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  #16   ^
Old Thu, Feb-06-20, 07:55
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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It's beyond me why they allow ghee but not dairy. That has nothing to do with keto, maybe some people have tolerance issues that makes ghee instead of butter necessary, but making it across the board is silly. Heavy cream might be problematic for some people wanting to be at a lower body weight, but personally I think it's less risky for overconsumption and easier to fit into your macros than peanuts.
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  #17   ^
Old Thu, Feb-06-20, 08:50
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Calianna Calianna is offline
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My whole point in even posting the story here is that they thought this was a whole different diet from regular keto, in that you really could eat it as a "plant based diet", since that seems to be the trendy buzz-word terminology to include all the different permutations of diet that are derived mostly from plants, whether they call themselves vegan, vegetarian, ovo-lacto-pescatarian or some combination of those exceptions to strict vegetarianism/veganism.

[Ironically, the truth of the matter is that SAD is for all intents and purposes plant based too, since practically everything you can buy these days is made from corn, wheat and/or soy, or contains either corn, wheat, or soy. The typical fast food meal is still based almost entirely on plants - sure there's a burger or some chicken nuggets in there somewhere, but we've seen the meals, know the ingredients used, done the math, and it's obvious that other than that little patty of meat or the bits of mechanically separated and glued back together bits of chicken in the nuggets, it's all plant derived carbs, and plant derived oils - hence, even the epitome of what's considered to be the worst diet possible is still plant based.]

But aside from that fact, the ketotorian diet was meant to appeal to the righteous eaters among us, those who proudly proclaim that they don't eat meats (beef, pork, chicken), that they're some permutation of "-tarian", or the most righteous of all, vegan. Whatever the case, they're sure they're eating a healthy plant based diet, meaning it's composed mostly of plants, and therefore the key to perfect health and perfect weight control. Which of course should cause one to question why they'd ever need a keto diet, if merely eating some version of a plant based diet is the key to all that is good...

And yet apparently there must have been some kind of jealousy there that people who eat meat can do a keto diet and lose weight quickly, or there would never have been a book written about doing keto on a plant based diet.

I had just about decided it would be nearly impossible to eat a vegan version of keto without nearly starving yourself to death (despite eating 75% fats), but went out searching for information on it, and came across this page of vegan keto recipes made without soy. Soy products were the big thing that I thought would probably make vegan keto nearly impossible, mainly because the net carbs are so high on those - you'd be using so much of your net carb count just on your protein that you wouldn't have enough carbs left over for more than a little of the allowed nut milk, and a handful or two of greens. But at least the recipes on there showed it was possible.



The thing that disturbed me about the vegan keto without soy page though is that they're counting heavily on the protein content of vegetables in most of the recipes. They're counting on that measly 2.5 g of protein in a cup of broccoli, or 1 g of protein in a cup of spinach to help see them through. Flax, hemp, and chia seeds do a good bit better on the protein count, but an ounce (compared to meat, that's a lot of any one of those to eat at one sitting) still only has about 10 g protein.


So I still don't see it as a sustainable way of eating. We have members here who have been eating carnivore for years. I somehow doubt that anyone doing ketotarian will be able to sustain such a low protein diet for more than a few months (if that long), especially if they're vegan.


The real problem is that if Ketotarian ends up being lumped in with regular keto (you know that will happen), we're likely to see even more media backlash against the sustainability and safety of keto, just because so many who are attempting to do it without animal products end up worse off in the end.
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  #18   ^
Old Thu, Feb-06-20, 09:27
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WereBear WereBear is offline
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Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
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I posted something recently about a diabetes plan that's all plant based. One lady who did well with Type 1 through two pregnancies, found it utterly unworkable, and she was miserable trying.

Which is exactly how I expect.

Now, there are people who apparently can extract every bit of protein from a plant-based diet, and then there is me, who can barely sustain life that way.
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  #19   ^
Old Thu, Feb-06-20, 10:21
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deirdra deirdra is offline
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Plan: vLC/GF,CF,SF
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
It's beyond me why they allow ghee but not dairy. That has nothing to do with keto, maybe some people have tolerance issues that makes ghee instead of butter necessary, but making it across the board is silly. Heavy cream might be problematic for some people wanting to be at a lower body weight, but personally I think it's less risky for overconsumption and easier to fit into your macros than peanuts.
It is the proteins and associated casomorphins in dairy that cause cravings in many and intolerances in some. This is why Atkins limited people to 4 teaspoons of cream in the 1972 book. Though I agree those who are not affected may be able to handle more. Intolerances often involve a stuffed up nose and phlegm in the throat, which people assume are "normal" until they give up dairy.
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  #20   ^
Old Thu, Feb-06-20, 10:23
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bevangel bevangel is offline
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Plan: modified adkins (sort of)
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As a low-carber who often entertains vegetarians and vegans in my home, I for one appreciate learning about the ketotarian diet!

I'm not saying it is sustainable on a long-term basis. (I agree that it doesn't allow for enough high quality protein and fats and the list of allowable foods is way too short!)

BUT, the list does gives me some good ideas for making meals for my vegan/vegetarian friends for a day or two when they're visiting. I am SO tired of tossing away the left-overs of the vegan/vegetarian meals I fix for my company. I can't tell you how many pounds of unfinished tofu, how many beans, and how much corn and pasta I've thrown away over the years.

But, if I stick with the ketotarian list when cooking for my vegan/vegetarian friends, hubby and I will be able to eat any leftovers... will just need to supplement the leftovers with some REAL MEAT and some healthy animal fats!
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  #21   ^
Old Thu, Feb-06-20, 12:54
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deirdra
It is the proteins and associated casomorphins in dairy that cause cravings in many and intolerances in some. This is why Atkins limited people to 4 teaspoons of cream in the 1972 book. Though I agree those who are not affected may be able to handle more. Intolerances often involve a stuffed up nose and phlegm in the throat, which people assume are "normal" until they give up dairy.


Sure. But peanut and nut intolerances/allergies might be just as common as dairy.

Personally--not only can I handle more, but getting most of my fat calories from heavy cream has actually given me much better weight loss, at a lower body weight, than Atkins with more restricted cream did.
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  #22   ^
Old Thu, Feb-06-20, 12:56
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WereBear WereBear is offline
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Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
Sure. But peanut and nut intolerances/allergies might be just as common as dairy.

Personally--not only can I handle more, but getting most of my fat calories from heavy cream has actually given me much better weight loss, at a lower body weight, than Atkins with more restricted cream did.


I also do well with cheese and heavy cream. The list of the foods I gave up is very long, though! And I never had a clue.

How many others might be in the same boat?
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  #23   ^
Old Thu, Feb-06-20, 12:58
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Dodger Dodger is offline
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Plan: Paleoish/Keto
Stats: 225/167/175 Male 71.5 inches
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It seems to me that most of the ketotarians foods would make good keto side dishes.
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  #24   ^
Old Thu, Feb-06-20, 17:07
Bob-a-rama's Avatar
Bob-a-rama Bob-a-rama is offline
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Plan: Keto (Atkins Induction)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodger
Vegetarians don't eat meat. Meat can mean many things in regards to food.

The Marriam-Webster dictionary defines meat as:

Definition of meat
1a: FOOD
especially : solid food as distinguished from drink
b: the edible part of something as distinguished from its covering (such as a husk or shell)
2: animal tissue considered especially as food:
a: FLESH sense 2
also : flesh of a mammal as opposed to fowl or fish
b: FLESH sense 1a
specifically : flesh of domesticated animals
3 archaic : MEAL entry 1 sense 1
especially : DINNER
4a: the core of something : HEART
b: PITH sense 2b
a novel with meat
5: favorite pursuit or interest

Definition 2 allows fish and egg to be meatless foods.

I was raised a Catholic and we were no allowed to eat meat on Fridays but fish and eggs were allowed since they were not meat.


I respectfully disagree

2: animal tissue considered especially as food - eggs are animal tissue, and yes I was brought up catholic too. And we had fried fish every Friday. I though it was called Fry-day. But fish is definitely animal flesh.

Since you brought up Webster:

Omnivore: one that is omnivorous

Omnivorous: feeding on both animal and vegetable substances

Still sounds like an omnivore diet to me.

I have a vegan friend who is actually quite disturbed about people eating eggs, dairy and other animal products and having the nerve to call themselves vegetarian. She says the only vegetarians are now called vegans and they had to change their name to vegan because of the vegetarian wanna-be people who eat animal products.

Bob
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  #25   ^
Old Thu, Feb-06-20, 19:36
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Calianna Calianna is offline
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Plan: Atkins-ish (hypoglycemia)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob-a-rama

I have a vegan friend who is actually quite disturbed about people eating eggs, dairy and other animal products and having the nerve to call themselves vegetarian. She says the only vegetarians are now called vegans and they had to change their name to vegan because of the vegetarian wanna-be people who eat animal products.

Bob


The very decision to change their name from vegetarian to vegan indicates that despite their previous history associated with the word, they decided to just let the egg and dairy eaters have it. If they had been determined to keep vegetarian all to themselves, they would have done whatever it took to force the egg and dairy eaters to come up with another name for themselves, even if it required taking the matter to court.

I understand that your vegan friend is upset to lose the accurately descriptive word for her way of eating. Words and word meanings often change over time though... My grandmother was appalled when she heard me use the word "tough" to indicate something was good, because to her the word only referred to someone who was a thug. I cringe hearing some of the words and phrases that the younger generations use these days. It's grating, because they no longer mean what they used to mean. The day is coming when their grandkids will use words and phrases that mean something entirely different from what they meant to today's teens and 20-somethings.
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  #26   ^
Old Fri, Feb-07-20, 03:29
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
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Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob-a-rama
I have a vegan friend who is actually quite disturbed about people eating eggs, dairy and other animal products and having the nerve to call themselves vegetarian. She says the only vegetarians are now called vegans and they had to change their name to vegan because of the vegetarian wanna-be people who eat animal products.

Bob


When I tried vegetarianism I was schooled by the ladies at the local health food store, who were trim and energetic eating this way, and were subtly disapproving when I kept "having problems" because somehow, I "wasn't doing it right."

It included eggs and cheese and STILL didn't work for me. That was official Vegetarianism. Vegans had not come upon the scene... and funnily enough, in that form it was considered extreme and unhealthy.

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  #27   ^
Old Fri, Feb-07-20, 07:34
Calianna's Avatar
Calianna Calianna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WereBear
When I tried vegetarianism I was schooled by the ladies at the local health food store, who were trim and energetic eating this way, and were subtly disapproving when I kept "having problems" because somehow, I "wasn't doing it right."

It included eggs and cheese and STILL didn't work for me. That was official Vegetarianism. Vegans had not come upon the scene... and funnily enough, in that form it was considered extreme and unhealthy.


By the time I'd heard of vegetarianism, that's the definition I'd always heard too. Having had no previous exposure to it, I just accepted what I heard, despite the name implying that vegetarians ate nothing but vegetables (which I had thought would be literally just vegetables - no fruit, no grains, no nuts, etc).

It was years later (decades? maybe!) when I started hearing ovo-lacto-vegetarian used to indicate those who ate a primarily plant based diet, but also ate eggs and dairy, and even later when I first heard pescatarian to describe those who had also added fish to their primarily plant based diet. Haven't heard either of those terms used in quite a while though.

In fact, when my one kid went veggie for a while a few years ago, she ate eggs and some dairy with it. I said "Oh, so you're not really a vegetarian, you're actually an ovo-lacto-vegetarian." She looked at me as if I'd lost my mind. Exasperated with her clearly out-of-touch, old fashioned mother, she said "Mom, I'm not vegan." She'd actually never heard the term ovo-lacto-vegetarian before. Like WB, when she began eating that way, she was taught that eggs and dairy were an accepted (and actually very important) part of the vegetarian diet. When she eventually added some fish into her diet too, I said "So that makes you a pescatarian" - again, the same "what on earth are you talking about, Mother?" look on her face, because the definition of vegetarian has been expanded (or watered down, if you prefer to look at it that way) to only mean a primarily plant based diet, with the occasional egg, and dairy product, and that even the occasional piece of fish is acceptable within the current definition of vegetarian.


All I can say is that terminology and the meaning of words tends to change over time. I've found over the years that rather than refuse to change how I use those words, I try to adapt for the sake of clear communication. (although I'm certainly not adverse to preceding my acceptance of new terminology or definitions with "Back in my day..." , so at least they understand why I initially took the word in question to mean something entirely different.)
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  #28   ^
Old Fri, Feb-07-20, 09:38
Bob-a-rama's Avatar
Bob-a-rama Bob-a-rama is offline
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Plan: Keto (Atkins Induction)
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I guess I'm a lacto-ovo-fisho-beefo-porko vegetarian because I don't eat chicken. That puts me in the self-elitist vegetarian group just like the lacto folks

(don't get upset, it's just a bit of satire)
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  #29   ^
Old Fri, Feb-07-20, 10:46
Calianna's Avatar
Calianna Calianna is offline
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Plan: Atkins-ish (hypoglycemia)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob-a-rama
I guess I'm a lacto-ovo-fisho-beefo-porko vegetarian because I don't eat chicken. That puts me in the self-elitist vegetarian group just like the lacto folks

(don't get upset, it's just a bit of satire)






Yes - but do you eat a PLANT BASED diet, using those animal foods in minimal amounts, and only occasionally?



I only eat animal based foods occasionally... just a few animal based foods daily.



Unfortunately, that means I don't get to join the ranks of those who can appropriate "vegetarian" to describe my way of eating, because I sometimes go days without eating any plant based foods.

Last edited by Calianna : Fri, Feb-07-20 at 10:53.
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  #30   ^
Old Fri, Feb-07-20, 11:00
Nrracing Nrracing is offline
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So my question is this, I know vegan, and plant based people. Why do they eat cakes, cookies, chips, breads, all the crap still? I have some inlaws that ate meat like mad, and the women was very slim in the military and fit and toned. the husband was the same, but they decided to go vegan, but you still drink and eat bad stuff?
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