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  #1   ^
Old Thu, Jan-02-20, 06:56
Benay's Avatar
Benay Benay is offline
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Plan: Protein Power/Atkins
Stats: 250/167/175 Female 5 feet 6 inches
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Location: Prescott, Arizona, USA
Default Difference between "not eating enough" and IF

I use NANY as my guide to stay under 20 gm carb/day.

At the end of the chapter on Induction there are a couple of pages of questions on "how you are doing." If no weight has been lost on Induction, the authors ask several questions: one of which is "Are you eating enough?"

The explanation is that the body goes into a defensive mode if it feels undernourished, so hangs onto every fat cell it has. Interesting concept.

In IF:Intermittent Fasting, doesn't the quantity of food eaten in a day also go down? Yet it is suggested for post menopausal women to lose weight.

How to rectify these two seemingly different suggestions?
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  #2   ^
Old Thu, Jan-02-20, 07:09
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Ambulo Ambulo is online now
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Plan: LerC, TRE, IF
Stats: 150/120/120 Female 64 inches
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Progress: 100%
Location: the North, England
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With IF, the quantity of food eaten can go down without the metabolism slowing, because insulin stays low and the body can pull calories from the fat stores. Even better if combined with low carb of course. Contrast this with a low calorie diet, where small snacks and meals are consumed throughout the day. Constant insulin spikes, and when insulin is high, the body cannot access fat stores, so if the dieter white knuckles through the hunger, the metabolism has to be slowed so that the body can manage on what is being eaten.
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  #3   ^
Old Thu, Jan-02-20, 07:43
Benay's Avatar
Benay Benay is offline
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Posts: 876
 
Plan: Protein Power/Atkins
Stats: 250/167/175 Female 5 feet 6 inches
BF:
Progress: 111%
Location: Prescott, Arizona, USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambulo
With IF, the quantity of food eaten can go down without the metabolism slowing, because insulin stays low and the body can pull calories from the fat stores. Even better if combined with low carb of course. Contrast this with a low calorie diet, where small snacks and meals are consumed throughout the day. Constant insulin spikes, and when insulin is high, the body cannot access fat stores, so if the dieter white knuckles through the hunger, the metabolism has to be slowed so that the body can manage on what is being eaten.


My question dealt with 2 low carb programs - not with one low carb and one low calorie
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  #4   ^
Old Thu, Jan-02-20, 08:46
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Benay Benay is offline
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Posts: 876
 
Plan: Protein Power/Atkins
Stats: 250/167/175 Female 5 feet 6 inches
BF:
Progress: 111%
Location: Prescott, Arizona, USA
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Clarification - comparing Atkins Induction (Ketogenic Diet) with IF

Isn't eating too little in a day also an issue with IF?
If not, why is it considered an issue with Keto/Atkins Induction?

Why does the body think it is in starvation mode with Keto but not with IF?

Seems illogical
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  #5   ^
Old Thu, Jan-02-20, 09:55
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Calianna Calianna is offline
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Posts: 1,846
 
Plan: Atkins-ish (hypoglycemia)
Stats: 000/000/000 Female 63
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Progress: 50%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benay
I use NANY as my guide to stay under 20 gm carb/day.

At the end of the chapter on Induction there are a couple of pages of questions on "how you are doing." If no weight has been lost on Induction, the authors ask several questions: one of which is "Are you eating enough?"

The explanation is that the body goes into a defensive mode if it feels undernourished, so hangs onto every fat cell it has. Interesting concept.


In IF:Intermittent Fasting, doesn't the quantity of food eaten in a day also go down? Yet it is suggested for post menopausal women to lose weight.

How to rectify these two seemingly different suggestions?



Some people are so afraid of dietary fat, and the accompanying pitifully small protein recommendations (due to the last 40 years of low fat/low cholesterol food pyramid/My Plate propaganda) that they really are eating far too little, even when trying to do induction. Yes, Atkins tells you to be unafraid of fat, and eat enough protein to feel full, but sometimes the old teachings are difficult to shake, especially if you're used to low fat diets, with their strict limits on protein and fat.



So in that situation, let's say for instance that instead of eating a bowl of cereal with fat free milk and a big glass of orange juice for breakfast, when they start induction, they're eating a spinach omelet with 2 egg whites cooked in 1/4 tsp butter for breakfast. For lunch they still have a salad, but instead of just greens and fat free dressing with a big crusty fat free roll on the side, they'll have 2 oz albacore tuna on salad greens with low fat dressing; For dinner, they have 3 oz boneless skinless chicken breast cooked in 1/2 tsp olive oil, with plain steamed broccoli on the side, skipping the big baked potato that they used to eat with it. Yes, they're definitely eating much lower carb than before, but it's also still extremely low in fat, too low in protein, and even lower in overall calories - they haven't done anything other than allow the tiniest bit of fat, and cut back on carbs. The result is way too low in calories to lose weight effectively, because it's so low in calories, the body can go into a protective starvation mode. (That being said, if you ate that way for a week, you'd still very likely lose any excess fluid, due to the carb restriction, but after that, weight loss would slow because of the protective mechanism that conserves energy to prevent starvation)



A decade or so ago, I was doing LC, but unintentionally eating just a couple hundred calories below my BMR



[BMR, basal metabolic rate, along with the variables involved in estimated caloric needs is explained here You can enter gender, weight, height, and age to determine approximate BMR, plus the additional calories expended at various activity levels. You want to avoid caloric intakes below your BMR if at all possible.]


In addition, I was exercising at least an hour daily, which increased my maintenance calorie needs (the amount I would have needed to maintain my weight while exercising). I lost weight for a while, but then it stopped - my body rebelled after a time, apparently sensing a near-famine situation, since it wasn't getting enough to supply it's basic caloric needs. It wasn't a caloric deficit situation nearly as bad as described above with the person trying to do LC while not getting nearly enough protein, fat, or calories, but it was low enough that at some point, my body decided it was too much of a sustained deficit, even if it was only by a couple hundred calories daily, so my body went into protective mode, and I stopped losing.



With IF, there's no calorie limit - the real limit is just to stay within the window of time they've allowed for eating each day. If you do IF while low carbing, it can limit your calorie intake to a certain extent, since you're limiting the number of hours you allow yourself to eat. If you were to intentionally seriously restrict your calories in addition to limiting your carbs on IF, depending on your basal metabolic rate, that could potentially also prevent weight loss. But since you're free on IF to eat as much as you want during your eating window, that's not as likely to happen.
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  #6   ^
Old Thu, Jan-02-20, 11:14
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Benay Benay is offline
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Posts: 876
 
Plan: Protein Power/Atkins
Stats: 250/167/175 Female 5 feet 6 inches
BF:
Progress: 111%
Location: Prescott, Arizona, USA
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I went to the BMR calculator - but I find I am too old for the calculator and had to take 6 years off my age.

The calculation gave me 1500 Cal/day - a figure I generally work with

But when I looked at the chart for activity level - and I entered "sedentary" the calorie allowance went up to 1800 K/day! Odd that.
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  #7   ^
Old Thu, Jan-02-20, 11:25
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GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
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Plan: Very LC, Higher Protein
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
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Location: Herndon, VA
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IF, if done correctly, is not accompanied by a reduced metabolic rate. Zero calorie consumption with IF does not slow the body, which happens on calorie reduction, not fasting. Done correctly means not considering a calorie reduction a true fast. When IF is done correctly, there are liquids: water, tea, coffee that are acceptable that contain no calories or proteins or fats. See Fungs IDM guidelines, as they are clear in terms of what constitutes IF.
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  #8   ^
Old Thu, Jan-02-20, 17:00
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Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is online now
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Plan: atkins, carnivore 2023
Stats: 200/211/163 Female 5'8"
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Progress: -30%
Location: Massachusetts
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IF is regardless of the foods eaten during the TRE.

The longer from last meal to the next meal, like dinner to lunch, the longer the body is in ketosis.

Some combine a keto diet AND IF.

I add fasting per Dr Fung.

Programs like the biggest looser using high exercise and limiting food resulted in permanent decreace in BMR. NOT GOOD. Leaves me concerned with a diet with too little food.

Fasting bypasses this issue. Eating lots of food but staying in keto imho is the way to go.
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  #9   ^
Old Thu, Jan-02-20, 19:57
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Calianna Calianna is offline
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Posts: 1,846
 
Plan: Atkins-ish (hypoglycemia)
Stats: 000/000/000 Female 63
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Progress: 50%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benay
I went to the BMR calculator - but I find I am too old for the calculator and had to take 6 years off my age.

The calculation gave me 1500 Cal/day - a figure I generally work with

But when I looked at the chart for activity level - and I entered "sedentary" the calorie allowance went up to 1800 K/day! Odd that.



That's because BMR is based on how much it takes to keep the most minimal body functions going (brain waves, breathing, heart beat, organs) - basically you're completely at rest, even your digestive system is inactive. The 300 calorie increase for a sedentary person is because your digestive system is active, and you're not perfectly motionless 24 hours a day - even the bedridden move a few muscles, so in spite of being considered sedentary because you're not actively exercising, you're using more energy than just what your body needs to keep your organs barely functioning.

It goes into some more explanation of that further down the page, and says that BMR as well as caloric need for maintenance is still an estimate at best anyway, but it does give you somewhere to start, to make sure you're not undershooting your minimum caloric needs.
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  #10   ^
Old Sat, Jan-04-20, 04:33
Benay's Avatar
Benay Benay is offline
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Posts: 876
 
Plan: Protein Power/Atkins
Stats: 250/167/175 Female 5 feet 6 inches
BF:
Progress: 111%
Location: Prescott, Arizona, USA
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Although there has been a lot of good information here - I still do not feel my original question has been answered

Last edited by Benay : Sat, Jan-04-20 at 05:43.
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  #11   ^
Old Sat, Jan-04-20, 05:42
Benay's Avatar
Benay Benay is offline
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Posts: 876
 
Plan: Protein Power/Atkins
Stats: 250/167/175 Female 5 feet 6 inches
BF:
Progress: 111%
Location: Prescott, Arizona, USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calianna
That's because BMR is based on how much it takes to keep the most minimal body functions going (brain waves, breathing, heart beat, organs) - basically you're completely at rest, even your digestive system is inactive. The 300 calorie increase for a sedentary person is because your digestive system is active, and you're not perfectly motionless 24 hours a day - even the bedridden move a few muscles, so in spite of being considered sedentary because you're not actively exercising, you're using more energy than just what your body needs to keep your organs barely functioning.

It goes into some more explanation of that further down the page, and says that BMR as well as caloric need for maintenance is still an estimate at best anyway, but it does give you somewhere to start, to make sure you're not undershooting your minimum caloric needs.


Unfortunately, Caliana, this explanation does not really explain why the difference between 1500 calories/a day and 1800/day. Are you saying that at my height and weight and lying comatose in bed I am expending 1500 calories a day?

And definitely why, if I stay below 1500/day (say 1200) I don't lose.

But then, since I am too old to be calculating my BMR anyway, I guess it really doesn't matter.
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  #12   ^
Old Sat, Jan-04-20, 09:00
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WereBear WereBear is online now
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Posts: 14,599
 
Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
Stats: 220/125/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 136%
Location: USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benay
In IF:Intermittent Fasting, doesn't the quantity of food eaten in a day also go down?


No.

I often do an eating window of 5-6 hours. In that eating window I eat all three meals. Usually as two meals, at either end of the window.

I don't track calories on low carb. When I do track, my calories don't matter. A decade ago, pre-menopausal, it went like this:

Carbs = 32/Calories = 1625 AND I didn't lose

Carbs = 22/Calories = 1825 AND I started losing again

It is NOT calories in/calories out as we've been told. This year, post-menopausal, let me check my first few months of keto/IF, which is when I stopped tracking.

A day in January I had cheese, Italian cold cuts, eggs, and olives. Calories were 1324, carbs were 10.

A day in February I had cheese, Italian cold cuts, and a pound of roast beef. Calories were 1,722, carbs were 9.

A day in March I ate beef, eggs, cream and olives. Calories were 2,110, carbs were 2.

That's the way to do it
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  #13   ^
Old Sat, Jan-04-20, 09:32
Benay's Avatar
Benay Benay is offline
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Posts: 876
 
Plan: Protein Power/Atkins
Stats: 250/167/175 Female 5 feet 6 inches
BF:
Progress: 111%
Location: Prescott, Arizona, USA
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So, if I am understanding you correctly, out of a 24 hour day, you allow yourself to eat only within a contiguous 5-6 hours.

Hour 1, you eat a full meal
Hour 6, you eat a full meal
Around hour 3 1/2 you eat another meal (are you really hungry enough to eat a meal 3 hours after a full meal? Just curious.)

I am impressed with the # of calories you were able to consume in a day on IF and yet lose weight

(For the nay-sayers, calories are a useful tool for tracking and not to be condemned out of hand)

Thanks very much for sharing your stats. It helps me visualize better how IF works.
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  #14   ^
Old Sat, Jan-04-20, 10:30
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bluesinger bluesinger is offline
Doing My Best
Posts: 4,924
 
Plan: LC/CancerRecovery
Stats: 170/135/130 Female 62 inches
BF:24%
Progress: 88%
Location: Nevada Desert, USA
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I'm 74 and following the Fung Protocol led me to the loss of my hardest chunk of weight in 2015. Of all the pictures on his website, this is the one that made the most impression on me. It's all about the insulin. Insulin makes us fat. Every time we eat, our body releases insulin. Fewer instances of eating, fewer insulin spikes. More hours of fasting, more hours the body burns fat. When not in a fasting state, our bodies burn the food we consumed.



I don't count/measure any more because I've been doing this a very l-o-n-g time AND I'm in maintenance. I eat a lot of food which is calorie dense. Yes, sometimes I don't eat enough and when I catch myself doing that, I try to remedy the situation.

For me, this is not a sprint, it's a marathon, and I just keep experimenting with timing to see what serves me best. I certainly don't know what's best for anybody else, and support all programs which lead to good health.
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  #15   ^
Old Sat, Jan-04-20, 11:19
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is online now
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Posts: 14,599
 
Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
Stats: 220/125/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 136%
Location: USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benay
So, if I am understanding you correctly, out of a 24 hour day, you allow yourself to eat only within a contiguous 5-6 hours.

Hour 1, you eat a full meal
Hour 6, you eat a full meal
Around hour 3 1/2 you eat another meal (are you really hungry enough to eat a meal 3 hours after a full meal? Just curious.)


It's more like Hour 1, I eat 1.5 meals, hour 6, I eat 1.5 meals. But it's not a heaping plate: it's more like they are dense meals. Protein and fat. Very satisfying.

It's also flexible. If I don't eat enough, and my eating window has ended, I might feel hungry. I drink some green tea and take some salt because this might be a L-theanine or salt deficiency, or I might just be thirsty, but I'm usually good about that. But if I'm still hungry, I go ahead and eat. The real limit is not eating for the 2-3 hours before bed. I usually finish eating 4-6 hours before bed.

I don't go to bed hungry any more!

Like this morning I had a thick, hand-sized steak and 2 eggs around 7:30 am, and now it's noon and I'm having a roast beef sandwich (on a coconut wrap) and likely, I won't be hungry again until tomorrow.

It's AWESOME. And this is because of lots of FAT. My morning coffee gets a chunk of coconut oil the size of a pecan with heavy cream. The eggs were scrambled in butter. The sandwich was 1/4 pound of deli roast beef and a generous chunk of real blue cheese spread all over it, a small amount of arugula, and two tablespoons of Primal Kitchen garlic aioli.

It bumps the calories, but lowers the carbs. It's what makes the magic happen.
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