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  #46   ^
Old Wed, Jan-22-20, 04:54
Benay's Avatar
Benay Benay is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 876
 
Plan: Protein Power/Atkins
Stats: 250/167/175 Female 5 feet 6 inches
BF:
Progress: 111%
Location: Prescott, Arizona, USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
Dr Westman's diet is 3 cups of vegetables from his allowed list of foods. Seriously you do not need to count any macros, nor subtract any fiber. But if you want to make life more complicated, two tips:

If you click on the little g. circle in three colors (low, med, high carb levels) on DietDoctor Recipes...you see Fiber under Net Carbs. Add it back and that is total carb count. You can also filter all the recipes with "only Keto" and get only recipes with very low carb counts that work. This is the way UK and European food labels are stated (maybe rest of world too?) it is the US that requires math to figure it out. Not to confuse the issue, but carb calculations differ: https://www.esha.com/how-carbs-are-...rent-countries/



As for that chart of vegetables, they are all allowed..with these limits: 2 cups salad greens, 1 cup cooked vegetables, 6 olives, avocado 1/2 per day. Avocado is only 1/2 per day because you are right, a whole avocado is 17g carbs, 13 g fiber.


But if you want to obsess about vegetable carbs (none of us got fat eating too much zucchini) , Google to the rescue! Type "Carbs in vegetable x" into your Google Search Bar, the results at top are Total Carbs from the USDA Nutrition Database, with a drop down menu of various serving sizes. Then if you want the total and fiber, click on "more at" and a full nutrition label pops up. Ten years ago, the Atkins company sent a book with total and net carbs in their starter kit, but the internet has leaped beyond my old paper and pencil method. If you have a copy of the "famous" 2002 DANDR edition...that has total and net in the back.


If I could lose easily, I would not have to "obsess" over every carb calorie. I lost 10 pounds - give or take a 2 pound weight loss or gain - since Nov 21 when I climbed back on the wagon. Please don't lecture me about counting calories and carb grams. I am trying to find out why I am not losing weight while following all the instructions including NANY. So I use a computer program to enter all the data from weighing and measuring everything I eat. I prefer FACTS to opinions. I am on a self discovery journey and if I want to count carb grams I will. If this is being obsessive - so be it.

One size does not fit all
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  #47   ^
Old Wed, Jan-22-20, 09:00
Calianna's Avatar
Calianna Calianna is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,889
 
Plan: Atkins-ish (hypoglycemia)
Stats: 000/000/000 Female 63
BF:
Progress: 50%
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One thing with the nutrition data base information is that the results it provides are still only an estimate. They sometimes provide different stats for the time of year the food was harvested. Just as a few examples of possible variations, there are some foods that have more calories/carbs harvested later in the season, than if harvested earlier; a dry growing season will result in a smaller but sweeter (more carbs per weight) fruit, a wet growing season will result in a larger, juicier, but less sweet fruit. If the fruit is out of season and been stored for months, it will have lost some of it's moisture, meaning it will still have the same amount of sugar and carbs as when it was harvested, but will weigh a little less.



The variety of that food can make a difference - I'm sure you're not using grapes because of the carb content, but just as an example cotton candy grapes have nearly twice as many calories and carbs as regular green grapes.



Exact serving size will make a difference - usually the serving is measured in grams, or by volume (sometimes it's a cup of 1/2" cubes, sometimes a cup of the pureed food - very different amounts of food, given that the cup of pureed food will not have the air spaces that the cup of 1/2" cubes will have).



Using the example of an avocado, the stats will based on a certain type of avocado (Florida avocados have different stats from California avocados), and that the flesh of the avocado weighs a certain number of grams (weighed after the seed and skin have been removed). But there's also stats based on the average of all commercial varieties of avocado - each category of avocado provides slightly different stats.

If you want your carb grams and calories to be as accurate as possible, and not just somewhere in the ballpark, then weighing and measuring everything will be necessary, as well as being sure that the category of each food you enter is the one you're eating, as accurately as possible.

Even then it's not going to be exact - the oldest nutrition stats are based on calculations determined 100 (or more) years ago. Some have not been updated to reflect newer hybrid or GMO varieties of produce, or changes in livestock feeding practices that could change the fat content (and therefore the calorie content) of the food. For example, pork is far different from what it was even 50 years ago - they're now feeding pigs a much lower carb feed, to reduce the amount of marbling in the meat. Who knows what other changes in livestock production, and changes in crop production have made? Many changes have never been accounted for in the nutrition stats, unless done by some independent producer - Eggland's Best eggs proudly proclaims that their eggs are lower in cholesterol than other eggs, because they have done the independent research to determine that they're different from standard nutrition stats. Just to give you an idea of the slight differences since the official USDA stats were established, some of the stats Eggland's uses for "regular eggs" on their website are different from the USDA stats for regular eggs.


~~~

I wasn't really clear on what plan you were using - your profile said you were doing Atkins, but in some of your posts you didn't seem clear on whether you're counting total carbs or net carbs. Now I see you say you're referencing NANY, which deducts fiber to result in net carbs. I wasn't sure why you were using two different carb count sources (Westman vs Diet Doctor - one saying to count total carbs, the other saying to deduct fiber). Atkins original plan is based on total carbs, NANY is based on net. Even if you're using NANY as your reference guide (the basic concept of LC is still the same as the '72 version), you can still decide to do it using total carbs. Even if fiber supposedly doesn't count, everyone is different, and your own experience is what matters. I'm still not exactly sure whether you're using total or net - and it doesn't really matter which one you use. What matters is picking one way of counting your carbs, and sticking to that way, and deciding on a carb count to stay under using that method.

~~~~

As far as calories, I know I referenced BMR as the number you don't want to go under, and made assumptions (based on the slight reduction in BMR between age 60 and 80, and your out of range age) about your probable BMR. What counts though is your own experience about calorie level and what minimum and maximum you need to continue to lose weight. So you're right to want to find an effective calorie level, the BMR stuff is just a place to begin trying to figure out your best calorie level for weight loss.


Quote:
I lost 10 pounds - give or take a 2 pound weight loss or gain - since Nov 21 when I climbed back on the wagon.

Question though - you said you lost 10 lbs since Nov 21st. Today is Jan 22nd, so that's 10 lbs in 2 months - actually not a bad average per week, especially given your age and mobility issues. I know it's much more difficult to lose weight as you get older. (I'm almost 20 years younger than you are, a little more mobile, and it's continually become more difficult to lose weight as the years have gone by, so I don't expect it to get any easier over the next 2 decades, assuming I live that long.)

My question though - when did the weight loss stop? If it's only been a few weeks, it's possible that this is just a temporary stall that will correct itself if you continue on with your previous course, once your body stabilizes and decides that it's ok to let go of more weight.


Just some of my thoughts on the matter though - take or leave any of my comments as you see fit.
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  #48   ^
Old Wed, Jan-22-20, 09:30
Benay's Avatar
Benay Benay is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 876
 
Plan: Protein Power/Atkins
Stats: 250/167/175 Female 5 feet 6 inches
BF:
Progress: 111%
Location: Prescott, Arizona, USA
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Calianna - thanks for your input - yes the nutritional stats are old and may not be all that accurate - but it's all we have a the moment. I did not know that about Eggland- fascinating!

Net versus total carbs - my computer program does provide total carb grams as well as fiber grams. As you say, NANY supports net carbs and that is where I started when I climbed back aboard. Now I am looking at total carb grams a la Dr Westman's page 4 guidelines.

Hx: I lost 8 1/2 pounds by November 27 (starting Nov 21). I assume water weight. It has been up and down ever since - lose 2 gain 2. So essentially I have a see saw plateau I am trying to break.

I have looked at BMR as a way to calculate goal weight and # total daily calories. I eat under most days but periodically eat more. It is a slow slog.

Haas avocados are in season. The carb grams cited by Diet Doctor do not specify Haas or Florida but their calculations look like net carbs. Their carb count is much lower than my computer program. Unfortunately my computer program does not discriminate varieties either. I will have to look up Haas on the net and enter it into my program. Thanks for the reminder.

I am able to enter foods into my computer data base -the manufactured types are easy since they have nutrition labels, but I go to nutrition data bases for other things. Weighing is the only way I know to keep myself honest about what I am eating. It is so easy to be sloppy.

Thanks again for your thoughts - they are very helpful. I do appreciate them.
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  #49   ^
Old Wed, Jan-22-20, 10:26
Calianna's Avatar
Calianna Calianna is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,889
 
Plan: Atkins-ish (hypoglycemia)
Stats: 000/000/000 Female 63
BF:
Progress: 50%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benay
Calianna - thanks for your input - yes the nutritional stats are old and may not be all that accurate - but it's all we have a the moment. I did not know that about Eggland- fascinating!

Net versus total carbs - my computer program does provide total carb grams as well as fiber grams. As you say, NANY supports net carbs and that is where I started when I climbed back aboard. Now I am looking at total carb grams a la Dr Westman's page 4 guidelines.

Hx: I lost 8 1/2 pounds by November 27 (starting Nov 21). I assume water weight. It has been up and down ever since - lose 2 gain 2. So essentially I have a see saw plateau I am trying to break.

I have looked at BMR as a way to calculate goal weight and # total daily calories. I eat under most days but periodically eat more. It is a slow slog.

Haas avocados are in season. The carb grams cited by Diet Doctor do not specify Haas or Florida but their calculations look like net carbs. Their carb count is much lower than my computer program. Unfortunately my computer program does not discriminate varieties either. I will have to look up Haas on the net and enter it into my program. Thanks for the reminder.

I am able to enter foods into my computer data base -the manufactured types are easy since they have nutrition labels, but I go to nutrition data bases for other things. Weighing is the only way I know to keep myself honest about what I am eating. It is so easy to be sloppy.

Thanks again for your thoughts - they are very helpful. I do appreciate them.


I personally don't bother to use carb counters from diet sites, not even LC sites - just my preference though, since different sites often have conflicting information, don't necessarily specify the variety of the food, and as you just pointed out, on some it's not even clear whether they're using total carbs or net carbs.



My go-to for nutrition info on the web is nutritiondata.com. I hate the number of ads on it, but it provides a lot of options for varieties, and servings sizes within varieties. It's been ages since I've updated the adobe flash needed for the graphs near the top. They're pretty graphs, but I don't update adobe, since I don't need to see them, because there's plenty of information listed in the charts below that, with a huge amount of nutrition information available in an easy to follow format. It's just what I'm used to using though - I'm sure there are other sites that are just as good, probably even without the ads.



On my phone, I have an app called Nutrition Facts. There are several apps called that - the one I use is by Yuku, shows a green apple for the thumbnail, and the free version has a function that not only has mostly all the same parameters as on nutritiondata.com, but also allows you to compare the stats of two foods side by side. No judgements about your diet choices on that app either. (most nutrition data apps seem to assume you're only looking for low fat, low cholesterol foods, or expect you to enter in all kinds of other information about your weight, activity level, etc, so they can tell you what they think you should be eating and doing :rolleyes Unfortunately, I now see that app hasn't been updated since 2017... Hmm, maybe the nutrition data base itself hasn't been updated since then? Or maybe it's just because I haven't sprung for the paid version. I may look into some of the other apps and see how they compare.
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  #50   ^
Old Thu, Jan-23-20, 04:58
Benay's Avatar
Benay Benay is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 876
 
Plan: Protein Power/Atkins
Stats: 250/167/175 Female 5 feet 6 inches
BF:
Progress: 111%
Location: Prescott, Arizona, USA
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Once again, Calianna, thank you for all this iseful information. I will look up that website.
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  #51   ^
Old Thu, Jan-23-20, 07:42
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 14,673
 
Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
Stats: 220/130/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 129%
Location: USA
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I use Carb Manager on the free setting, if you have an iPhone. I made a review of it here:

https://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=481854
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  #52   ^
Old Thu, Jan-23-20, 08:45
Calianna's Avatar
Calianna Calianna is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,889
 
Plan: Atkins-ish (hypoglycemia)
Stats: 000/000/000 Female 63
BF:
Progress: 50%
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Thanks, WB. The carb manager app seems to be available for Android too, so I'll check it out.



I've heard a lot of good things about the Stupid Simple Keto app too.
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  #53   ^
Old Thu, Jan-23-20, 09:02
Bonnie OFS Bonnie OFS is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,573
 
Plan: Dr. Bernstein
Stats: 188/150/135 Female 5 ft 4 inches
BF:
Progress: 72%
Location: NE WA
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My favorite carb counter site is nutritionix.com/database. Easy to use.
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  #54   ^
Old Thu, Jan-23-20, 09:32
Benay's Avatar
Benay Benay is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 876
 
Plan: Protein Power/Atkins
Stats: 250/167/175 Female 5 feet 6 inches
BF:
Progress: 111%
Location: Prescott, Arizona, USA
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If these are computer programs to help track carbs, proteins, calories etc - I already have one I like and use. Thanks
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  #55   ^
Old Thu, Jan-23-20, 13:55
Calianna's Avatar
Calianna Calianna is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,889
 
Plan: Atkins-ish (hypoglycemia)
Stats: 000/000/000 Female 63
BF:
Progress: 50%
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Some are websites (nutritiondata.com, and nutritionix.com/database - can't remember if any others were mentioned) which provide quick access to the USDA database information. For those, you'd need to have a separate way of keeping track of your macros - a computer program, or a detailed pencil and paper log of each day's intake.

The others mentioned (Carb Manager, and Stupid Simple Keto) are applications which can be downloaded to a smart phone or tablet/iPad, which will keep track of everything for you - they provide the macro content of any foods you enter as part of your daily intake, or enter all information for a food simply by on scanning the bar code on a grocery item. They'll also automatically keep track of macro percentages for the user. I think one (or maybe both of them - I'm getting what each one provides mixed up, since I just looked at them in more detail this morning) also provide other relevant information, such as daily exercise, water intake, sleep, sodium intake, etc. Obviously if you don't happen to have a smartphone or tablet/iPad, the apps won't be relevant for you.

I hope you're not offended if we provide information for things you don't want, need, or aren't interested in using. Honestly, topic drift happens. We're all just sharing whatever information we have on here for anyone who might be currently reading along or participating on this thread. The information on here might also help someone who does a search for such information later on, even months or years from now. Like anything else in life, we glean whatever information we can use from what's provided, and leave the rest behind in case someone else needs it.
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  #56   ^
Old Fri, Jan-24-20, 05:06
Benay's Avatar
Benay Benay is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 876
 
Plan: Protein Power/Atkins
Stats: 250/167/175 Female 5 feet 6 inches
BF:
Progress: 111%
Location: Prescott, Arizona, USA
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My personal preference is to use my computer rather than my phone

I am satisfied with my nutritional calculation computer (Diet Power) program it is free. It works for me. I have used other programs and did not like them as well.

Despite being somewhere around the 20 total carb grams daily, I remain on a plateau. Frustrating.

So just trying to stay under 20 total carb grams a day, my weight is not budging since Nov 26, I need to find out what is going on.
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  #57   ^
Old Fri, Jan-24-20, 05:28
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 14,673
 
Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
Stats: 220/130/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 129%
Location: USA
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That is certainly a low number, Benay. Can you offer a sample menu? That often helps forum members find things that they didn't realize were traps.
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  #58   ^
Old Fri, Jan-24-20, 06:15
Benay's Avatar
Benay Benay is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 876
 
Plan: Protein Power/Atkins
Stats: 250/167/175 Female 5 feet 6 inches
BF:
Progress: 111%
Location: Prescott, Arizona, USA
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Yesterday --
Bkfst: Zone protein shake 3 gm carb - 30 gm protein

lunch: bacon 1 oz - cheddar cheese 1 oz - leftover steak 3 oz -- macadamias 1 oz

carb gm 12 fiber gm 5

Not necessarily a typical day - just yesterday

Edited to add:

3 C caffeinated coffee - black no sugar or cream
Rest of the day - water
Last meal 2pm, first meal today 6 am
Bacon cooked the lazy way - microwave. As many slices as will fit on a paper towel on a plate. Weight after cooking.

Last edited by Benay : Fri, Jan-24-20 at 07:48.
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  #59   ^
Old Fri, Jan-24-20, 10:52
deirdra's Avatar
deirdra deirdra is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,328
 
Plan: vLC/GF,CF,SF
Stats: 197/136/150 Female 66 inches
BF:
Progress: 130%
Location: Alberta
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Perhaps you are sensitive to (inflamed by) the dairy proteins in the Zone protein shake and cheddar cheese. I never could lose my last 15 lbs on any diet until I gave up dairy proteins. I can handle a bit of dairy fat, up to 2T butter or ghee a day.
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  #60   ^
Old Sun, Jan-26-20, 06:38
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 14,673
 
Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
Stats: 220/130/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 129%
Location: USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benay
Yesterday --
Bkfst: Zone protein shake 3 gm carb - 30 gm protein

lunch: bacon 1 oz - cheddar cheese 1 oz - leftover steak 3 oz -- macadamias 1 oz

carb gm 12 fiber gm 5

Not necessarily a typical day - just yesterday

Edited to add:

3 C caffeinated coffee - black no sugar or cream
Rest of the day - water
Last meal 2pm, first meal today 6 am
Bacon cooked the lazy way - microwave. As many slices as will fit on a paper towel on a plate. Weight after cooking.


Hi Benay:

I checked the Zone protein shake ingredients. What is more than 2% is:
Quote:
Water, Milk Protein Isolate, Calcium Caseinate, which is milk proteins, essentially.


Personally, I found whey smoothies, which are wonderful for tasty convenience, got digested fast and furious in my body. Which prompts my pancreas to release TANKER CAR OF INSULIN, which makes me hungry.

I've become very aware of food that makes me hungry. Then, no matter how other people handle things, my body is not seeing this substance as FOOD. I get along with natural, high fat dairy like cheese. But not whey protein.

Quote:
Less than 2% of: Cocoa (Processed with Alkali), Artificial Flavor, Sunflower Oil, Inulin, Maltodextrin, Sucralose, Acesulfame Potassium, Cellulose Gel, Cellulose Gum, Carrageenan


Well, we have THREE artificial sweeteners PLUS fiber. All of this is considered "indigestible." But... is it?

In short, actually indigestible means it creates gas. Beans are a famous example. However, my own experiments with such pre-fab Frankenfoods was not good. I'm an EPIC digester. I either get cramps and gas, or, if I do not: I discovered I was actually digesting this indigestible stuff, which made it carby, which meant I was easily doubling the carb count I thought I was ingesting.

AND

Quote:
Artificial Flavor, Sunflower Oil


Are known to be highly inflammatory.

If you can fit a blender, or even a shaker ball container, in your kitchen and try making your own smoothies, where you control the ingredients, it might be possible to duplicate this without sabotaging your goals.
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