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  #16   ^
Old Sat, Jul-20-19, 11:40
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is online now
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Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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I don't actually eat a lot of meat. More like I eat a lot of heavy cream and butter.

Bob--none of the definitions you posted actually says that an omnivore is not a carnivore.

Quote:
An animal that only eats plants is called a herbivore and an animal that only eats meat is called a carnivore.


This comes the closest, but... a Great Dane is called a dog. Not all dogs are Great Danes. An exclusive carnivore, that only eats meat, is of course a carnivore. That doesn't mean that a carnivore only eats meat--only that some do.

Wikipedia;

Quote:
A carnivore /ˈkɑːrnɪvɔːr/, meaning "meat eater" (Latin, caro, genitive carnis, meaning "meat" or "flesh" and vorare meaning "to devour"), is an organism that derives its energy and nutrient requirements from a diet consisting mainly or exclusively of animal tissue, whether through predation or scavenging.[1][2] Animals that depend solely on animal flesh for their nutrient requirements are called obligate carnivores while those that also consume non-animal food are called facultative carnivores.[2] Omnivores also consume both animal and non-animal food, and, apart from the more general definition, there is no clearly defined ratio of plant to animal material that would distinguish a facultative carnivore from an omnivore.[3] A carnivore at the top of the food chain, not preyed upon by other animals, is termed an apex predator.


Hurm. I'd argue that it would take an awful lot of cauliflower to keep the animal foods in a low carb diet from being the main source of nutrients/energy. Amber O'Hearn has been using that faculative carnivore term for a while, maybe because like me she wants to keep her coffee.

This reminds me of the fasting thing. The word is used in all sorts of ways, sometimes we want it to have just one meaning. If we want to argue common usage, I could argue I'm just about as common as anybody.
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  #17   ^
Old Sun, Jul-21-19, 07:45
Bob-a-rama's Avatar
Bob-a-rama Bob-a-rama is offline
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Posts: 1,209
 
Plan: Keto (Atkins Induction)
Stats: 230/179/185 Male 5' 11"
BF:
Progress: 113%
Location: Florida
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I admit, sometimes I get too picky with words. When we broaden the definition of a word we dilute the word. It makes communication less specific.

Vegetarian used to mean someone who ate only plant matter.

Then milk/butter/cheese people decided they were vegetarians because it doesn't kill an animal. So cows are now vegetables?

Oh and then some people added eggs to the milk/butter/cheese and still call themselves vegetarians. So by that logic cows and chickens are now vegetables.

And for a decade or so I've heard people who eat fish along with milk/butter/cheese/eggs calling themselves vegetarians. By the same logic cows, chickens and fish are now vegetables.

So we have lacto, lacto-ovo, lacto-ovo-ichthyo-vegetarians.

And the true vegetarians who eat nothing but plant based (vegetable) foods had to invent a new name for themselves, "Vegan".

If someone comes up to me and says they are a vegetarian I have no idea if they eat eggs, dairy, fish or if they have added something else.

In music, the word "Funk" or "Funky" meant light and bouncy like the song "Alley Cat" in the big band days (according to one of my old teachers who used to play in a Big Band).

In my youth, slow triplet based blues like "Stormy Monday Blues" was called Funk. That's like calling oranges apples.

I won't bore you with the details, but Funk has gone through at least a half dozen different musical meanings since then, and they are as different as apples and bananas.

So to a musician, if I see a piece of music and the direction is Funk or Funky, I have no idea which funk they mean. I have about a 10% chance of playing it correctly.

That's one reason why I'm a self-appointed language protector.

So to me keeping nouns specific is important, but I'm probably a bit overboard in that respect.

Back on topic.

There will always be anti-???? pieces written by people who have an agenda.

The anti-keto people probably have either an emotional reason to not want to kill the furry animals, or a financial stake in selling plant based food. And they will sound as convincing as the groups with scientific sounding names that told us smoking was good for us in the 1950s (3 out of 4 doctors recommend Camels for the relief of health compromising tension).

It's just the way things are. It's also why if it isn't published in pubmed it doesn't matter to me. If it is published in pubmed it has more credibility, at least it's peer reviewed by other reputable scientists, but remember, science changes as new discoveries are made.

Bob

PS, I probably abuse the language as much as the next guy, and appreciated when I'm enlightened.

Last edited by Bob-a-rama : Sun, Jul-21-19 at 08:04.
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  #18   ^
Old Sun, Jul-21-19, 09:54
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
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Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/136/150 Female 67
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I eat non-animal foods at condiment levels as a rule.
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  #19   ^
Old Sun, Jul-21-19, 10:06
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is online now
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Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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I think we have more concepts than we have words. What matters is whether the way a person is using a word is understood by the listener. I'm okay with crowd-sourced language.
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  #20   ^
Old Sun, Jul-21-19, 10:34
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is online now
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Plan: atkins
Stats: 247/217/153 Female 5'8"
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ROFL-- thank you, BOb, for you candid insight. Still ROFL

I love these types of conversions, we get to the real meat of the matter.
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  #21   ^
Old Sun, Jul-21-19, 10:45
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is online now
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Posts: 13,572
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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I have to admit on the meaning of words thing that it drives me a bit batty when people are explaining why a keto diet doesn't have to actually have a person in ketosis to be a ketogenic diet.
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  #22   ^
Old Sun, Jul-21-19, 12:57
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is online now
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Plan: atkins
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Really??? (Shakes head) Just proves how gulable the masses are when education about nutrition is lacking, starting with the MDs.
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  #23   ^
Old Mon, Jul-22-19, 07:55
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
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Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/136/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 120%
Location: USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
I have to admit on the meaning of words thing that it drives me a bit batty when people are explaining why a keto diet doesn't have to actually have a person in ketosis to be a ketogenic diet.


WUT?

Keto in moderation?
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  #24   ^
Old Mon, Jul-22-19, 08:15
Bob-a-rama's Avatar
Bob-a-rama Bob-a-rama is offline
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Posts: 1,209
 
Plan: Keto (Atkins Induction)
Stats: 230/179/185 Male 5' 11"
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Progress: 113%
Location: Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
I have to admit on the meaning of words thing that it drives me a bit batty when people are explaining why a keto diet doesn't have to actually have a person in ketosis to be a ketogenic diet.

I haven't heard that one, but don't doubt it in the least.

Bob
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  #25   ^
Old Mon, Jul-22-19, 10:26
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is online now
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Posts: 13,572
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
Default

I think it sort of got there in steps. Starting with the idea that urine ketones don't show that you're in ketosis, I've seen it go beyond this to people discounting even blood ketones, using the same argument that the ketones don't show up because they're being used more efficiently. I guess that's not so much claiming that ketones don't have to be present as that they're invisible, beneficial metabolic pixies.

I think an argument can be made that a lot of people can do fine on a low carb diet, whether it's ketogenic or not.

Also what you call ketosis is a matter of degree. The bottom level could be at .5 mm, I often see that given--but at that point, the actual contribution of ketones to brain and metabolism in general is really quite low. I've even seen the claim that actual level of ketosis doesn't matter on a facebook page devoted to the ketogenic diet for neurological issues.
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  #26   ^
Old Tue, Jul-23-19, 06:58
Bob-a-rama's Avatar
Bob-a-rama Bob-a-rama is offline
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Posts: 1,209
 
Plan: Keto (Atkins Induction)
Stats: 230/179/185 Male 5' 11"
BF:
Progress: 113%
Location: Florida
Default

I never measured my ketones. Extreme low carb works and I'm extremely healthy - 73 years old, zero prescriptions, and a circulatory system of someone in their early 50s.

I suppose I've been in ketosis for a while, but I really have no proof. Being in ketosis wasn't the goal, losing weight and staying healthy was.

Back on topic:

I don't care how many anti-keto opinion pieces are published, as long as it's working this well, I'm OK with it.

Bob
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  #27   ^
Old Tue, Jul-23-19, 07:31
cotonpal's Avatar
cotonpal cotonpal is offline
Posts: 4,526
 
Plan: very low carb real food
Stats: 245/128/135 Female 62
BF:
Progress: 106%
Location: Vermont
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob-a-rama

I don't care how many anti-keto opinion pieces are published, as long as it's working this well, I'm OK with it.

Bob


Absolutely. That's my attitude also. I know what works for me so no matter what anyone else says I will stick with what I am doing. I am 70 years old and I take no prescription medications. I have kept over 100 pounds off for many years. That's good enough for me.
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  #28   ^
Old Tue, Jul-23-19, 08:55
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is online now
Posts: 3,000
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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Agree with you both, my N=1s with keto foods are proof enough that I achieve better health when following a VLCKD protocol. Not hard to do when you've been perfecting it over the years. The results for me are compelling.
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  #29   ^
Old Tue, Jul-23-19, 09:20
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Posts: 11,704
 
Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/136/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 120%
Location: USA
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I know Dr. Atkins saved my life. Had I not had a record of longtime, lowcarb, eating for years prior to my health crash, it would have been much worse, maybe not fixable, and even more horrible to endure.
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  #30   ^
Old Tue, Jul-23-19, 17:49
Bob-a-rama's Avatar
Bob-a-rama Bob-a-rama is offline
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Posts: 1,209
 
Plan: Keto (Atkins Induction)
Stats: 230/179/185 Male 5' 11"
BF:
Progress: 113%
Location: Florida
Default

My parents and siblings are were/are 300 lbs.

I'm not - 178 this morning.

OK, so I can't eat macaroni anymore, I'd rather live than die too soon like my parents.

Bob
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