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  #16   ^
Old Mon, Feb-18-19, 05:29
s93uv3h s93uv3h is online now
Posts: 1,057
 
Plan: Atkins & IF / TRE
Stats: 000/014.5/015 Male 5' 10"
BF:
Progress: 97%
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Before I started Atkins induction ( 20g max carbs a day ), I didn't count calories. Still don't. I did not see a drop in weight during the first week to 10 days or so, and it was around this time that I discovered intermittent fasting (and time-restricted eating (TRE)), and combined it has gotten me this far. I'm on day 326 ( on my daily food log ) and log everything I eat, drink religiously.

Sweets. I've found that sugar substitutes trigger sugar cravings, so I cut all of those out. Every now and then I will have a couple squares of Lindt 85 percent dark chocolate.
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  #17   ^
Old Mon, Feb-18-19, 07:31
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 2,826
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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fhutt1 - Understood that you're not new to this. Note that we are all different in dietary reactions and requirements. We can investigate the metabolic details, which today are still being confirmed about the health of low carb and ketosis, but bottom line is that I will not react to an eating lifestyle in the same way you do. For instance, I'm in my late 60s, and I've recently increased my protein with good results and still remain in fat burning mode. I'm familiar with Rosedale, and after studying the research by Ben Bikman and clinical results of Ted Naiman, I find I do better with more (not lots) of protein. One of the recommendations for protein is to increase it as we age. It worked for me. When I first started low carb, I made the conscious decision to stay in what Atkins terms "Induction." I responded best to very low carbs. I'm still there in a sense, but have learned much more and have made the necessary course corrections over the years. Good luck on your journey, it truly is one of self discovery as much as learning from others' experiences.
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  #18   ^
Old Mon, Feb-18-19, 14:46
fhutt1 fhutt1 is offline
New Member
Posts: 15
 
Plan: Fung, Rosedale
Stats: 236/195/157 Male 180cm
BF:
Progress: 52%
Location: Australia
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Rob, I am 70 now and had the same concerns about protein intake. However, Rosedale has been asked about this and he responded here:
https://drrosedale.tenderapp.com/kb...ose-over-age-65
During fat burning with very low carb intake the situation is different. An increased protein intake (even if not high) reduces autophagy and as we age this should not be done as we need to do lots of repair.

I do however agree with you that everyone is different and you have to do what you feel is best for you. The only difference between the Atkins induction phase and Rosedale's diet is the protein intake. So, if you are on Atkins induction and watching your protein, you are more conducting a Rosedale diet than an Atkins diet. But these are just names. I think that unfortunately Atkins died too early (about 2002) and probaly wasn't familiar with Rosedale's work. I have not been able to find anyone contradicting Rosedale's ideas with logical reasoning.
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  #19   ^
Old Mon, Feb-18-19, 14:48
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 13,448
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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The problem with logic is that it doesn't prove anything, that takes experimentation.

Okay, you can prove that reasoning is sound, but we don't know what we don't know.
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  #20   ^
Old Mon, Feb-18-19, 15:10
fhutt1 fhutt1 is offline
New Member
Posts: 15
 
Plan: Fung, Rosedale
Stats: 236/195/157 Male 180cm
BF:
Progress: 52%
Location: Australia
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Teaser, what I meant by logical reasoning is that I like to see more than just someone's statement. Admittedly, if the logical reasoning is supported by proven evidence, even better. But that may not be available, and logical reasoning may be the only best thing available.

You stated that some of the ingested fat is stored as body fat and body fat is used for energy at the same time, more or less. To me this makes sense because when we ingest fat, we may not be able to use all of it straight away. Like all glucose ingested may not be used straight away and the extra is stored as glycogen. Since I have not seen any other or better or more logical explanation of fat usage, I accepted your explanation.
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  #21   ^
Old Mon, Feb-18-19, 15:23
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 2,826
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fhutt1
Rob, I am 70 now and had the same concerns about protein intake. However, Rosedale has been asked about this and he responded here:
https://drrosedale.tenderapp.com/kb...ose-over-age-65
During fat burning with very low carb intake the situation is different. An increased protein intake (even if not high) reduces autophagy and as we age this should not be done as we need to do lots of repair.

I do however agree with you that everyone is different and you have to do what you feel is best for you. The only difference between the Atkins induction phase and Rosedale's diet is the protein intake. So, if you are on Atkins induction and watching your protein, you are more conducting a Rosedale diet than an Atkins diet. But these are just names. I think that unfortunately Atkins died too early (about 2002) and probaly wasn't familiar with Rosedale's work. I have not been able to find anyone contradicting Rosedale's ideas with logical reasoning.

Yes, we all respond differently to foods consumed, and Rosedale doesn't have a monopoly on recommended protein quantities, here are a few links to the research/information referenced earlier by Bikman and Naiman. The last two are previews, as the full videos can be accessed with a DietDoctor membership (which can be had as a trial for a month at no charge):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3fO5aTD6JU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PesM7TTzqlk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbzF4wRCp5Q

This may or may not help you. As mentioned, I've bumped up my protein consumption, not significantly, and still measure good ketone production. If the increased protein consumption resulted in significant gluconeogenesis, one would expect ketone production to decrease. Note the caveats by Bikman when a low carber consumes more protein. Hope you find the information you're seeking. All the best.
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  #22   ^
Old Mon, Feb-18-19, 15:26
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 13,448
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fhutt1
Teaser, what I meant by logical reasoning is that I like to see more than just someone's statement. Admittedly, if the logical reasoning is supported by proven evidence, even better. But that may not be available, and logical reasoning may be the only best thing available.

You stated that some of the ingested fat is stored as body fat and body fat is used for energy at the same time, more or less. To me this makes sense because when we ingest fat, we may not be able to use all of it straight away. Like all glucose ingested may not be used straight away and the extra is stored as glycogen. Since I have not seen any other or better or more logical explanation of fat usage, I accepted your explanation.



You don't need my say-so. These things are trackable, they can label dietary fat and see where it winds up in the tissue.
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  #23   ^
Old Mon, Feb-18-19, 15:32
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 13,448
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
Default

I am a Rosedale fan, and my protein intake is towards his recommendations, with usually some up days on the weekend for protein, not because I think it's necessary--I haven't withered away when I didn't have them--but because I find compliance a lot easier during the work week where my day is more structured.

But... the longevity studies are mostly in rodents, always in chow fed animals, the protein and especially the methionine restriction studies demand a further purified diet, these approaches work mostly in comparison to feeds that induce insulin resistance/weight gain/overfeeding in the animals, usually sugar is involved. So apparent effects on my current health just seem more important to me than the longevity thing, they have the benefit of being more apparently real.
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  #24   ^
Old Mon, Feb-18-19, 15:42
Meme#1's Avatar
Meme#1 Meme#1 is offline
Posts: 10,345
 
Plan: Atkins DANDR
Stats: 210/188/160 Female 5'4"
BF:
Progress: 44%
Location: Texas
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My thoughts are, what are you eating in those grams of carbs?
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  #25   ^
Old Mon, Feb-18-19, 15:53
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 2,826
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
So apparent effects on my current health just seem more important to me than the longevity thing, they have the benefit of being more apparently real.

That's a good description of where I am at this time. While longevity studies are interesting, I'm more focused on my health in the near term with the hope that near-term good health could also contribute to improved longevity.
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  #26   ^
Old Mon, Feb-18-19, 16:36
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Posts: 11,399
 
Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/140/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 114%
Location: USA
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Lately I am all about the MITOCHONDRIA!!!

Not finding any papers, but running into guidelines like the lower one’s carbs, the higher the protein can be, one to one ratio. This is a variable I had not run into before.
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  #27   ^
Old Mon, Feb-18-19, 21:15
fhutt1 fhutt1 is offline
New Member
Posts: 15
 
Plan: Fung, Rosedale
Stats: 236/195/157 Male 180cm
BF:
Progress: 52%
Location: Australia
Default

Rob's first link shows Bikman recommending a higher intake of protein.

I also note that he also recommends around 50 grams of carbs for a ketogenic diet. I've seen this recommendation elsewhere also.I think there is a great difference between 20g and 50g in being able to keep to the diet or not.

Last edited by fhutt1 : Mon, Feb-18-19 at 21:36.
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  #28   ^
Old Mon, Feb-18-19, 22:43
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 13,448
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
Default

I personally find maintenance way easier at both the lower carb intake and towards Rosedale's protein recommendations. Eating protein without limit had me usually a good fifteen to twenty pounds heavier, and it wasn't muscle. It was still a lot better than my pre-low carb days, though.

I also have some chronic pain from an old shoulder injury, that stayed with me on a looser protein approach. On a higher fat ratio, it's pretty much gone, if my shoulder gets sore, it's from working out.
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  #29   ^
Old Tue, Feb-19-19, 06:37
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Posts: 11,399
 
Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/140/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 114%
Location: USA
Default

What made me get into VLC, and stick with it this time, was the knowledge that, at first, that hungry feeling was totally normal and a sign of my body going "Feed me!" because the nutrition was there.

In the past, I was thinking, "I keep getting hungrier, this can't be right." But it was.

Things should calm down as the body heals, I think.
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  #30   ^
Old Tue, Feb-19-19, 12:10
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 2,826
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fhutt1
Rob's first link shows Bikman recommending a higher intake of protein.

I also note that he also recommends around 50 grams of carbs for a ketogenic diet. I've seen this recommendation elsewhere also.I think there is a great difference between 20g and 50g in being able to keep to the diet or not.

It varies by the individual, and for those who are fat adapted and not suffering from hyperinsulinemia, it works with a higher amount of carbs. While I eat low carb, it took some time consistently eating that way before I was able to be comfortable in fat burning mode. Note that whenever I go higher with carbs (not often), I'm getting them from veggies and nuts usually. I continue to produce ketones unless I really ramp up the carbs.

Now, if I consumed a bear claw or coffee cake with my morning coffee, all bets are off. Like alcohol to an alcoholic. I learned at an early stage that I cannot do that.
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