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  #1   ^
Old Wed, Nov-07-18, 11:43
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Plan: mostly milkfat
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Default Um. Yeah. It's good as long as you didn't get it from red meat

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releas...81106073239.htm


Quote:
Eat your vegetables (and fish): Another reason why they may promote heart health
Fish and gut bacteria-produced compound both protect hypertensive rats from heart disease

Elevated levels of trimethylamine N-oxide (TMAO) -- a compound linked with the consumption of fish, seafood and a primarily vegetarian diet -- may reduce hypertension-related heart disease symptoms. New research in rats finds that low-dose treatment with TMAO reduced heart thickening (cardiac fibrosis) and markers of heart failure in an animal model of hypertension. The study is published ahead of print in the American Journal of Physiology -- Heart and Circulatory Physiology and was chosen as an APSselect article for November.

TMAO levels in the blood significantly increase after eating TMAO-rich food such as fish and vegetables. In addition, the liver produces TMAO from trimethylamine (TMA), a substance made by gut bacteria. The cause of high TMAO levels in the blood and the compound's effects on the heart and circulatory system are unclear, and earlier research has been contradictory. It was previously thought that TMAO blood plasma levels -- and heart disease risk -- rise after the consumption of red meat and eggs. However, "it seems that a fish-rich and vegetarian diet, which is beneficial or at least neutral for cardiovascular risk, is associated with a significantly higher plasma TMAO than red meat- and egg-rich diets, which are considered to increase the cardiovascular risk," researchers from the Medical University of Warsaw in Poland and the Polish Academy of Sciences wrote.

The researchers studied the effect of TMAO on rats that have a genetic tendency to develop high blood pressure (spontaneously hypertensive rats). One group of hypertensive rats was given low-dose TMAO supplements in their drinking water, and another group received plain water. They were compared to a control group of rats that does not have the same genetic predisposition and received plain water. The dosage of TMAO was designed to increase blood TMAO levels approximately four times higher than what the body normally produces. The rats were given TMAO therapy for either 12 weeks or 56 weeks and were assessed for heart and kidney damage and high blood pressure.

TMAO treatment did not affect the development of high blood pressure in any of the spontaneously hypertensive rats. However, condition of the animals given the compound was better than expected, even after more than a year of low-dose TMAO treatment. "A new finding of our study is that [a] four- to five-fold increase in plasma TMAO does not exert negative effects on the circulatory system. In contrast, a low-dose TMAO treatment is associated with reduced cardiac fibrosis and [markers of] failing heart in spontaneously hypertensive rats," the researchers wrote.

"Our study provides new evidence for a potential beneficial effect of a moderate increase in plasma TMAO on pressure-overloaded heart," the research team wrote. The researchers acknowledge that further study is needed to assess the effect of TMAO and TMA on the circulatory system. However, an indirect conclusion from the study could underscore the heart-healthy benefits of following a Mediterranean-style diet rich in fish and vegetables.



When they thought TMAO contributed to heart disease, they warned against eating red meat, I s&%^ you not.

Quote:
The link between red meat consumption and heart disease, a study suggests, may stem from gut microbes breaking down carnitine, a compound found in red meat. ... TMAO has been associated with atherosclerosis, a disease in which plaque builds up inside the arteries.


https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih...es-gut-microbes

But now they got the opposite response from the one expected in this rat study--so instead of avoiding red meat and eggs in fear of excessively high TMAO levels driving heart disease, we should avoid red meat and eggs in favour of foods that will drive TMAO higher. Because, like, low levels of TMAO due to a diet high in red meat and eggs must be driving heart disease. I don't know if I should LMAO or break all my furniture to try and let off some steam.

They feel like they already know what everybody should be eating--so no harm in making recommendations before all the data is in, right? Problem is, all the data is what's needed to verify or disprove what they already think they know from associations that can't actually prove causation.
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  #2   ^
Old Wed, Nov-07-18, 12:07
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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Quote:
New research in rats finds that low-dose treatment with TMAO reduced heart thickening (cardiac fibrosis) and markers of heart failure in an animal model of hypertension


Quote:
"Our study provides new evidence for a potential beneficial effect of a moderate increase in plasma TMAO on pressure-overloaded heart," the research team wrote. The researchers acknowledge that further study is needed to assess the effect of TMAO and TMA on the circulatory system. However, an indirect conclusion from the study could underscore the heart-healthy benefits of following a Mediterranean-style diet rich in fish and vegetables


Drawing conclusions not in evidence.
Study showed decrease in rat already compromised with heart issues. There is nothing about prevention in this study.

If I too could draw conclusions,
I would bet the solvent- extract seed oils are a problem; and the effects of high heat like frying on those oils.

As for the beef-- And if it linked to beef, then I would want to see grass fed versus grain fed in the study. There was no beef in the above study. ( or did I miss that?)
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  #3   ^
Old Wed, Nov-07-18, 12:34
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Plan: mostly milkfat
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I don't think there's any reason that the imaginary connection given here between beef and heart disease is stronger with grain-fed than with grass-fed. But maybe if we just believe hard enough, Tinkerbell will come back to life.
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  #4   ^
Old Wed, Nov-07-18, 12:46
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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The ratio in omega 3: omega 6 is radically different between grass fed and grain fed. Otherwise I wont think red meat like beef has much to do with heart disease UNTIL there is a good study that proves otherwise. From the sources I have read so far, there is no connection ( beef and heart disease) , going back to before the cattle were grain finished.
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  #5   ^
Old Wed, Nov-07-18, 13:02
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Plan: mostly milkfat
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Ratio is radically different. Actual amount of omega 6 is tiny. I wouldn't condemn any other fat for having very low levels of omega 6, and also not much omega 3, so I don't see a reason to condemn fat from grain fed beef. I'd just go somewhere else for my omega 3's.
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  #6   ^
Old Wed, Nov-07-18, 13:32
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GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
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I'd usually laugh at the claims of this "study," but it's hard to muster anything regarding "science" with such a blatant bias.
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  #7   ^
Old Wed, Dec-12-18, 09:49
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Plan: mostly milkfat
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https://www.sciencedaily.com/releas...81211084948.htm

Quote:
Researchers have identified another reason to limit red meat consumption: high levels of a gut-generated chemical called trimethylamine N-oxide (TMAO), that also is linked to heart disease. Scientists found that people who eat a diet rich in red meat have triple the TMAO levels of those who eat a diet rich in either white meat or mostly plant-based proteins, but discontinuation of red meat eventually lowers those TMAO levels.

TMAO is a dietary byproduct that is formed by gut bacteria during digestion and is derived in part from nutrients that are abundant in red meat. While high saturated fat levels in red meat have long been known to contribute to heart disease -- the leading cause of death in the United States -- a growing number of studies have identified TMAO as another culprit. Until now, researchers knew little about how typical dietary patterns influence TMAO production or elimination.

The findings suggest that measuring and targeting TMAO levels -- something doctors can do with a simple blood test -- may be a promising new strategy for individualizing diets and helping to prevent heart disease. The study was funded largely by the National Heart, Lung, and Blood Institute (NHLBI), part of the National Institutes of Health. It will be published Dec. 10 in the European Heart Journal, a publication of the European Society of Cardiology.

"These findings reinforce current dietary recommendations that encourage all ages to follow a heart-healthy eating plan that limits red meat," said Charlotte Pratt, Ph.D., the NHLBI project officer for the study and a nutrition researcher and Deputy Chief of the Clinical Applications & Prevention Branch, Division of Cardiovascular Sciences, NHLBI. "This means eating a variety of foods, including more vegetables, fruits, whole grains, low-fat dairy foods, and plant-based protein sources such as beans and peas."

"This study shows for the first time what a dramatic effect changing your diet has on levels of TMAO, which is increasingly linked to heart disease," said Stanley L. Hazen, M.D., Ph.D., senior author of the study and section head of Preventive Cardiology & Rehabilitation at the Cleveland Clinic. "It suggests that you can lower your heart disease risk by lowering TMAO."

Hazen estimated that as many as a quarter of middle-aged Americans have naturally elevated TMAO levels, which are made worse by chronic red meat consumption. However, every person's TMAO profile appears to be different, so tracking this chemical marker, Hazen suggested, could be an important step in using personalized medicine to fight heart disease.

For the study, researchers enrolled 113 healthy men and women in a clinical trial to examine the effects of dietary protein -- in the form of red meat, white meat, or non-meat sources -- on TMAO production. All subjects were placed on each diet for a month in random order. When on the red meat diet, the participants consumed roughly the equivalent of about 8 ounces of steak daily, or two quarter-pound beef patties. After one month, researchers found that, on average, blood levels of TMAO in these participants tripled, compared to when they were on the diets high in either white meat or non-meat protein sources.

While all diets contained equal amounts of calories, half of the participants were also placed on high-fat versions of the three diets, and the researchers observed similar results. Thus, the effects of the protein source on TMAO levels were independent of dietary fat intake.

Importantly, the researchers discovered that the TMAO increases were reversible. When the subjects discontinued their red meat diet and moved to either a white meat or non-meat diet for another month, their TMAO levels decreased significantly.

The exact mechanisms by which TMAO affects heart disease is complex. Prior research has shown TMAO enhances cholesterol deposits into cells of the artery wall. Studies by the researchers also suggest that the chemical interacts with platelets -- blood cells that are responsible for normal clotting responses -- in a way that increases the risk for clot-related events such as heart attack and stroke.

TMAO measurement is currently available as a quick, simple blood test first developed by Hazen's laboratory. In recent published studies, he and his colleagues reported development of a new class of drugs that are capable of lowering TMAO levels in the blood and reducing atherosclerosis and clotting risks in animal models, but those drugs are still experimental and not yet available to the public.



I wonder how the scientists who think we should avoid red meat and eat fish in order to increase TMAO levels, and those who think we should avoid red meat in order to decrease TMAO levels, feel about each other?

For the nonce, probably the best approach is to nod off anytime anybody mentions TMAO.
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  #8   ^
Old Wed, Dec-12-18, 12:38
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doreen T doreen T is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
[url]I wonder how the scientists who think we should avoid red meat and eat fish in order to increase TMAO levels, and those who think we should avoid red meat in order to decrease TMAO levels, feel about each other?

For the nonce, probably the best approach is to nod off anytime anybody mentions TMAO.

TMAO = Too Many Asinine Opinions
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  #9   ^
Old Wed, Dec-12-18, 14:46
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
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Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releas...81211084948.htm




I wonder how the scientists who think we should avoid red meat and eat fish in order to increase TMAO levels, and those who think we should avoid red meat in order to decrease TMAO levels, feel about each other?

For the nonce, probably the best approach is to nod off anytime anybody mentions TMAO.

And these studies are funded based on what rationale??? The bias against red meat is one thing these groups have in common, and the purported smoking gun, TMAO, is increased where in one case, that's a good thing, and in the other, it's a bad thing. Ok, I get it . . . Nothing to see here . . . please keep moving . . .
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  #10   ^
Old Wed, Dec-12-18, 17:47
M Levac M Levac is offline
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Hazen, I remember that idjit. He's an idjit. He did something similar a while ago, we discussed it, too lazy to look for it, whatever. It went something like this. Make a few people eat a single meal containing some meat. Check their crap for TMAO. Put TMAO (not the same, this one lab grown) in a petri dish with living cells. Check stuff. Do math and statistics. Conclude: Meat bad cuz TMAO. Write paper, publish, get pat in the back, boost ego, etc. Not enough. Next, call Gina and tell her to write something quick (she didn't, she already had something prepared for this, cuz of what came next). Next, within literally a couple hours of publication of the paper, an article by Gina is published, and wiki gets a page about TMAO, Hazen, his paper, and Gina's hours old (actually more likely months old, cuz dude, this crap is prepared, not thought up in the mere hours it took to do it all everywhere all at once) article.

Hazen, Gina, yeah, idjits.

So, Ima say meat good cuz all-meat trial and personal experience, and TMAO ignore cuz idjits Hazen Gina.
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  #11   ^
Old Fri, Dec-14-18, 01:52
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Demi Demi is offline
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Fresh health warnings issued over controversial paleo diet after heart disease link discovered

The controversial paleo diet, made famous by TV chef Pete Evans, has been dealt another blow by health researchers.


https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/h...b7d45b902c63d52


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  #12   ^
Old Fri, Dec-14-18, 11:41
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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Plan: atkins
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TMAOs -- hmmm, we have seen contradictory research results.

No, bone broth is not suitable as the only food for babies, assuming that is what was meant by replacing formula. Breast milk is the best option, and this should be supported more than it is by practitioners.

I do wonder what ages he was talking about in the book? I dropped milk from the grocery list a long time ago, but include cheeses and yogurt. HOWEVER, these do NOT contain added vit. D. Pediatrition said to give a vit D pill.
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  #13   ^
Old Fri, Dec-14-18, 11:51
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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https://cholesterolcode.com/

Dave Feldman interviews Ivor Cummins here. Around 1:44 Ivor talks about a study with kidney disease patients and their levels of TMAO--kidney patients with high TMAO experience dramatic decreases after transplant. Kidney disease is a strong driver of atherosclerosis, so a possible confounder when TMAO correlates with heart disease...

Anyways, a good interview to watch, even if it does mention TMAO.

The bone broth--if it was indeed proposed as a sole food, I agree there, I remember saying that here back when that all went down. I think the formula included some liver as well and there was the question of whether vitamin A intake would be excessive.
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  #14   ^
Old Fri, Dec-14-18, 11:53
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Meme#1 Meme#1 is offline
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I read this last night and never had time to go into this but what is:

"High levels of trimethylamine-n-oxide, or TMAO, in the gut" ?

There was not much detail in this article about this, just statements with no facts or referances.
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  #15   ^
Old Fri, Dec-14-18, 11:57
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Plan: mostly milkfat
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It's a substance that gut bacteria can produce from some nutrients like choline and l-carnitine. It's beneficial if it comes from fish or bean sprouts, deadly if it comes from red meat or eggs. There. You're up to speed.
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