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  #46   ^
Old Thu, Jun-30-16, 11:33
Seejay's Avatar
Seejay Seejay is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilikemice
What I'm trying to do here is point out a rabbit hole that has developed among the body acceptance movement (which is wonderful), just as you'd point out a dangerous riptide in a beautiful beach.
Quite so! and right back at ya. It has been fun and illuminating.
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  #47   ^
Old Thu, Jun-30-16, 12:24
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bkloots bkloots is offline
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Quote:
Haven't had a good internet argument in a while,
Have we been arguing here? I don't think so. Lots of interesting points of view and links to still more points of view. I appreciate that. And speaking of links, that Instagram picture (is that Dr. Oz standing to the side??) and the accompanying comment make me sad, as does the This American Life podcast where this thread began.

I do not think a person who weighs upwards of 500lbs. does enjoy the activity, mobility, and opportunity that more regular-size people take for granted. Sorry. Not possible. But make yourself as happy as you can, if this is you. Also, I do not believe that the "catcalls" extended to a 717lb woman in a mobility chair are meant to be compliments or come-ons. Indeed, as far as I'm concerned, catcalls aimed at any woman are demeaning. But that's a whole other thread, no?
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  #48   ^
Old Thu, Jun-30-16, 12:27
Novelist2B
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MickiSue
Mice, there will never be a perfect world. There will always be people who strongly believe that the most unhealthy of behaviors are normal and good, because they want to continue doing them, without feeling guilty about them.

I don't want people who are morbidly obese to feel guilty. I want them to feel empowered to take back the responsibility for eating from the corporations that thrust addictive substances in their faces, all day long, and pay to have their caregivers and their governments tell them that those substances are the healthiest things they can eat.

You cannot blame an addict for being an addict, nor for doing her damnedest to justify it. That's what addicts do.

What you can do is whatever small amount any one of us can to help parents make better choices for their kids, and the addict to learn new ways of eating that lets them cut out the foods they can't eat in moderation.



No blame. No guilt. But that doesn't mean celebration. Do we celebrate drug addicts? No, we try to help them, to educate them, to break their addiction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cotonpal

I said this before on this thread and it still holds as my opinion. There is a big difference between supporting the issue of social justice for fat people and supporting what are often either unsubstantiated or incorrect views on the science of obesity. The issues of why people are fat and remain fat are separate from the issues of how fat people should be treated as equal members of the human race.

Jean


Is that what is about? We need...social justice? Absolutely. Education? Yes! And compassion, too. Equality...yes, to a point. I don't expect airplanes to make their seats bigger, or restaurants to expand their booths, or car manufacturers to accommodate the ever-expanding girth of the obese. So, if you're going to "celebrate" fatness, know that no matter how self-assured you are or how much you can justify your weight, no matter how much acceptance you get from society, if you get too big, physics will intervene.

I don't view this thing as a movement for the education of fat people. (Education should be required for everyone, since our collective health is at risk if we eat badly, even if we're thin). I didn't see this as a call for equal rights, either. I think the notion of social equality for fatties, while good in theory, is as unrealistic as many of the movements present in today's society. Prejudice and bigotry come in so many forms: race, religion, socioeconomic status, sexual preference, hair color, number of children one has, the kind of car one drives...the list is endless. Obviously some prejudices are more prevalent, more unfair and in some cases more injurious than others. I think it's noble to fight for equal rights for all and in many cases necessary. You should have the right to any job you want (if you're qualified), any mate you choose, etc., no matter the color of your skin or your sexual preference, but when the bias against you involves something you probably have the ability to change, it rings hollow to me.

The biggest thing that needs to happen, and I doubt it will, is that the powers that be need to stop promoting the diet that's killing us. Until that happens, we are all at risk. MickiSue, you are so right...it's not a perfect world. Not even close.
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  #49   ^
Old Thu, Jun-30-16, 13:22
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khrussva khrussva is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Novelist2B
... but when the bias against you involves something you probably have the ability to change

That is the fly in the ointment to me and the justification/ammunition used by fat shamers everywhere. The success rate for those who take the weight off and keep it off is dismal. What if you took a class at school where 95% of the students failed? Year after year, class after class after class nearly every student failed. Would you blame the students? Or is something else going on? Bad teacher? Bad curriculum? Bad classroom environment? Any or all of the above? In that situation I don't think society would find the students at fault. Not if virtually everybody was failing the class. Something else is wrong. Something else needs to be addressed.

Not so with obesity. If you are super sized, then it is your fault. Stop shoving food in your face. Problem solved. Yes - except that only a select few seem to be able to do that. Being fat is not the problem. It is a symptom of the problem. I don't think obesity should be celebrated or embraced. Fat people just don't know what to do to not be fat. Even for those who have not given up, the prevailing solutions offered don't work. The curriculum is the heart of problem. Our food supply certainly doesn't help, either. A solution to obesity won't happen until people are taught a solution that actually works.

I never liked being obese for a second. I dieted and failed at dieting for years. Decades. Most of my dieting was trying to do low carb. It still didn't work. No fat shamer ever had to work so hard at trying to control what they eat. I didn't fail because I didn't try. I failed because I did not know the secret to making this WOE work. Society does not teach it. In fact, society preaches against what I do. So what chance did I have? Slim to none.

Last edited by khrussva : Thu, Jun-30-16 at 14:05.
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  #50   ^
Old Thu, Jun-30-16, 14:29
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WereBear WereBear is offline
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I think it was an excellent move about civil rights and human dignity.

However, I understand the movement is now rife with extremists who will be scornful of the facts and abusive to those who disagree.

Which is not unusual in groups of any kind, sadly.

And my point about Regan Chastain is that she markets herself as an FA role model, someone who is both fit and fat. And yet... She is faking it, and I think it much more than her being a con artist. Perhaps what she is trying for is not possible.
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  #51   ^
Old Thu, Jun-30-16, 15:02
Novelist2B
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khrussva
That is the fly in the ointment to me and the justification/ammunition used by fat shamers everywhere. The success rate for those who take the weight off and keep it off is dismal. What if you took a class at school where 95% of the students failed? Year after year, class after class after class nearly every student failed. Would you blame the students? Or is something else going on? Bad teacher? Bad curriculum? Bad classroom environment? Any or all of the above? In that situation I don't think society would find the students at fault. Not if virtually everybody was failing the class. Something else is wrong. Something else needs to be addressed.

Not so with obesity. If you are super sized, then it is your fault. Stop shoving food in your face. Problem solved. Yes - except that only a select few seem to be able to do that. Being fat is not the problem. It is a symptom of the problem. I don't think obesity should be celebrated or embraced. Fat people just don't know what to do to not be fat. Even for those who have not given up, the prevailing solutions offered don't work. The curriculum is the heart of problem. Our food supply certainly doesn't help, either. A solution to obesity won't happen until people are taught a solution that actually works.

I never liked being obese for a second. I dieted and failed at dieting for years. Decades. Most of my dieting was trying to do low carb. It still didn't work. No fat shamer ever had to work so hard at trying to control what they eat. I didn't fail because I didn't try. I failed because I did not know the secret to making this WOE work. Society does not teach it. In fact, society preaches against what I do. So what chance did I have? Slim to none.


I agree with you. I'm not saying we assess blame on fat people for their fatness. I don't believe in fat shaming. But not in embracing it either and that's the rub for me. Everything you said was true. But that doesn't mean we should celebrate people for being fat. Are there only two choices, fat shaming or fat celebrating? How about something in between? Hate the fat, love the fatty? How about simple tolerance? Isn't tolerance what the world is striving for? I know as well as anyone on this forum how hard it is to lose weight. To gain it back. To be judged by my appearance. I want simple acceptance. But I take no pride in being overweight. Gay pride, black pride, and fat pride? No. No fat pride. Just as you say students should not be punished for flunking due to bad teachers, we should not be celebrating their failure, either.

Fat lives matter. Nobody's debating that. There should be no distinction between the value of a thin person and fat person. but no celebration in being fat. Celebrate your compassion, your intelligence, your wit. Perhaps if this movement was focused on respect for people of all weights and sizes rather than trying to turn obesity into this wonderful, positive thing we should embrace, I'd be more of a fan.

It's too bad we can't get Michelle Obama to educate herself on the LC WOE. She's shoving the old BS, literally, down the throats of schoolchildren across this country. Education, or more accurately, miseducation, is flowing down from the top. I think the "movement" would be better served by expending energy in the area of education rather than trying to convince others how obese people need to be accepted and praised.
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  #52   ^
Old Thu, Jun-30-16, 15:05
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Liz53 Liz53 is offline
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Very eloquent post, Ken.
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  #53   ^
Old Thu, Jun-30-16, 16:26
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leemack leemack is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Novelist2B

Fat lives matter. Nobody's debating that. There should be no distinction between the value of a thin person and fat person.


But surely in saying that there should not be facilities suitable for fat people (the term 'fatties' makes me uncomfortable as it is generally derogatory) like airplane seats or restaurant booths etc, aren't you saying that fat people DO have less value, that they don't deserve to use airplanes or go to certain restaurants, or other things. I have no problem with an airline charging more for a larger seat size, or a car company making a car for a particular market - but if YOU do and you limit companies from pursuing that market then you're imposing a punishment on the obese for their perceived sin.

How do you feel about adaptations made for disabled people? Special seating, parking spaces, toilets etc - do you object to those adaptations too or do you believe they are OK?

I think the issue at hand is as Ken very eloquently says is about whether you believe someone is to blame for their condition or not and if they are doing anything to help it.

Let me give you two examples:

A fat woman 450lbs, suffered serious abuse throughout childhood, suffers repeated bouts of depression, has PCOS, an eating disorder, but has tried and tried and tried to lose weight, but the depression, metabolic disorder and eating disorder all make things really, really difficult.

A 'normal' size woman is disabled and in a wheelchair following a car accident where she was drunk driving. she could walk if she put in the effort with the physiotherapy but she suffers depression and lacks the motivation to do the work.

My point with these examples is that you can look at a person and not know their history, their circumstances or their barriers to health. Sadly there is an automatic assumption when looking at a fat person that they are solely responsible for their own circumstances, and that a 'normal' size person in a wheelchair is there through no fault of their own. And I feel that you are falling into this trap with fat people - there is a strong sense of blame to the things you write.

There are so many different elements to obesity, maybe we should treat the morbidly obese with compassion as we would someone with any other health condition. Childhood sexual abuse and childhood trauma are a big predictor of morbid obesity as an adult. People with mental health problems often struggle with their weight in both directions. Medications can trigger large weight gains. Women with PCOS who are obese often struggle to lose weight and can gain weight suddenly and easily. Menopause can cause huge issues with weight gain and difficulties with loss. And this is before we get into all of the incorrect information regarding nutrition that has been fed to the public.

How do you judge which are the fat people to blame for their conditions and which ones get a 'pass' due to their other conditions, and who makes that judgement (you can't tell just by looking). Maybe they could get a special card that they present to show they are deserving of larger seating, or to give to those verbally abusing them, to show they're not one of 'those' fat people.

We shouldn't celebrate morbid obesity any more than we should celebrate any other abnormal adverse health condition. But just like we wouldn't try to ostracise a person with a disability or health condition, (we take steps to ensure they are included) we shouldn't limit obese people's access to the world. This is a health issue, not a terrible sin that they have committed.
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  #54   ^
Old Thu, Jun-30-16, 16:27
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leemack leemack is offline
NEVER GIVING UP!
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Plan: no sugar/grains LCHF IF
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khrussva
That is the fly in the ointment to me and the justification/ammunition used by fat shamers everywhere. The success rate for those who take the weight off and keep it off is dismal. What if you took a class at school where 95% of the students failed? Year after year, class after class after class nearly every student failed. Would you blame the students? Or is something else going on? Bad teacher? Bad curriculum? Bad classroom environment? Any or all of the above? In that situation I don't think society would find the students at fault. Not if virtually everybody was failing the class. Something else is wrong. Something else needs to be addressed.

Not so with obesity. If you are super sized, then it is your fault. Stop shoving food in your face. Problem solved. Yes - except that only a select few seem to be able to do that. Being fat is not the problem. It is a symptom of the problem. I don't think obesity should be celebrated or embraced. Fat people just don't know what to do to not be fat. Even for those who have not given up, the prevailing solutions offered don't work. The curriculum is the heart of problem. Our food supply certainly doesn't help, either. A solution to obesity won't happen until people are taught a solution that actually works.

I never liked being obese for a second. I dieted and failed at dieting for years. Decades. Most of my dieting was trying to do low carb. It still didn't work. No fat shamer ever had to work so hard at trying to control what they eat. I didn't fail because I didn't try. I failed because I did not know the secret to making this WOE work. Society does not teach it. In fact, society preaches against what I do. So what chance did I have? Slim to none.


Great post Ken
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  #55   ^
Old Thu, Jun-30-16, 17:33
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cotonpal cotonpal is online now
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Leemack and Ken,

Thank you both for your posts which eloquently state what I believe. Kindness and compassion not blame should motivate our actions.

Jean
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  #56   ^
Old Thu, Jun-30-16, 18:29
MickiSue MickiSue is offline
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I read an article is Aeon, an online mag from the UK.

It started out with a discussion of the patients of a particular doctor, who baffled him. They'd all been morbidly obese, and come to him for weight loss. Following the program closely, many, many of them came >< this close to their goals, and then stopped following the program and regained all their weight.

His question was: why? Why did so many people who'd worked so hard suddenly just stop?

Over time, he came to know that a significant numbers of his obese patients had had trauma in childhood. Parents who were abusive. Parents who were mentally ill. Absentee parents. Criminal parents. And that, physiologically, these patients were abnormal. They suffered more from anxiety, they had other issues that were not necessarily weight related.

So he and a colleague did a study, on over a thousand patients at the Cleveland Clinic. They had the patients answer a very thorough questionnaire about their childhoods, and gave scores based on the number and severity of traumatic childhood events that the person had experienced.

Many had none. Even more had one. But once the numbers started to climb, to 3 or more, the likelihood that the patient, whether obese or of normal weight, would, as an adult, have significant health challenges rose.

So. Back to fat acceptance. How many people here can relate to those patients with multiple traumatic childhood events? How many of those who have given up on losing weight can? How many can see that it's not even only the food. Because if we assume that obesity is a failing in us, then we continue to fail. And if we find a way to help ourselves lose the weight, but are afraid of being normal, because we've never, ever known it, then what?

I read some of that blog about the troubling claims of Ragan Chastain. And, so far as I can see, she's severely mentally ill. She has built an entire backstory that simply CANNOT be true; it's too much to believe, yet she has people who insist that it's true.

What things happened to Ragan Chastain, to lead her to create a backstory about a superhuman young woman and child?

Yes, this is very much a social justice issue. And it's high time that people start looking beyond the surface of other human beings, to see what may be the sources for what is seen.
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  #57   ^
Old Thu, Jun-30-16, 19:01
Novelist2B
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Wow, I'm apparently doing a terrible job of making my point. I'm all for education, tolerance, peace, love and understanding. But not glorification of something that is unhealthy.

Stay big, stay beautiful. You're wonderful.

Really?

I will never celebrate being overweight.

Good luck with the movement. I think it is flawed in its logic. It makes me wonder why anyone on this forum was motivated to lose weight, if it was so wonderful to be heavy. If you had felt "accepted," would you have made any attempt to change?
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  #58   ^
Old Thu, Jun-30-16, 19:34
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leemack leemack is offline
NEVER GIVING UP!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Novelist2B
Wow, I'm apparently doing a terrible job of making my point. I'm all for education, tolerance, peace, love and understanding. But not glorification of something that is unhealthy.

Stay big, stay beautiful. You're wonderful.

Really?

I will never celebrate being overweight.

Good luck with the movement. I think it is flawed in its logic. It makes me wonder why anyone on this forum was motivated to lose weight, if it was so wonderful to be heavy. If you had felt "accepted," would you have made any attempt to change?


You're also deliberating misinterpreting what has been said. Nobody said that at all. In fact I stated more than once that obesity shouldn't be celebrated - but suggesting I did makes it easier to ignore what I actually wrote, I guess.

For your information I hate my body, my health is awful, my mobility is poor, and I leave the house as little as possible - all of them for dr appts. I battle to lose weight and improve my health every day....and it is a battle. The last thing I need is to be treated like a substandard person, undeserving of driving a car or taking a plane, just because of my weight. I doubt society will change anytime soon, but I can still wish.
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  #59   ^
Old Thu, Jun-30-16, 19:39
MickiSue MickiSue is offline
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Well said, Lee.

I understand only a tiny bit of the battle that you fight, every day. And I admire the hell out of your willingness to keep battling.

I can't say that I truly understand. But I hope that if enough people are willing to try to understand the multi factorial causes of obesity, very, very few if any of which have to do with will power, laziness or gluttony, then perhaps there really will be a social justice movement for the obese that includes people of all sizes.
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  #60   ^
Old Fri, Jul-01-16, 06:41
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Seejay Seejay is offline
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I like your examples, Lee. It's such a mistake to look at fat people and assume they did it to themselves and should be blamed and shamed until they are thin, and not be accomodated.

And well said, too Ken.

Accepting the reality of being fat, without shaming, does not have to be the same as celebrating and flaunting, I don't think.

I think both extremes get into harmful prejudice.

On one extreme, fat celebration and uncritical embracing of fatness.
On the other extreme, assuming fatness is a choice that is always fixable. That is a belief, not a fact, that is literally not borne out by science today.
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