Thanks everybody for your thoughtful comments.

I think "poor diet acceptance" puts a whole 'nuther spin on the issue. "Poor diet acceptance" has become medical consensus, public policy (eg. school lunches), and an economic avalanche. Clearly we can't just say "live and let live" (or die, as the case may be).

I've invited Dr. Freedhoff to come over here and take a look at this thread.

At 28 I ate and drank what I liked and still had good health, excellent blood glucose and other blood results. At 41 my situation is rather different, I'm pre diabetic, have poor health and poor mobility and am limited to 'work at home' jobs due to health issues. This is what happens with poor diet compliance and hitting the carbs hard as a younger adult. I expect 'fat acceptance' is easier when younger or at lower levels of overweight and obesity - their opinions may change as they get older and sicker.

Great point, Leemack. I think it is easy to be judgmental about what others eat, but I'd say most of us - fat and thin - have indulged in some unhealthy eating habits until *something* triggers us to want to improve our health. And sometimes what we think - and what society thinks - is healthy eating turns out not to be.

I feel rather lucky that I embraced low carb before my health declined any more than it did (just about the time I turned 50). Of course, low carb often goes against what others think is healthy.

The young woman in Shrill is just as likely, and maybe more likely, to get unwelcome looks and comments by eating bacon and a bunless burger in public as she is for eating a low fat pretzel. I thought I was eating healthfully in the 90s eating pasta with marinara sauce (heavens, no fat filled Alfredo!) and low fat salad dressing - turned out for my body it was not at all healthful.

Thanks for bringing up this issue. I'd thought about it, but it is sort of hot button. For those who may be reading and don't know, there is the general body/fat acceptance movement, and then there is a more radical component that demands society completely reconfigure itself to accommodate morbid obesity. Some also feel humans have been molded by a toxic society to find high levels of body fat unattractive. I'm trying to be objective here, as I have certainly experienced fat shaming by my own parents (decades ago), but have never been morbidly obese. While I think a body acceptance movement is needed, I couldn't support a movement that represents extreme fatness as harmless and desirable, especially to young men and women.

Carbs are an addiction.

Meth makes you thin. Carbs make you fat. Meth is illegal. Carbs are sold, dirt cheap, on every corner.

Sugar and wheat are legalized mood altering drugs with terrible, long-term, side effects.

The science is there. And now I see my past self as someone whose eating disorder has been explained.

I was a junk food junkie.

Carbs are not only legal, they're pushed on us. Look at what's being told is good for us. See what's available for fast food--donuts, french fries, shakes, pizza...Carry out places feature fried chicken, bean burritos, even Chinese food...and then we wonder why we are so fat? And yes, they are so addicting. Sometimes I wonder if it's a plot on the part of the government to make us all sick so we become dependent...and under its control. Of course, my parents thought the Beatles were part of a Communist plot to infiltrate the minds of America's youth. I guess you can find a conspiracy theory anywhere if you look hard enough...lol

Seriously...it is a shame that carbs are so cheap and good food is not. Where I live in central Arkansas, I often see lower income (and often overweight) families at Walmart, their carts filled with boxed mac & cheese, chips, corn dogs, Little Debbies...you name it. It's all crap. I know how hard it is, because we struggle too. It's costly to buy groceries for a protein/fat-centered woe, especially when you try to buy organic.

Between being unable to afford it and being uninformed, so many people are doomed to a life of obesity and disease.

Ditto to everything you stated, Novelist, and it's even present in hospitals. No wonder people see this stuff as normal food, and once you're addicted to it, you'll defend to the death your access to it. My workplace is centered around 18-25 years olds and they just shovel crap in while shrugging their shoulders, even if they know about carbs. They just don't care. Even if you account for the impetuousness of youth, it's scary.

Even in U.S. culture, aversion to larger bodies is far from universal. Fat celebrities and skinny fashion models? Fat entrepreneurs and skinny CEOs? Fat brides and skinny spinsters? There's really no way to sort out how fatness or thinness determine success, lovableness, or happiness. And by the way, men face the same challenges.

I agree that neither fatness nor thinness determines a person's happiness. As has been stated elsewhere, lots of skinny people are miserable and lots of obese people are happy. There are way too many factors that do (and should) impact one's sense of happiness, like relationships, jobs, faith, illness, finances, DNA, etc.

I also agree that there is too much emphasis on being thin/young/beautiful in our society. Many models are too thin and look anorexic, but since I don't know them or their circumstances personally, I can only say that I don't find that body type personally appealing; I cannot judge whether they're starving themselves. But conversely, I often wonder when I see someone who is grossly overweight (as I was) if they have health issues, and I feel a mixture of pity and curiosity. Having had serious health problems for the last 25 years and subsequently gained weight largely from medications, surgeries, inactivity and poor eating habits, I know what it feels like to be the object of scrutiny in a public place because of my weight. I did not like it. I hated having to squeeze into a booth at a restaurant, my stomach touching the table. I would never sit in anyone's lawn chairs lest I break them. I needed an extender for seat belts on airplanes. Forget the beach. I avoided pictures for years. Perhaps I'm not as self-confident as others who are big. I never will be, but I was insecure even when I was thin--thanks to critical parents who favored my "model" sister and not me with my less than perfect body. I no longer need their approval but it impacted my self-confidence for years...I'm better now (after lots of therapy!). Anyway, I think that extra weight of that magnitude is an indication that something is off-kilter. Being chubby is one thing. But being morbidly obese is quite another, and I'm not sure it should be "accepted." I'm not saying it should be ridiculed or judged, either. Perhaps compassion as a solution as opposed to "acceptance."

I don't think people who are mildly overweight should be judged. But morbidly obese people need help--in the form of kindness, sure, but also education and medical knowledge. I don't think we need an "Obese Lives Matter" movement to enable those who are drastically overweight to feel good about themselves. Sure, they should feel good about who they are as a person--their intelligence, their wit, their gifts--but feel good about being obese? No. Never. It should be something someone is NEVER comfortable with being. There should always be a desire to change that aspect of one's self, for health reasons, if nothing else. Find out what medical issues are causing your weight to be so high and see what you can do to improve it. Change the way you eat. In most cases you can take some action. Weight is something you have the ability to impact, unlike a physical handicap or disability. My friend who's been in a wheelchair due to spinal cord tumors since age 21 cannot change that. He does keep his weight under control, though. People who judge him are small-minded jerks. But a large percentage of obese people have the ability to change how they eat and make an impact on their weight...and that's part of the reason why they are looked upon with disdain. Sure, many have health issues (like me), take meds that cause weight gain (like me), or have other "legitimate" reasons for being obese. I have a lousy metabolism. But I also used to eat bread at every meal. I rarely skipped dessert. I was careless and ignorant. That is a poor excuse.

I've been harder on myself than anyone else ever was. Every time I started a new med and gained weight or was in bed for months from illness and felt my already meager muscle tone diminish some more, it was depressing. I felt so hopeless. I thought nothing would work so for a long time I quit trying. I'll bet a lot of people feel that way too. But I never thought I should be enabled.

I've been living in the world of obesity for a while and I'm still the same person I've always been--the one I was at a size 6 in my 30's, gaining until a size 28 and now as a size 14 in my 50's. My outer shell has changed. I'm aging. I have wrinkles, scars, stretch marks and graying hair. I can tell you, for me; yes, I feel much better since losing weight though I still have a way to go. But part of feeling better is psychological. I no longer attract attention when I'm out in public. I don't avoid pictures. I fit in booths and airplane seats. And how can that not make you happier? Don't get me wrong. If if doesn't bother you at all to be grossly overweight, be the subject of stares and ridicule, to break chairs and require nearly two seats on an airplane, that's awesome. You are a much more secure person that I am. But maybe a little less self-assuredness might be the catalyst for some people to finally get on the LC bandwagon and get healthier and maybe happier, too.

All of this is just my own opinion, my perspective. Sorry for such a long post.

There may be no exact measure, but I can tell you that being obese WILL and does impact one's ability to get a job, find a mate. It may not be the only factor determining success, lovableness or happiness, but it is a huge factor, no matter how self-assured one tells themselves they are.

I have a friend who is 55. She is about 5 feet tall and weighs 350. She works for a large hotel chain and is trying to transfer to Florida to be near family. She's had phone interviews that have gone well, but when they meet her face-to-face, she has not done well. Part of it is due to her sheer size and inability to get around easily. She is not achieving success, despite her abilities. Her weight is impacting her career and her happiness. She is single, too. Does she find joy in other aspects of her life? Of course. She is witty, intelligent, hard-working...very lovable. But her weight is a barrier to achieving lots of things and may end up shortening her life.

There are many more successful "skinny" celebrities than fat ones. There are many more pretty/handsome actors than ugly ones. It's what we want to look at, what we want to swoon over. Even though we all know it's not right, being grossly overweight gives the impression that one is either lazy, undisciplined or has some kind of flaw. I'm betting she would not encounter the same barriers if she was only slightly overweight.

I don't have all the answers. But I see enough of the prejudice against the grossly overweight and have experienced it first hand...and while it sucks, it was one of the factors that spurred me to action. I don't think we should ridicule anyone. But I don't think we should be offering warm and fuzzies, either.

Yes. Sadly, sadly, yes.

That's the thing. Don't tell us something is "okay" when it is not. Absolutely, any of us could be dealing with the same problems, or other ones that impact our lives.

Last night DH & I went to a work function which featured wagon rides. DH deliberately accompanied a person with a stroke so DH could help him get on and off the wagon. He could have asked for help, but he had not. But he accepted help from a friendly person when it was offered.

So yes, there are many kinds of difficulties, and we should never treat a person as anyone less because of them. If he could change his diet and be more mobile?

I bet he would.

Novelist2B, I read every word of your story, and the following post. Thanks for taking time to write it. Many here have had similar experiences and consequent views--not supposition, but realization.

Weight, and opinions about it, reflect many categories:
--never fat, effortlessly lean
--slim or athletic child who gets fat (and fatter) in adulthood
--chubby or obese child (whether or not they get bullied and criticized for it)
--yo-yo dieters
--once overweight or obese, successful maintainers (undoubtedly the smallest group!)
--nutritionists, endocrinologists, biochemists, dietitians, cardiologists, PCPs, personal trainers, and best-selling diet writers

We all have our stories.

Sure, absolutely agree. People are rightly attracted to all sorts of bodies, and you are right about success/happiness. Society certainly does favor the skinny and the beautiful, but I don't think it bears the responsibility for making people not finding, say, 350-plus pound bodies attractive in general. Having said that, the negative experiences laid on larger people do absolutely nothing to help them, and if someone is comfortable with their weight, that's their own dang business.

When I have a problem is when some "fat activists," as they refer to themselves, advocate ignoring or verbally trashing doctors who bring up their weight, tell young people that it's perfectly fine to eat whatever they want, assert weight has zero effect on health and attack anyone who politely says otherwise as "concern trolls." Honestly, I don't know how prevalent these people are, but they are out there. I just hope they don't have undue influence on body positivity movement.

I see this as a problem though. With others with perceived faults, people disapprove of the fault while still accepting the person, with obesity it's the whole person that tends to be 'disapproved' of. For instance, I have friends who smoke and I really hate smoking, so I hate their habit, but love them as they are great people. But with obesity, particularly morbid obesity it's the whole person who is disapproved of, the obesity taints every way that person is looked at, even by friends and colleagues. I've never had problems getting jobs and have always been treated really well at work with a few exceptions for individuals who looked at me like I was a contagious freak, but there have been more examples than I can mention or even remember of people treating me differently due to my size.

I don't expect people to tell me to stay the way I am and not worry about weight loss (the warm fuzzies), but then I don't expect them to volunteer opinions about weight loss at all unless I bring up the topic.

What I don't feel is right is being judged solely or mainly on my weight, it is just a part of who I am -I have other great attributes and plenty of faults The way I see it - give me the warm fuzzies or the brush off for who I am, don't judge me on the weight I carry around.........I know this isn't going to happen but it's my idea of what fat acceptance should be - accept I'm fat, get over it, get to know me, leave my weight and health to me, as you would with any other person's medical/health issues. But of course this isn't what the current fat acceptance movement is about.

it gets tricky. Does this assume excess weight is a cause? when is it a cause, and when is it an effect?

I am fat and metabolically healthy by common markers: HbA1c, cholesterol, blood pressure, FBS. So I have a little fun when people say it's unhealthy, to ask, "by what measure?" and then see what they think. It is interesting to hear the responses to say the least.