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  #1231   ^
Old Thu, Jul-25-19, 08:45
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 13,768
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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https://www.sciencedaily.com/releas...90724103702.htm

Quote:
Meal timing strategies appear to lower appetite, improve fat burning

Researchers have discovered that meal timing strategies such as intermittent fasting or eating earlier in the daytime appear to help people lose weight by lowering appetite rather than burning more calories, according to a report. The study is the first to show how meal timing affects 24-hour energy metabolism when food intake and meal frequency are matched.


Quote:
Coordinating meals with circadian rhythms, or your body's internal clock, may be a powerful strategy for reducing appetite and improving metabolic health," said Eric Ravussin, PhD, one of the study's authors and associate executive director for clinical science at Louisiana State University's Pennington Biomedical Research Center in Baton Rouge.

"We suspect that a majority of people may find meal timing strategies helpful for losing weight or to maintain their weight since these strategies naturally appear to curb appetite, which may help people eat less," said Courtney M. Peterson, PhD, lead author of the study and an assistant professor in the Department of Nutrition Sciences at the University of Alabama at Birmingham.

Peterson and her colleagues also report that meal timing strategies may help people burn more fat on average during a 24-hour period. Early Time-Restricted Feeding (eTRF) -- a form of daily intermittent fasting where dinner is eaten in the afternoon -- helped to improve people's ability to switch between burning carbohydrates for energy to burning fat for energy, an aspect of metabolism known as metabolic flexibility. The study's authors said, however, that the results on fat-burning are preliminary. "Whether these strategies help people lose body fat need to be tested and confirmed in a much longer study," said Peterson.

For the study, researchers enrolled 11 adult men and women who had excess weight. Participants were recruited between November 2014 and August 2016. Adults, in general good health, aged 20-to-45-years old were eligible to participate if they had a body mass index between 25 and 35 kg/m2 (inclusive), body weight between 68 and 100 kg, a regular bedtime between 9:30 p.m. and 12 a.m., and for women, a regular menstrual cycle.

Participants tried two different meal timing strategies in random order: a control schedule where participants ate three meals during a 12-hour period with breakfast at 8:00 a.m. and dinner at 8:00 p.m. and an eTRF schedule where participants ate three meals over a six-hour period with breakfast at 8:00 a.m. and dinner at 2:00 p.m. The same amounts and types of foods were consumed on both schedules. Fasting periods for the control schedule included 12 hours per day, while the eTRF schedule involved fasting for 18 hours per day.

Study participants followed the different schedules for four days in a row. On the fourth day, researchers measured the metabolism of participants by placing them in a respiratory chamber -- a room-like device -- where researchers measured how many calories, carbohydrates, fat and protein were burned. Researchers also measured the appetite levels of participants every three hours while they were awake, as well as hunger hormones in the morning and evening.

Although eTRF did not significantly affect how many calories participants burned, the researchers found that eTRF did lower levels of the hunger hormone ghrelin and improved some aspects of appetite. It also increased fat-burning over the 24-hour day.

"By testing eTRF, we were able to kill two birds with one stone," said Peterson, adding that the researchers were able to gain some insight into daily intermittent fasting (time restricted-feeding), as well as meal timing strategies that involve eating earlier in the daytime to be in sync with circadian rhythms. The researchers believe that these two broader classes of meal timing strategies may have similar benefits to eTRF.

Hollie Raynor, PhD, RD, LDN, who was not associated with the research, said "this study helps provide more information about how patterns of eating, and not just what you eat, may be important for achieving a healthy weight." Raynor is a professor and interim dean of research in the Department of Nutrition, College of Education, Health, and Human Sciences at The University of Tennessee, Knoxville.

Peterson and colleagues said prior research was conflicted on whether meal timing strategies help with weight loss by helping people burn more calories or by lowering appetite. Studies in rodents suggest such strategies burn more calories, but data from human studies were conflicting -- some studies suggested meal timing strategies increase calories burned, but other reports showed no difference. The study's authors said, however, that previous studies did not directly measure how many calories people burned or were imperfect in other ways.




I find it a little amusing that the writer felt the need to explain that a chamber is 'room-like.'

Quote:
previous studies did not directly measure how many calories people burned or were imperfect in other ways.


I think this study finds its own way to be imperfect. They mention rodent studies where the approach resulted in increased calories burned. With the ketogenic diet, you'll often see it said that rodents will overeat the diet if fed ad-lib-so it's only effective calorie restricted, right? Not really. Some animals will get fatter on a ketogenic diet--as they will on just a higher fat diet. Simply putting a running wheel in the cage--making spontaneous exercise more appealing to the animals--increases the calories they burn. It doesn't take willpower or discipline, it's just their natural drive to move expressing itself in that slightly altered environment. I think if we think that this doesn't apply to us, we're just not paying attention. The metabolic ward is a controlled environment. And it's an intervention--it's good for measuring the metabolic rate in that controlled environment, it can't measure a possible increased tendency to move about in a more enriched environment. Also if the eating style decreases appetite, I have to ask an obvious question. Exercise can increase appetite--will it increase appetite as much with this sort of meal timing as it would with a longer eating window?
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  #1232   ^
Old Thu, Jul-25-19, 09:14
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 13,768
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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Something by the wayside in the CICO/calories matter or don't thingum--appetite and drive to exercise--these natural drives matter, and they tend to win. When food intake is an issue, it's not the behaviour--but the drive behind the behaviour that needs to be addressed, or the probable result is just going to be failure.
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  #1233   ^
Old Fri, Jul-26-19, 07:35
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 11,222
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
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or the drive/hunger to win. Phil Michelson fasts for 6 days (with a wellness coffee he will surely be promoting soon) https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/i...n-turns-fasting You know fasting has gone mainstream when old golfers do it
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  #1234   ^
Old Fri, Jul-26-19, 09:07
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 3,132
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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Yep, I've seen him on drug ads for Psoriatic Arthritis.

He must be refining his coffee recipe from this:

https://www.golf.com/tour-news/2017...d-coffee-recipe
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  #1235   ^
Old Fri, Jul-26-19, 09:18
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 13,768
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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I'm gonna stick with my no doubt bullet-ridden Folgers with lots of heavy cream and stevia (I'd switch to splenda if they'd just start bulking with erythritol. It's the little bit of carbs I'm trying to avoid, I don't buy that the one all 'natural' sweetener is the only one that won't kill me). Also salt. I'm up to three teaspoons of half salt per pot.

Also I find cacao nibs pretentious. I'll stick to cocoa nibs. But they are yummy.
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  #1236   ^
Old Fri, Jul-26-19, 15:05
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 11,222
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GRB5111
Yep, I've seen him on drug ads for Psoriatic Arthritis.

He must be refining his coffee recipe from this:

https://www.golf.com/tour-news/2017...d-coffee-recipe


whaatt??? I haven't even heard of those things We have come a long way from Arnold Palmer tea!

A completely unscientific survey of the senior golfers in my community would indicate that a "fast" means only drinking beer from 9am to 2pm, before tucking into a double cheeseburger, brioche bun, with fries at the nineteenth hole.
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  #1237   ^
Old Sat, Jul-27-19, 06:37
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Posts: 12,003
 
Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/123/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 139%
Location: USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GRB5111
Yep, I've seen him on drug ads for Psoriatic Arthritis.


One of the things that keeps me on the straight and Keto is my fear of such immunosuppressive drugs.
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  #1238   ^
Old Sat, Jul-27-19, 07:04
cotonpal's Avatar
cotonpal cotonpal is offline
Posts: 4,581
 
Plan: very low carb real food
Stats: 245/128/135 Female 62
BF:
Progress: 106%
Location: Vermont
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There's nothing particularly exotic about how Michelson makes his coffee. The Presse he uses to make the coffee is just a version of a French Press. I've been using a french press for over 30 years as have many other people. The kind of coffee he uses is just a type of coffee grown in a certain region of Ethiopia. There are lots of coffees grown in lots of different places named by the country and region they are grown in. Lots of people are particular about the kind of coffee they use. Coffee beans like wine can be identified by where they are grown. And then he adds a bunch of stuff to it. Lots of people prepare fancy coffee drinks. Big deal Not a magic elixir, just a coffee drink he enjoys.
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  #1239   ^
Old Tue, Jul-30-19, 10:08
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 3,132
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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An informative email and posting this week from IDM regarding the basic science of Fasting and Autophagy:
https://idmprogram.com/fasting-and-...bc0bb-102468937
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  #1240   ^
Old Tue, Jul-30-19, 12:09
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 12,401
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 255/214/153 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 40%
Location: Massachusetts
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Thanks ROb, A gooooood read. The end brought me to this which answered my question about LCHF versus IF 23/1......

https://idmprogram.com/power-compar...arb-fasting-26/

Though I dont know for sure how many days of consecutive fasting was used as "fasting" , the presentation of the data makes me think these were 24 hour studies.........
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  #1241   ^
Old Wed, Jul-31-19, 06:16
bluesinger's Avatar
bluesinger bluesinger is offline
Posts: 4,213
 
Plan: Atkins 72~Induction
Stats: 170/140/140 Female 62 inches
BF:24%
Progress: 100%
Location: Nevada Desert, USA
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My body seems to be at a point where only ADF keeps me from gaining. Old body. Time for a trade-in.
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  #1242   ^
Old Wed, Jul-31-19, 06:42
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 13,768
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ms Arielle
Thanks ROb, A gooooood read. The end brought me to this which answered my question about LCHF versus IF 23/1......

https://idmprogram.com/power-compar...arb-fasting-26/

Though I dont know for sure how many days of consecutive fasting was used as "fasting" , the presentation of the data makes me think these were 24 hour studies.........



Quote:
Even then, the carb-free diet does remarkably well giving you 71% of the benefits of the fasting, without actual fasting.


But this sort of depends on what you're judging things by. Actually being nourished by the food is not not a benefit. Also I think a ketogenic diet might give us a softer place to land after a fast. Fasting and a higher carb, or worse, a SAD diet in between--there's a thread in the War Zone where a dietician accuses intermittent fasting of causing binges, and I think with the wrong diet, that could be more likely.
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  #1243   ^
Old Wed, Jul-31-19, 09:25
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 12,401
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 255/214/153 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 40%
Location: Massachusetts
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There are also studies that show effective weight loss by closing the eating window, even eating SAD. KETO not necessary for weight loss in the studies.

As we know, YMMV....
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  #1244   ^
Old Wed, Jul-31-19, 10:31
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 13,768
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
Default

Agreed. I'm not disputing fasting's effectiveness--only its supposed superiority to low carb.

If we were going to compare fasting to low carb--what is being eaten when the person is not fasting? If somebody is fasting, eating SAD, fasting again, should we just count what happens when they're fasting, and compare it to somebody eating low carb with minimal fasting? Or should we include both the fasting and feeding periods? Certainly fasting is effective, but it doesn't really answer the question of what we should eat when we inevitably do.

I find the mouse studies most convincing for meal timing/smaller eating windows. Human studies have a bit of a problem in that when people are eating, during their smaller eating windows, they're not generally blinded to what they're eating. The mice aren't blinded either, but they're probably not really motivated to do anything but have their natural appetite have its way when food is available. In the case of humans, I could see this restraint actually interfering with the effectiveness of fasting--if somebody tricks themself, restraining their eating rather than just eating slightly less because of an effect of fasting on their appetite, that could make later binges more likely and hurt the effectiveness.

It would be an interesting study to fast people and refeed them on food that's reasonably palatable, but hard to estimate the calories for.
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  #1245   ^
Old Wed, Jul-31-19, 10:43
bluesinger's Avatar
bluesinger bluesinger is offline
Posts: 4,213
 
Plan: Atkins 72~Induction
Stats: 170/140/140 Female 62 inches
BF:24%
Progress: 100%
Location: Nevada Desert, USA
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I'd like to throw in the Abstainer/Moderator factor. The Carbohydrate Addicts Diet can work for Moderators, but rarely for Abstainers. Binging during Reward Meal is commonplace, and I speak from experience.

I'm an Abstainer.

Is it the psychological permission implied by the term "Reward Meal" which brings this about? Is it the individual response to this? I can say, again from experience, that isn't my response to Fasting. Not unless my mind is in the wrong place. Ordinarily, ADF is just that for me, Fasting one day, eating keto the next day.
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