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  #46   ^
Old Fri, Jul-22-16, 05:09
thud123's Avatar
thud123 thud123 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 5,163
 
Plan: ~25NC/IF
Stats: 342.2/207/000 Male 182cm
BF:
Progress: 40%
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Wow Bintang! that's a lot of data to enter and thank you for doing that! I have not kept track of any macros on my journey, only the lowliest and disparaged Net Carb I have also not tracked food timing and only been moderately interested in total calories per day. I'm also tempted to due a sucrose experiement at some point and see what it feels like to be "kicked out of ketoisis" Oh well...

What tools did you use to track all the food input into your body?
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  #47   ^
Old Fri, Jul-22-16, 05:21
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 13,581
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inflammabl
The increase in ketones after a meal of MCT might be indirect. That is the dietary fat goes into the energy pool.... reduces the bodies consumption of ketones... more AcAc and BHOB is converted into Acetone.... and acetone increases because it stops being metabolized when we eat more fat than our body is asking for.

So ketonix measures just one ketone, Acetone, a ketone that is not made directly from fat. Second ketones are a "difference" variable, that is a quantity that is the difference between two different processes, generation and consumption of ketones. So it's hard to say why, exactly, there are more or less.



Interesting point... reminds me of this

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2671041/

Basically, looking at effects of MCT's vs hypoglycemia. They mention that MCT's can readily cross the blood brain barrier, so besides contributing to ketone production in the liver, they can get past that obstacle to fat oxidation as a direct energy source for the brain.

Quote:
Medium-chain triglycerides, a source of medium-chain fatty acids, have been widely used for nutritional support and in patients with malabsorption (10,25). Medium-chain fatty acids are rapidly absorbed and oxidized in the liver. This results in an excess of acetyl-CoA, and in turn the rapid production of ketones (10), an energy source for the brain (3,5,7). Furthermore, medium-chain fatty acids readily cross the BBB and are metabolized by the brain (13). Therefore, medium-chain fatty acids could directly and/or indirectly, via the generation of ketones, act to preserve brain function during hypoglycemia by provision of alternative fuels without raising blood glucose levels in patients with type 1 diabetes.

Medium-chain triglyceride ingestion raised plasma β-hydroxybutyrate and FFA levels during insulin-induced hypoglycemia, and thus both fuels might contribute to the observed effects on cognitive performance. The hippocampal slice data, however, suggest that the predominant impact of medium-chain fatty acids is mediated via the generation of ketones. β-Hydroxybutyrate supported synaptic transmission both at rest and during stimulus trains when glucose supply was deficient, whereas octanoate alone was ineffective. The failure to see an effect of octanoate in the hippocampal slice preparation reflects a time-dependent effect, and longer prior exposure to medium-chain fatty acids might have improved neuronal function. Alternatively, these findings may be explained by differences in brain metabolism of ketones and medium-chain fatty acids. Evidence suggests that octanoate is exclusively metabolized by astrocytes (13,26,27), whereas ketones are oxidized by both neurons and astrocytes (28,29). The finding that octanoate was able to improve the rate of recovery of synaptic function upon restoration of control glucose concentrations, but not the response to hypoglycemia itself, is consistent with the hypothesis that astrocytes may be critical for the restoration of synaptic function after a metabolic challenge such as hypoglycemia.
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  #48   ^
Old Fri, Jul-22-16, 07:10
Bintang's Avatar
Bintang Bintang is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 258
 
Plan: MyOwn:CHO<90g/d
Stats: 207/149/150 Male 169 cm
BF:40%/17%/18%
Progress: 102%
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thud123
What tools did you use to track all the food input into your body?
I tried MyFitnessPal Diet Tracker for a few weeks** and looked at a few similar apps but I found them all too limiting and unwieldy. Eventually I developed my own customised system using Excel and based around the USDA nutritional database.

I have only made the effort to track food timing during the last few weeks while testing the ketonix as I wanted to avoid the results being confounded too much by variations in the timing of meals.

**PS: You might notice from the chart that my actual weight loss commenced end of April 2015 but my detailed tracking of macros starts in June 2015. Part of the reason for that is that during the period April to June I was trying to use MyFitnessPal and other apps and ended up with incomplete records.

Last edited by Bintang : Fri, Jul-22-16 at 10:58.
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  #49   ^
Old Fri, Jul-22-16, 07:31
Bintang's Avatar
Bintang Bintang is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 258
 
Plan: MyOwn:CHO<90g/d
Stats: 207/149/150 Male 169 cm
BF:40%/17%/18%
Progress: 102%
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inflammabl
I tried the blood meter but the results were so variable that conclusions were difficult. A higher sampling rate was required and I hated paying for the strips when I wasn't even sure they were going to tell me anything.

I wanted to do blood testing a long time back but also figured that useful results would require high sampling frequency and hence be too costly. Pity I did not find out about the ketonix sooner.
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  #50   ^
Old Fri, Jul-22-16, 10:57
Bintang's Avatar
Bintang Bintang is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 258
 
Plan: MyOwn:CHO<90g/d
Stats: 207/149/150 Male 169 cm
BF:40%/17%/18%
Progress: 102%
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
Basically, looking at effects of MCT's vs hypoglycemia. They mention that MCT's can readily cross the blood brain barrier, so besides contributing to ketone production in the liver, they can get past that obstacle to fat oxidation as a direct energy source for the brain.
Given that coconut oil has a very high MCT content does this mean that coconut oil is especially good to consume - more so than other oils and fats?
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  #51   ^
Old Fri, Jul-22-16, 11:26
Bintang's Avatar
Bintang Bintang is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 258
 
Plan: MyOwn:CHO<90g/d
Stats: 207/149/150 Male 169 cm
BF:40%/17%/18%
Progress: 102%
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by inflammabl
The increase in ketones after a meal of MCT might be indirect. That is the dietary fat goes into the energy pool.... reduces the bodies consumption of ketones... more AcAc and BHOB is converted into Acetone.... and acetone increases because it stops being metabolized when we eat more fat than our body is asking for.

So ketonix measures just one ketone, Acetone, a ketone that is not made directly from fat. Second ketones are a "difference" variable, that is a quantity that is the difference between two different processes, generation and consumption of ketones. So it's hard to say why, exactly, there are more or less.
I have just discovered a presentation on the ketonix website about "Breath versus Blood Testing" https://www.ketonix.com/index.php?o...mid=630&lang=en

The extract below might be of interest:

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  #52   ^
Old Sat, Jul-23-16, 18:05
inflammabl's Avatar
inflammabl inflammabl is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,063
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 296/220/205 Male 71 inches
BF:25%?
Progress: 84%
Location: GSP and FLL
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Oh that's cool.

When I visited with Dr. Westman I was convinced that the liver's first order time constant was four days. This was based on blood tests. While that may not be true for every keto-liver mechanism, I suspect it is generally true-ish.

Regarding Acetone correlating to glucose... what the heck? Eh, thinking through that one, since both are at the top end of the body's preference for fuel sources, I would suspect whatever affects the consumption of one also affects the consumption of the other. The production might be totally different but maybe they find positive correlation through consumption mechanisms.
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  #53   ^
Old Sat, Jul-23-16, 18:21
inflammabl's Avatar
inflammabl inflammabl is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,063
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 296/220/205 Male 71 inches
BF:25%?
Progress: 84%
Location: GSP and FLL
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Well I just read that nifty link you provided. Glucose and acetone are negatively correlated so my speculation was 100% incorrect. Oh well.
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  #54   ^
Old Sat, Jul-23-16, 19:41
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 13,581
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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The part about high ketosis increasing beta hydroxybutyrate over time sort of bugs me... since the highest levels of blood ketones are reached when beta hydroxybutyrate is at its highest, elevated beta hydroxybutyrate pretty much is high ketosis. Maybe high and sustained ketogenesis is what's meant here?

"Acetone indicates ketogenesis"--taken literally, I'd read this as acetone having a more direct relation to total ketone production than to blood ketones. Which certainly could make sense, if that's the claim. I don't know if the claim would be justified, or if they're actually making it, but it sounds potentially sensible.

Wikipedia shows acetone as a spontaneous breakdown product of the other ketone bodies... but you have to be a bit careful using the term spontaneous with biochemistry. No doubt all sorts of non-spontaneous variations in the cellular milieu might increase or decrease the rate of this reaction, even without more targeted enzyme activity etc.



Bintang said;

Quote:
Given that coconut oil has a very high MCT content does this mean that coconut oil is especially good to consume - more so than other oils and fats?


I'm not really sure how far I'd go with that. I would say that it's a very special oil, though--special enough that using it in the case of groups that eat large amounts of coconut as an illustration that saturated fat is generally safe is probably faulty. I'm not saying that saturated fat is dangerous, just that coconut oil is an inappropriate ambassador for butter and lard. And the idea that the medium chain fatty acids might protect vs. hypoglycemia in more than one way seems worth looking into. In the context of a more generally ketogenic diet, protection vs. hypoglycemia might be strong enough to make any contribution medium chain fats might make by being able to cross the blood brain barrier superfluous. The study suggested the more direct action of mct's was to help speed up recovery from a hypo, in addition to other fuels--where the ketones pretty much in and of themselves prevented and reversed hypos. So this might partly explain the effectiveness of a less ketogenic diet that includes mct oils vs epilepsy, or even the effectiveness in Alzheimer's that Mary Newport claims for her husband when coconut oil was stirred into his oatmeal.
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  #55   ^
Old Fri, Feb-10-17, 07:46
thud123's Avatar
thud123 thud123 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 5,163
 
Plan: ~25NC/IF
Stats: 342.2/207/000 Male 182cm
BF:
Progress: 40%
Default

I was just checking out the diet doctor site (I don't have a membership there) and noticed the guy that makes the Ketonic device had a lecture and maybe a new video on Diet Doctor. Listening to the youtube one now...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjXyfr1uy_I

Diet Doctor link to news item...

https://www.dietdoctor.com/member/p...ions/lundell-sd

Let me know if the second one is any good

Just a sample of what you can do, my numbers recently output from charting...

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  #56   ^
Old Fri, Feb-10-17, 08:02
thud123's Avatar
thud123 thud123 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 5,163
 
Plan: ~25NC/IF
Stats: 342.2/207/000 Male 182cm
BF:
Progress: 40%
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This was an interesting slide from the presentation on youtube. I've included the time markers on the screen capture.

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  #57   ^
Old Fri, Feb-10-17, 17:40
Hiltm's Avatar
Hiltm Hiltm is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 278
 
Plan: LCHF
Stats: 236/220/185 Female 5' 9"
BF:
Progress: 31%
Location: Northern Virginia
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I'm amazed at ya'lls ketone levels! I just got Ketonix several days ago, and the highest level I've hit is 7ppm. I've been at 20 or less carbs a day, give or take since May.

Typical day; 24 oz coffee with 4 tablespoons HnH, 1 tbl. Coconut oil, 1/8 tsp of liquid stevia. I don't eat anything until about 1-2 pm, 2 eggs fried in butter with either 3 bacon or 3 link sausage,
Dinner: 4-6 oz protein with 1 cup broccoli or 2 cup salad.

Sometimes 1oz macadamia nuts.

Shouldn't I be registering higher? I'm going to ditch my coffee and cream this weekend, and avoid nuts. Maybe that will help?
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  #58   ^
Old Fri, Feb-10-17, 21:10
thud123's Avatar
thud123 thud123 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 5,163
 
Plan: ~25NC/IF
Stats: 342.2/207/000 Male 182cm
BF:
Progress: 40%
Default

couple things to check:

- Calibrate the device - read the manual I forget the procedure.

- Make sure the little holes line up (inner on device and outer on mouth piece)

- use the technique described in the manual. You want to use the air in the bottom of your lungs. Basically you blow out, not in, before you put your mouth on the device. Put another way, don't take a deep breath before blowing in like you would blowing up a balloon.

- If you are using a new one, there's a different scale now. The numbers you see above are not parts per million they are on a scale of 0-100. New ones read out in PPM I think so 7PPM would be about 75-80 something like that.

Don't worry, if you're actually ingesting 20 net or total carbs per day, you are most likely producing ketones. What all those ketones flying around are doing is somewhat speculative in my opinion.

To quote the great band TLC, "Don't go chasing waterfalls"
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  #59   ^
Old Fri, Feb-10-17, 21:49
Hiltm's Avatar
Hiltm Hiltm is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 278
 
Plan: LCHF
Stats: 236/220/185 Female 5' 9"
BF:
Progress: 31%
Location: Northern Virginia
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Thanks Thud. Yep, done all that, tested it a billion times.

And yes, I do have the newest USB version. So, the numbers you guys have been tossing around (70's and 90's) aren't PPM? Oh. Duh.

I was hoping this could teach me how to fine tune my weight loss. For what it's worth, I did hit a 10.7PPM this evening after a good fat dinner.
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  #60   ^
Old Sat, Feb-11-17, 00:28
inflammabl's Avatar
inflammabl inflammabl is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,063
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 296/220/205 Male 71 inches
BF:25%?
Progress: 84%
Location: GSP and FLL
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I hate to do this but I must.

Has there been any study whatsoever showing that higher ketones leads to more weigh loss?

Offered in a helpful spirit, here is a link to the P&V study, https://www.dropbox.com/s/ozbkbj6j3...sponse.pdf?dl=0 AFAIK, there is no mention the cyclists lost any weight let alone a correlation between blood ketones and weight loss.
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