I thought this would be the appropriate place to put this question as I have struggled with weight for years and have finally discovered what seems to be stopping me from losing weight (despite a healthy diet and lots of exercise).

I have often slipped into the low carb dieting with the mindset that I can't have any high GL carbs in my diet at all. It's very difficult and never works. I lose allot of muscle mass over a few months and end up very insulin resistant when I try to start having some high GL carbs again (like potato's and wholegrain bread).

So I have come to realize that the only way I can lose weight is to add a small amount of high GL carbs to every meal, with protein. For example a meal with two slices of bread or a couple of small potato''s seems to quench my hunger and let me maintain my energy levels and concentration. This is opposed to having none at all.

I just wanted to know why this is. I realize there's allot of talk out there about how your metabolism slows down if you don't get enough calories but I actually gain weight from no carbing after a few days. I'm very strict with meals and very disciplined. I get the required amount of calories and not more. COULD IT BE... that your body's reaction to low or not carbing stems from the state of your adrenals. I'm thinking that when I take on the no-carb diet regime my stress levels are getting out of control, my cortisol levels raise and I become very insulin resistant. This results in my body building up and dumping huge amounts of bloodsugar to my waistline. So by adding some simple carb (or better High GL healthy carbs) to my diet I start to lose weight as I have because my body is getting what it needs to function properly even at a minimum level. It's abstract but I think I'm close.

Are there any scientific facts which explain this? I'm trying to find out if there is anything backing up what I believe I have discovered about myself so I have put my theory forward (however misguided or not).

Looking forward to hearing from someone on this.

Hello. Trying to understand your question based on your info.
You are a male, just under 6ft tall and weigh 160 and want to drop 10 lbs to weigh 150?
Atkins is listed as your plan, which really has nothing to do with a zero carb diet and it also doesn't have anything to do with 2 slices of bread with your meals.

Maybe a little more info about where you are coming from would be helpful.

First thing I want to ask is, is your weight in pounds or kilograms? If pounds, your starting bmi was 23. There's a difference between somebody who's trying to lose excess body fat and somebody who's trying to get a six-pack.

Your height's in cm, but I don't want to assume from that that your weight is metric also, sometimes people mismatch these. The fact that you think you see a noticeable loss of muscle in a short amount of time makes me suspect that the weight is in pounds...

Again, if that weight is in pounds--the leaner you are, the more noticeable glycogen depletion is as apparent loss of muscle mass. The lean bodybuilders over at bodybuilding.com are always talking about looking "flat" during the week, when glycogen-depleted, but not on the weekend when they do their carb ups.

There have been some few studies of a ketogenic diet and weight lifting. I've seen Dr. D'Agostino talk about some recent ones. He described one where strength gains were equivalent on keto and higher carb while working out. The keto diet study ended with a carb-up--after the carb up, lean mass gain was greater on the keto diet than on the standard diet. He explained this as probably being due to the glycogen supercompensation that occurs when somebody does a period of lower carb followed by a large carbohydrate feeding.




I won't doubt your experience--but I think you should be careful about making the jump from your own personal experience to a general theory.

Gaining weight doesn't necessarily mean that your metabolism has slowed down. Water retention is a biggie. Low carb tends to make people lose excess water weight, but that's a tendency, not a universal occurrence. There are always outliers.

I should probably stop speculating until I know whether your weight's in pounds or kilograms. Oh well. In for a dollar...

If your weight is in pounds, that 150 pound goal is a bmi of 21.5. 3 points away from the "underweight" category... but the lowest levels of normal bmi are for small-boned ectomorphs. If you're fairly muscular, the point at which your body starts freaking out as body fat goes down will come at a higher bmi than that. The metabolism won't always be willing to take the level of leanness that we most desire lightly.

Thanks for coming back. I'm not interested in the figures at this point so I'm not going to get into my weight. What I'm trying to understand is how the addition or exclusion of higher end GL carbs affects weight loss. That's all.

If you restrict carbs for too long, can it raise cortisol levels in turn causing weight gain? I notice even the Atkins die does not eliminate carbs, it just restricts them to a very small amount (higher GL carbs). What is the reason for that? For the purpose of this question, that's where my interest lies.

When I'm talking about carbs, I'm not talking about beans and carrots, I'm talking about potatoes and bread (just examples).

Thank you again for taking the time to address my question, you clearly know allot on this subject. I'm no expert but I know my experiences have been real. No amount of exercise will help me reduce weight if I do not add a small amount of higher GL carbs to my diet (in small amounts with meals). I try to work things out. There are allot of wacky theories out there explaining why someone thinks this happens, and I have placed it with the endocrine system, wright or wrong.

To give you an example of my experience with this, up until 6 months ago for around a year I was running 45 km per week, doing weights and sleeping allot and eating vegetables and lean meat only. I couldn't lose weight until I added a bit of higher GL carbs to my diet. As strange as it sounds. I'm wondering why. This is why I have referred to how the Atkins diet allows a small amount of higher GL carb (there must be a reason). It stumped me for years and I feel like I have really discovered something about myself. Maybe there's a science out there which will put some meaning to it.

The figures in my profile are old so please pay not attention to them.

"The figures in my profile are old so please pay not attention to them."
You created your profile this morning.

Live near a bridge?

"If you restrict carbs for too long, can it raise cortisol levels in turn causing weight gain?" Answer: No

Have a nice day.

Your bodyweight is entirely relevant here. Your results are specific to you, and to your metabolic condition going in.

I think Atkins included low carb veggies more for their non-carbohydrate nutrients, rather than for the carbs. And the carb ladder both to increase the range of nutrients available, and to make the ongoing diet as pleasureable and non-draconian as it could be given an individual's personal carb tolerance.

Maybe I shouldn't intentionally feed a troll...




But this example happens for real, quite a bit. People who don't have much, if any weight to lose, try to live on lean meat and green veggies, and exercise themselves into the ground. Lots of exercise. Low calorie intake. These do not go well together. Women get more obvious signs that things are wrong--lose their monthly cycle etc. Men's hormones get trashed as well, but they don't have that monthly cycle to clue them in. This isn't about low carbohydrate, it's about eating enough to support a certain level of activity. Intermittent fasting sometimes gets trashed the same way.

I'm not trying to troll 'teaser'. I don't have the knowledge you do and I want to understand what's going on. I'm very muscular, have done allot of weights over the years but have never.... never been able to strip away the layers of fat around my upper legs, lower waistline and for the last then years, my chest. It could very well be a hormonal issue. I'm not sure your are reading my post but you are clearly very educated in this field or your experience has taught you allot. I didn't post those figures for help on my weight.. I am where I need to be now and feel great. I am just trying to understand why adding a higher GL Carb to my diet helped me lose weight.

I had allot of weight to lose when I implemented this regime. Flab mainly.

I think your last few sentences 'teaser' tells me something I'm trying to discover and this is what I'm trying to find out?

Thanks for replying to me and please be patient with me. I'm not trying to aggravate or troll.

I'm thinking, from your last couple of sentences, that what I needed was an gradual increase in the amount of carbs I took in to balance my hormones. Could that have been it from the start?

Again thanks..

I'm biased towards a ketogenic diet of course, that's why you find me on this board.

But with your described levels of activity and bodyweight--I think just plain getting enough calories in sort of trumps whether they come in as carbohydrate or fat, assuming that you don't have metabolic syndrome. If you look at bodybuilding.com, there's no end to the people who have gotten very lean and muscular while following a diet high in protein and moderate or even high in carbohydrate. There are also people who have managed this with a ketogenic approach, some with weekend carbups or targeted carbohydrate--maybe 25 grams--after weightlifting.

I find that I can tolerate large volumes of weight training while eating very low carb. But it does increase my appetite considerably. With lower levels of activity, I can restrict my calories, with higher levels, I just end up eating.

Paul Jaminet has a theory of glucose deficiency that I don't really accept. I just don't think there's a universal requirement. But I do think that there can be a conditional requirement. Ben Greenfield is an endurance cyclist, he did a stint on a ketogenic diet. He managed to stay in ketosis while eating as much as 100 grams of carbohydrate a day. It's possible that large amounts of certain kinds of exercise cause the body to run through glucose faster than an individual's gluconeogenic capacity. Resistance training is more glycolytic than running or cycling, usually--but what matters isn't just the level of anaerobic metabolism. Glucose broken down to pyruvic acid or lactate could either be recycled through gluconeogenesis back into glycogen stores, or the lactate and pyruvate can feed into aerobic metabolism, and that glucose carbon lost for good. Sprint-lactate is dumped into the system. Continue to run at a moderate pace--less glycolysis is required, but that lactate is a very ready fuel source.

Maybe you do need a bit more carbohydrate. I don't seem to--but while I work out, I don't do much endurance work, that type of exercise just triggers asthma for me.



There's theory, and then there's practice. I go with the assumption that if something works for somebody, anybody--then probably it will work for some other people as well. I don't really have a problem with "I added potato, and got better results, so this may work for other people as well--" but sometimes people will make a jump and say that everybody needs to add potato to their low carbohydrate diet--and this might help some, hurt others.

I'm not sure what you mean. I'm not pretending to know everything. The damn forum forces me to put figures in. I'm not asking you to evaluate them. I'm just trying to understand why my body reacts the way it does to carbs. If I have too much I get moobs. If I have too little I put on weigh around my waistline. Can you see what I'm asking?

Hi, Tom. I don't know if my two-cents will be of any use, but I'll give it a try. I'm sorry that LCing hasn't been a smooth WOE for you.

Have you done elimination protocols to control for other factors?

Here are a few of the things I have used as tests in my elimination protocols:

Eliminating: PUFA, processed/packaged foods

Eating only grass-fed/pastured meat, wild fish, eggs from hens which eat bugs and worms (not GMO grains and soy)

Eliminating FODMAPs, oxalates, salicylates, goitrogens, nightshades, and fiber

----

Using a high-quality water purifier that eliminates fluoride and chlorine

Supplement testing: L-Carnitine and Acetyl-L-carnitine, for example.

I ask, because some of us have to control for multiple factors, not just amounts or types of carbs.

----


I have to limit protein amounts and types, and eat small, frequent meals. And, I keep lactose and casein very low.

I also found that resistance exercise, suited to my abilities, helps me tremendously. Mitochondrial health, brain function, neurotransmitters, endorphins, and all that....

Just a few ideas, in case they are of help.

I wish you success and good health.

Thanks again for that.. I understand what you are saying. The potato example comes from the fact that it's only starch. I don't mean 'just potato', I just used that as a high GL (Glycemic Load) example because it does not contain the proteins that grains do. If you are high in cortisol then your digestion suffers and you have difficulty absorbing grain proteins such as gluten in wheat and avenin in oats. This can lead to an inflammatory response to your body raising stress and hence cortisol levels. Excessively high cortisol makes you insulin resistant. Grains certainly give me brain fog due to the fact that they are not broken down in the gut, they then enter the intestines and ferment.. I'm sure you know all this.

I used potato because it's just starch. I don't have IBS so I absorb them well and they are relatively safe despite the fact that they are contain dual sugar molecules. No problem.

YOU ARE RIGHT IN WHAT YOU SAY... starch may hurt some but not others... but WHY? I think it could be because of adrenal activity. Eg. A person suffers from adrenal fatigue, they are constantly tired without a boost of high GL carbs. That person heads High GL carbs and their body is less stressed because it is doing everything it has to do and is not trying to draw more energy it doesn't have. If that person doesn't receive them it stresses the body, raises cortisol and the insulin resistant affects ensue. Could it be that the level of adrenal stress in a person governs what type of carbs (high or low GL) they should eat to forge ahead? If they don't get them then their body goes into a state of stress.. You are knowledgeable, I can see that, what affect does stress have on the body in terms of weight.

I had this from a young age, before my teens. My father died young and had shaky hands as far back as I can remember. He felt stress led to this. But I now think that his condition (stressed) and his life stressors, lead to this. I was developing the same body type as him until I upped my higher (Glycemic Load----- GL) carb intake with every meal. Could that be the key to weight control for a stressed body type?

Science doesn't understand why our bodies don't react like cars with fuel tanks and gauges, so I'm not sure why you think strangers on the internet do. Probably because there are so many "bro-science" web sites where they're quite cock-sure (so to speak) they've got all the answers and they post long, incomprehensible explanations that don't really explain anything and are probably wrong entirely.

Well, sometimes normal people miss the obvious. That's the only reason I ask.
'teaser' if you are still reading this.. the person above is a 'troll'. Not me.

My question is relatively straight forward. That's if 'Nancy' you bothered to read my post. There are people out there who didn't study medicine, sports science or any other science, who know allot more about this kind of thing than the so-called experts.

If I believed a website was the answer (you know,,, the cock-sure ones), then I would have googled my question.

Well, if Nancy's a troll, she's under her home bridge.
All hail the Dark Troll Queen.