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  #46   ^
Old Fri, Mar-06-15, 10:09
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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I'd do it too, Leemack. The research helps you deal with it!
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  #47   ^
Old Fri, Mar-06-15, 14:18
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leemack
This discussion is very interesting to me and very useful as I'm currently going through a cancer scare. I am hopeful that it will remain only a scare and that the tumour will prove benign.


Oh, so do I!
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  #48   ^
Old Fri, Mar-06-15, 15:05
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GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy LC
Someone linked a video to a researcher exploring a ketogenic diet and cancer in mice. The results, when combined with radiation, were spectacular. She didn't understand why, but the radiation worked better.

Also, she speculated that ketogenic diet may help protect the brain during chemo.

That would be Adrienne Scheck, and the link to her talk is in Post 138 of this thread.
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  #49   ^
Old Fri, Mar-06-15, 15:44
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GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
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Plan: Very LC, Higher Protein
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
Another controversial lecture on Cancer given in Capetown, adding it to this thread as well, this doctor's views similar to Seyfried, and as a Cancer survivor, the same as mine.

http://www.nofructose.com/2015/02/2...ime-to-rethink/

Very interesting talk given by Dr. Gary Fettke. One of his quotes is particularly interesting speaking about how society found itself in the processed food and sugar for diet mess:

Quote:
There is some association evidence. Look at what the food industry has given us in the last 50 years. But also we as consumers have demanded of the food industry: we’ve demanded convenience food that is transportable, has a long shelf life, tastes sweet and is cheap. We are just as much to blame as the industry.

While many blame the medical community, government, and food manufacturers, this is the first I've seen of assigning blame to consumers. My feeling is that when these recommendations of poor nutritional health started in the late 50s/ early 60s, the medical community had the ultimate authority in society in those days. Very few people questioned their doctors or medical experts. It was the culture of the times. As we moved into the 70s, dietary advice from the government was ratcheted up with McGovern issuing his dietary goals based on Pritikin and buoyed by heavy lobbying from the food industry. It became a perfect storm, and many consumers willingly followed this advice from the "experts."

My take is that in the last 5 years, we are finally getting substantiated information that enables us to challenge these guidelines with authority. I know it's a minor point in Fettke's otherwise excellent talk, but there was not much information to go by in the 80s and 90s to enable people to change their dietary habits. It wasn't until Atkins published his first book, which garnered much controversy, that some started thinking about nutrition differently since Keys initially delivered his forceful and dangerously flawed message. Particularly interesting is the recent news of the financial troubles of Kellogg, a bastion of the sweet cereal industry for many years. One would like to think that nutritional common sense has played a role in this trend.

Side note: I'm finding these talks at the LCHF Summit in Capetown fascinating and hope that we can get video versions of this conference soon. Thanks for posting, Janet!
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  #50   ^
Old Fri, Mar-06-15, 15:50
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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I wouldn't put all the blame on consumers. They were acting on the information they were given: Carbs good, sugar harmless, fat and cholesterol are deadly. Still are in fact. The only way to reverse this message is to do like they did with smoking: lots of PSAs.
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  #51   ^
Old Fri, Mar-06-15, 16:28
FatFreeMe FatFreeMe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JLx
As some one who has survived not just a cancer scare but a cancer certainty, (endometrial, Stage III) I object to anyone saying what someone else "should" have done.

I hope to unholy hell that if I subsequently die from recurrent cancer, people here aren't talking about me later: "Wasn't she the one who talked about eating fruit, even bananas? What an idiot. She should have been zero carb."

While meanwhile, in another community, perhaps they'd be saying, "Did she ever go to church? She should have been more positive and praying more''.

Or how about, "She was too fat most of her life. Why didn't she just eat less and move more"?


I've only read this far down, but THANK YOU JLx!
1. Ive had a complete hysterectomy on my doctors' advice. Best thing I ever did.
2. I was taken completely off-guard with a diagnosis of stage 4 Colon Cancer Feb 2013. There was no time to NOT take my doctors' advice and see if a VLC diet would help! I'm doing fine now, just nicely now getting back to work, and re-gaining my life!

I'm not sure I'll finish reading the next 3 or 4 pages.
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  #52   ^
Old Fri, Mar-06-15, 18:51
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JLx JLx is offline
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Plan: High protein, lower fat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FatFreeMe
I've only read this far down, but THANK YOU JLx!
1. Ive had a complete hysterectomy on my doctors' advice. Best thing I ever did.
2. I was taken completely off-guard with a diagnosis of stage 4 Colon Cancer Feb 2013. There was no time to NOT take my doctors' advice and see if a VLC diet would help! I'm doing fine now, just nicely now getting back to work, and re-gaining my life!

I'm not sure I'll finish reading the next 3 or 4 pages.


Well, to be fair, I was reacting to the title of the board. The ensuing discussion is not to be feared.

I think most of us here, since we're already low carbing in some fashion, would continue to do so while undergoing treatment. I think there's enough evidence for it in terms of treating cancer to feel some degree of confidence that there would be no reason not to.

Whether it's appropriate for people who have no familiarity with low carb, however, is another story, imo. It's a daunting task to overhaul your diet, it requires motivation and belief, for one thing, which means there needs to be more and better evidence that oncologists can point to to justify the recommendation. I think we're a ways from that. Then there's the emotional state of people having to deal with the cancer reality, as you know. Two weeks of "low carb flu" on top of everything else? A hard sell, I suspect.

I was following Bernstein and trying very hard to eat salads which I have never liked, when I was diagnosed with cancer. As I was gagging on a salad one day, I thought if these are my last few weeks or months to live, I'm not going to do it gagging on my food! I loosened my lc rules a bit and felt better for it. Telling people they need to give up all or most of their usual comfort foods when they are feeling most in need of comfort, would be daunting.

When I had chemo, I was there for 6 hours and the first time I didn't bring anything to eat. "There's food in the breakroom", I was told. Well, not exactly "food". There were cookies, cake, doughnuts and grapejuice in the fridge! Ridiculous. I brought cheese sticks and low carb muffins after that. And I was the only one who kept awake.

I believe I saw something recently about having people fasting during chemotherapy. A step in the right direction.

Last edited by JLx : Fri, Mar-06-15 at 18:52. Reason: typo
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  #53   ^
Old Fri, Mar-06-15, 20:02
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Turtle2003 Turtle2003 is offline
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Plan: Atkins, Newcastle
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Quote:
Whether it's appropriate for people who have no familiarity with low carb, however, is another story, imo. It's a daunting task to overhaul your diet, it requires motivation and belief, for one thing, which means there needs to be more and better evidence that oncologists can point to to justify the recommendation. I think we're a ways from that. Then there's the emotional state of people having to deal with the cancer reality, as you know. Two weeks of "low carb flu" on top of everything else? A hard sell, I suspect.


I think that's an excellent point JLx. I recall being annoyed with a blogger a few years ago who criticized some cancer patients for failing to stick with an experimental low carb diet being tested in Europe. He mocked them for wanting their sugar fix even if it meant their lives, but the truth was that these patients were people who had already been through surgery, chemo, and radiation, and were at the end of the line for conventional treatment.

They had been through a lot and were now being asked to go on a severe keto diet on top of everything else, a diet that eliminated every comfort food they knew of at a desperate time in their lives. A diet that conventional wisdom told them was not healthy. I'm not at all surprised that few managed to stick with it.
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  #54   ^
Old Fri, Mar-06-15, 21:21
leemack's Avatar
leemack leemack is offline
NEVER GIVING UP!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy LC
I'd do it too, Leemack. The research helps you deal with it!


Exactly

Which is why I have difficulty comprehending someone promoting a fringe idea above conventional treatment without doing the research to ensure it's at least scientifically viable, and just because they're really wedded to their particular theory. I'm enthusiastic about the benefits of low carb and ketosis, and would have no problem recommending it for health and reducing cancer related inflammation, but wouldn't dream of crusading about it being a cure that could rival current conventional treatment without far more research.
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  #55   ^
Old Sat, Mar-07-15, 06:52
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JLx
Well, to be fair, I was reacting to the title of the board. The ensuing discussion is not to be feared.


I really appreciate that. As the OP, I meant to contrast ketogenic with the "health" diet this unfortunate lady was famously on, but -- I realize now-- people coming by didn't necessarily understand that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leemack
Which is why I have difficulty comprehending someone promoting a fringe idea above conventional treatment without doing the research to ensure it's at least scientifically viable, and just because they're really wedded to their particular theory.


I am continually astonished that people believe things simply because they want to believe them

And as someone (possibly) pulling out of a different kind of health spiral myself, I thought I'd share my own thoughts on Diet and Serious Illness, because I feel this is another thing that really is different on Low Carb.
  • Low carb does not make us bullet-proof.

    When, after a lifetime of struggle, low carb eating transformed me in body, mind, and mood, it was like finding The Grail. But while dodging the most common health issues of our time is a fantastic accomplishment, there's still plenty of others lying in wait in the tall grass. In my case (the curious can start on page 7 of my journal) I had laid the foundation for my illness in my tumultuous teens, and in the decades since, it had gotten worse because I didn't know.

    Just as low carb had to transform the way I ate because What Society Does is so utterly wrong for me, I had to revamp the rest of my life (stress-handling, supplements, especially SLEEP) because I had been taking sleep for granted, and it finally caught up with me.
    ---
  • Low carb can change the symptoms we present.

    I am utterly convinced that one of the reasons I got so little help from conventional medicine (and so my skepticism is now bone deep and from my own experience) is that my Profile was not typical. I had avoided some of the most telling symptoms because low carbing had helped me avoid the serious issues that made them manifest. I was a medical anomaly. And so doctors were going to find me not fitting the patterns they were used to.

    This is something every low carber needs to be aware of. We're not going to test "right" on the Glucose Tolerance Test, our cholesterol numbers are less likely to be interpreted correctly, we might react differently to the medicines we take (and we often need less, because we are treating the cause with our diets,) and our enzyme profile has shifted from "normal" -- all because of the way we eat. Which is still kind of rare, and certainly not mainstream.
    ---
  • Low carb is always better than the alternative.

    I recognize that some people do well with things like safe starch, Reward Meals, and higher carb Paleo plans, but no one should devolve to sugar and high fructose corn syrup, wheat, starchy vegetables, or processed foods. I've found that the longer people have been away from them, the worse they make us feel when we do eat them, so we should be proud of the beneficial changes we've made to our diets, and not be swayed by badly informed authorities. Illness can be a time when well-intentioned advice of "It's that crazy way you eat!" will get thrown around, and it's not true.

    The problem is that we weren't fed this way from birth, and neither were our parents. And since we were not, we still have to contend with possible problems which I say can come from the way we USED to eat.
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  #56   ^
Old Sat, Mar-07-15, 08:33
leemack's Avatar
leemack leemack is offline
NEVER GIVING UP!
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Plan: no sugar/grains LCHF IF
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WereBear


I am continually astonished that people believe things simply because they want to believe them



My husband calls it the disorder of 'feeling'. They'll ignore any science because they 'feel' that what they believe should be right:


Vegans 'feeling' veganism should be healthy.
Dieticians 'feeling' CICO should be right.
The woman at work 'feeling' that fat goes directly to clog arteries.

There are loads of other non nutrition examples. People will go out of their way to ignore facts and hold on to their 'feeling' of what must be right.
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  #57   ^
Old Sun, Mar-08-15, 04:07
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
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Dr Colin Champ has been on a tear lately, after a time of few new posts, he has many in 2015 on new studies about Cancer and diet.
They are all interesting, his conclusion to his most recent article applies to this thread.
http://www.cavemandoctor.com/2015/0...ving-cancer-b-c

Quote:
In Conclusion:
Can we say with 100% certainty that stabilizing your blood sugar during the treatment of cancer can help you to live longer or beat it? Absolutely not.
Can we say with 100% certainty that avoiding sugar and carbohydrates during the treatment of cancer can help you to live longer and beat the cancer? Absolutely not.
Can we say that patients with higher blood glucose levels during the treatment of brain tumors appear to live significantly shorter? Absolutely.
So does A = B = C? Maybe. Maybe not.
Do we want to chance it? I have an easy answer to that, but it seems like most people do not agree. I think it at least deserves to be answered in a study — but I’m not holding my breath.

Last edited by JEY100 : Sun, Mar-08-15 at 05:25.
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  #58   ^
Old Sun, Mar-08-15, 05:59
cotonpal's Avatar
cotonpal cotonpal is online now
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In order to make good choices we need good information. Let us hope that the research on the relationship between a ketogenic diet and cancer continues. There are a lot of credible sources who believe it has promise.
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  #59   ^
Old Sun, Mar-08-15, 07:56
JLeigh JLeigh is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WereBear
When we read an article like this:

Quote:
Thirteen glasses of fresh, raw carrot/apple and green-leaf juices prepared hourly from fresh, organic fruits and vegetables.

Three full plant-based meals, freshly prepared from organically grown fruits, vegetables and whole grains. A typical meal will include salad, cooked vegetables, baked potatoes, Hippocrates soup and juice.

Fresh fruit and vegetables available at all hours for snacking, in addition to the regular diet.

The Gerson protocol, cancer, and the death of Jess Ainscough, a.k.a. “The Wellness Warrior”


This hits close to home for me because my father has cancer. Most of my family follow low-carb for the most part, except that they cannot understand that they are eating too much fruit. When my dad was diagnosed, my sister sprang into action. She wanted him to follow the protocols of the likes of Heal Marketplace and Dr. Schulze. While I do appreciate many of the products of both companies (Superfood is something I consume daily), the bottom line is that they are vegan. Copious amounts of that carrot/apple juice were given to my dad. When, to my horror, I realized that he was drinking glass after glass of what amounts to liquid sugar, I almost had a complete meltdown. SUGAR FEEDS CANCER CELLS. Period. I don't care what form of sugar you are using --fruit, brown, white, whatever. My family cannot wrap their minds around the fact that sugar is sugar. Yes, fruit can contain other nutrients, but it also still contains sugar. I was unsuccessful in changing their minds, so I backed off. There is nothing at all I can do, and I don't plan to hassle my dad about his eating habits in his final months.
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  #60   ^
Old Sun, Mar-08-15, 09:26
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
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Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JLeigh
I was unsuccessful in changing their minds, so I backed off. There is nothing at all I can do, and I don't plan to hassle my dad about his eating habits in his final months.


I'm so sorry to hear, and I totally understand the frustration. Though in my case it was diabetes.

For ten years I tried to get my father to adopt Dr. Bernstein's approach, and for ten years I watched his body and mind deteriorate with relentless blood sugar complications. His second wife, my stepmother, was deadset against low carb. When I started Atkins, she was starting Weight Watchers, and told me to my face that I would kill myself eating this way.

So here we are, a dozen years later. I've kept almost all the weight off and my biomarkers like blood sugar and blood pressure are excellent. My dad passed away after years of tortuous dementia that ruined their final years together, both emotionally and financially. She couldn't stick to WW, put all the weight back on and then some, and is in continual pain from what I think are statin side-effects, but she won't hear of it because "I believe statins will keep me from having a heart attack."

I can't even do an I-told-you-so because it's all too gut-wrenchingly sad.

So enjoy your dad. I put things aside as probably too late anyway (my dad had diabetes since the 1960's, back when sugar control boiled down to "don't die".) Remember, always, that you did the very best you could.

Quote:
“My actions are my only true belongings. I cannot escape the consequences of my actions. My actions are the ground on which I stand.”


― Thích Nhất Hạnh

Last edited by WereBear : Sun, Mar-08-15 at 09:34.
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