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  #16   ^
Old Fri, May-24-02, 12:50
Mila Mila is offline
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Posts: 338
 
Plan: Fat Flush Plan (Zone)
Stats: 249/133/115
BF:
Progress: 87%
Location: Toronto
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Wa'il, if 0.6g of protein per pound of LBM sends one in a starvation mode, then even the zone becomes a ketogenic diet for them. the zone recommends anywhere from 0.6 to 1.25g of protein per pound of LBM, depending on level of activity and other metabolic demands. My LBM is about 90lbs, my protein intake is about 75g per day or higher(0.8-1g of protein per pound of LBM). I am not in ketosis, therefore I conclude that my sometimes 900cal per day zone diet is not a starvation diet and not a ketogenic one.

I am not sure why exactly you were in ketosis... something might have brought your blood sugar levels too low for your body to secret ketones as fuel for the brain. do you have reason to think that you have been producing ketone bodies as part of hormonal/metabolic imbalances, not only because 0.6g of protein were too few for you and sent you into starvation mode?

the solution for ketosis on the zone, if one wants to avoid it, is not just upping carbs, for many people are sensitive to carbs and stay on the zone precisely for diabetes control, etc. but
1) finding your own zone, as you've seen from the graph, the zone is wide, and 40/30/30 is only the point of entrance, but not everyone's sweet spot
2) gradually increasing total caloric intake (up to 10 times total body weight in calories) while monitoring bodyfat loss and supplementing with up to 5g of long-chain omega-3 fatty acids from various sources daily, exact amount of supplementation depends on the person's TG/HDL ratio. usually the problem resolves itself within one month and one can return to the lower caloric and omega-3's intake for enhanced bodyfat loss.

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  #17   ^
Old Fri, May-24-02, 13:25
tamarian's Avatar
tamarian tamarian is offline
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Posts: 19,512
 
Plan: Atkins/PP/BFL
Stats: 400/223/200 Male 5 ft 11
BF:37%/17%/12%
Progress: 89%
Location: Ottawa, ON
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mila
the zone recommends anywhere from 0.6 to 1.25g of protein per pound of LBM, depending on level of activity and other metabolic demands.


Hmmm. In "Enter the Zone", Dr. Sears says from 0.6 gram to a maximum of 1 gram, and this is only for weight-lifters, training twice a day, 5 days a week.

Quote:
My LBM is about 90lbs, my protein intake is about 75g per day or higher(0.8-1g of protein per pound of LBM). I am not in ketosis,


Maybe not in "visible" ketosis, where there's heavy excess of ketones.

Quote:
I am not sure why exactly you were in ketosis... something might have brought your blood sugar levels too low for your body to secret ketones as fuel for the brain. do you have reason to think that you have been producing ketone bodies as part of hormonal/metabolic imbalances, not only because 0.6g of protein were too few for you and sent you into starvation mode?


See, this is why I whished Dr. Sears gave a scientific reference to his ketosis claims, so his readers can be sure if ketones really are unhealthy, not just because his marketing department said so.

Yes, starvation does induce ketosis, and that's a healthy body function (an irony lost on Dr. Sears). But it's quite illogical to assume that ketosis without starvation is bad?

If your body has a defense mechanism, such as ketosis, to fight against starvation by burning it's fat for energy, does that mean it's unhealthy to use it to burn excess fat? Hello!

Quote:
2) gradually increasing total caloric intake
(up to 10 times total body weight in calories) while monitoring bodyfat loss and supplementing with up to 5g of long-chain omega-3 fatty acids from various sources daily, exact amount of supplementation depends on the person's TG/HDL ratio. [/B]


You know, this is definitly starting to sound better than the book I have (Enter the Zone). Which book added that? I might check it out.

Wa'il
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  #18   ^
Old Fri, May-24-02, 14:59
tamarian's Avatar
tamarian tamarian is offline
Forum Founder
Posts: 19,512
 
Plan: Atkins/PP/BFL
Stats: 400/223/200 Male 5 ft 11
BF:37%/17%/12%
Progress: 89%
Location: Ottawa, ON
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O.k., I took a close look on these studies, supposedly referring to ketones as unhealthy. Let's take a close look, shall we?

Quote:
Originally posted by Mila
Ok, these authors state that ketosis is body?s response to starvation. Should we widen up our definition of ?starvation diets?, to include high calorie low carb intake diets, not only low calorie intake, into that category? This article is excellent in its overview of the goodness of ketosis.

Ketone bodies, potential therapeutic uses.

Veech RL, Chance B, Kashiwaya Y, Lardy HA, Cahill GF Jr.

Unit on Metabolic Control, LMMB/NIAAA, Rockville, Maryland, USA.


They did not imply it's the only function of ketosis (i.e. no reference to ketosis=starvation) Here's part of that quote:

Ketosis, meaning elevation of D-beta-hydroxybutyrate (R-3hydroxybutyrate) and acetoacetate, has been central to starving man's survival by providing nonglucose substrate to his evolutionarily hypertrophied brain, sparing muscle from destruction for glucose synthesis.

Yes, ketones are central to surviving starvation. That should be a healthy function, I think. But in no way did they conclude, or imply, that it's only under starvation that you become in ketosis.

Interestingly, the study is regarding potential therapeutic uses of ketones. I'd say this is a blow to anyone who claims ketone bodies are "abnormal" or "unhealthy".

Quote:
This article overviews bruising side effect of the ketogenic diets. I experienced it myself.

Bruising and the ketogenic diet: evidence for diet-induced changes in platelet function.

Berry-Kravis E, Booth G, Taylor A, Valentino LA.

Department of Pediatrics, RUSH-Presbyterian-St Luke's Medical Center, Chicago, IL 60612, USA. eberrykr~rush.edu


If you read the contents of that paper, it is is specifically for epeleptic children.

We're talking about very high-fat, very low-carb plans designed for children with epelepsy, not as a treatment for excess fat. So the claim is not that it's due to ketosis, it's a specific scenario, where many side effects take place for a pre-existing illness.

Fortunately, this has proved as the most effective treatment for epeleptic children. for Ketosis.

Quote:
I post this abstract here only because I mentioned this article in another post of mine on this board, didn?t want to leave that info unreferenced.

Acute pancreatitis causing death in a child on the ketogenic diet.

Stewart WA, Gordon K, Camfield P.

Department of Pediatrics, Dalhousie University, IWK Health Centre, Halifax, Nova Scotia. wastewar~is.dal.ca


Again, with a close look, you'll see the discussion is about:
A 9-year-old girl had a seizure disorder with associated developmental delay owing to glucose transport protein deficiency.

Nothing here refutes that Ketosis is a normal body funtion to lose excess fat. It's silly to expect something to cure everything, otherwise it's unhealthy?

If a cancer patient takes multi-vitamins and die, should multi-vitamins be declared unhealthy?

Quote:
Authors of this article do not seem to think that higher carbohydrates diets are bad as long as carbs come from the low glycemic sources

Good, me neither
Quote:
Well, athletes, you are safe with your higher protein consumption, according to this study.

Wonderful news.
Quote:
This article supports high protein intake as long as alkali buffers are included in one?s diet.

Sounds good to me..
Quote:
This article may explain why those who are on a ketogenic diet have trouble maintaining the state of ketosis, it?s the butter, folks! Up your omega-3?s intake!


Read you books folks, almost all LC authors recommend EFA's. Some of us sip it up straight! We don't need experiments on rats with seizures to tell us that

Wa'il
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  #19   ^
Old Fri, May-24-02, 17:29
Bloom Bloom is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,181
 
Plan: Dukan
Stats: 229/185/154 Female 168cm
BF:
Progress: 59%
Location: New Zealand
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Woah is me where has this topic gone.

Everyone seems to have there knickers in a twist for some reason

Maybe 'you' have not heard of Anne Louise Gittlemen M.S.,C.N.S. That doesnt make her any the less worthwhile and she sure aint no fad!

She wrote her first book 'Beyond Pritkin' in 1988 after being the chief nutrionist at the pritkin institute and finding that infact people need more fat (the right fats) in there diet than the Pritkin way provided. This book introduced the first of todays FFP and it has been improved and refined from there.

Im not about to type out the whole story for you but here are some words about the FFP that may gain your repect.

"Anne Louise Gittleman once again leads the crusade for better nutrition. She exposes the pervasive myths that all fats are bad and that unlimited carbohydrates are good. Sensible and thorough, her Fat Flush Plan is a terrific primer for anyone wanting to lose weight and regain vitality. We recommend it enthusiastically!"
-Michael R. Eades, MD & Mary Dan Eades, M.D.
authors of Protein Power

"What a great program! Whether your starting a diet with a bang or trying to budge the scales after a binge or just tuning your body and hoping to lose some stubborn inches , this is a great , safe low carb way to do it."
-Fran Mc Cullough,
author odf The Low-Carb Cookbook

"In my Fit Camps, we work on lifestyle changes involving both nutrion and exercise. The Fat Flush Plan (phase 1) has inspired my campers to initiate the dietary changes necessary for weight loss and better health."
-Joanie greggains author of Fit Happens

"Weight loss programs are often long on claims and short on results. Ann Louise gittleman's Fat Flaush Plan offers great information and great strategies for weight management. A healthy, smart, safe, effective weight-loss program. What could be
better?".
Tori Hudson, N.D.
Professor, National College of Naturopathic Medicine and Author of Womens Encylopedia of natural medicine

"If you care about your life and state of health, this book will be a valuable resourse for you".
-Bernie Siegel, M.D.
Author of Love, Medicine & Miracles

"The fat Fush is the healthiest and safest way i know to drop weight quickly. Ann louise Gittleman has once again used her enourmous talents and encyclopedic knowledge of nutrition and health to come up with a winning formula. Ann Louise has been one of the great influences on my professional life and one of the first people I turn to when i want a 'second opinion.'"
-Jonny Bowden, M.A.,C.N.,C.N. S.
author of Shape Up, the eight week program to transform your body, health and your life.
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  #20   ^
Old Fri, May-24-02, 17:35
tamarian's Avatar
tamarian tamarian is offline
Forum Founder
Posts: 19,512
 
Plan: Atkins/PP/BFL
Stats: 400/223/200 Male 5 ft 11
BF:37%/17%/12%
Progress: 89%
Location: Ottawa, ON
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Bloom
Maybe 'you' have not heard of Anne Louise Gittlemen M.S.,C.N.S. That doesnt make her any the less worthwhile and she sure aint no fad!


Actually, I have a lot of respect for her, and got her latest book.

You can see from my first reply in this thread, I'm not attacking her plan, nor the Zone.

I'm addressing the attack against Ketogenic diets. All low-carb plans work

The problem is when we beleive the fallacies/attacks used for promotion, and confuse them with science. If FFP work, and the Zone works (I think they both do), that doesn't mean other LC plans don't.

Wa'il
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  #21   ^
Old Fri, May-24-02, 17:51
Bloom Bloom is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,181
 
Plan: Dukan
Stats: 229/185/154 Female 168cm
BF:
Progress: 59%
Location: New Zealand
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Quote:
Actually, I have a lot of respect for her, and got her latest book.

Alright then

Thing is why did the argument for/against Ketogenic diets even come into the equation .
I havnt finished the book yet but still havnt come across any mention of ketosis? and its not listed in the index.

The way mouth felt yesterday even with all the water I was drinking was no different to how it was on induction. I dont even test for ketones myself have never bought the sticks and havnt intended to so far.
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  #22   ^
Old Fri, May-24-02, 17:58
tamarian's Avatar
tamarian tamarian is offline
Forum Founder
Posts: 19,512
 
Plan: Atkins/PP/BFL
Stats: 400/223/200 Male 5 ft 11
BF:37%/17%/12%
Progress: 89%
Location: Ottawa, ON
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Bloom

Thing is why did the argument for/against Ketogenic diets even come into the equation .
I havnt finished the book yet but still havnt come across any mention of ketosis? and its not listed in the index.


Actually she didn't (very wise of her ) The claims of dangers of ketosis is from the Zone, and is the basis of Mila's arguments here that ketosis = starvation = unhealthy. This is a common mistake confusing ketosis with 3 different kinds ketoacidosis.

I hope I'm not offending anyone, I'm sincerely hoping for an open-minded debate, based on facts and science, not emotion and half-facts.

Wa'il
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  #23   ^
Old Fri, May-24-02, 18:14
Bloom Bloom is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,181
 
Plan: Dukan
Stats: 229/185/154 Female 168cm
BF:
Progress: 59%
Location: New Zealand
Default

Jolly good then, just so long as all this doesnt cloud anyones judgement of FFP.
Unfortunate thread title maybe?

Jenny
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  #24   ^
Old Fri, May-24-02, 18:20
tamarian's Avatar
tamarian tamarian is offline
Forum Founder
Posts: 19,512
 
Plan: Atkins/PP/BFL
Stats: 400/223/200 Male 5 ft 11
BF:37%/17%/12%
Progress: 89%
Location: Ottawa, ON
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bloom

Unfortunate thread title maybe?


Good point. Maybe now it's better

Wa'il
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  #25   ^
Old Fri, May-24-02, 18:24
Bloom Bloom is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,181
 
Plan: Dukan
Stats: 229/185/154 Female 168cm
BF:
Progress: 59%
Location: New Zealand
Default

Man you are quick
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  #26   ^
Old Sat, May-25-02, 03:54
Mila Mila is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 338
 
Plan: Fat Flush Plan (Zone)
Stats: 249/133/115
BF:
Progress: 87%
Location: Toronto
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Hello Wa'il,

answering your question "which book added that?"...

the latest books on zone strategies for enhanced bodyfat loss and overall health are (besides The Fat Flush Plan by Ann Louise Gittleman)

The Omega Rx Zone (2002) by Barry Sears, Ph.D.

Fat Wars (2002) by Brad J. King, M.S., M.F.S.

The Ultimate Fat Burning Diet Primer (1999) by Paul Crane

for variants of the zone eating, (various proportions of carbs to protein, 30/50, 50/30, 40/40, etc. all moderate fat, of course) with quizzes which will help one determine their own 'zone' see

Hollywood's Healthiest Diets (1999) by Tony Perrone, Ph.D.

best wishes
Mila
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  #27   ^
Old Sat, May-25-02, 09:24
tamarian's Avatar
tamarian tamarian is offline
Forum Founder
Posts: 19,512
 
Plan: Atkins/PP/BFL
Stats: 400/223/200 Male 5 ft 11
BF:37%/17%/12%
Progress: 89%
Location: Ottawa, ON
Default

I take it that my earlier points re: ketosis vs. Ketoacidosis have made sense, and clarified things a bit. But I'll summarize for the benefit of those not familiar with these terms.

1. Ketones: Ketones are a byproduct of fat metabolism (the breaking down of fat into energy).

If you lose 1 lb of fat, you will produce ketones. This will happen if you follow any diet, Atkins, the Zone, Slim Fat or Jenny Craig.

You don't have to be on a low-carb diet to get them!

Quote:
The whole process of muscle protein catabolism and liver gluconeogenesis is regulated principally by glucocorticosteroids and glucagon and a relative lack of insulin. Early in fasting glycogen reserves are depleted, and protein (mainly from muscle) becomes the major source of carbon for glucose production. Glucose is required in substantial amounts by blood cells and the central nervous system on a daily basis. There is also an initiation of ketone body production by the liver to provide a more water soluble form of fat-derived fuel.
Nutritional Biochemistry and Metabolism: with clinical applications", Maria C. Linder

More reading here: http://www.lowcarbretreat.com/ketosis.html


2. Ketosis: Ketosis is the presence of excess ketones in the body. It's is the cotinious state of fat metabolism. A healthy mechanism that "kicks-in" when there is not enough dietary sugar.

Quote:
"A very similar adaption of protein and energy metabolism occurs in persons consuming diets very low in carbohydrates, where there is little or no glycogen reserve. However, in this instance, dietary protein largely or fully substitutes for muscle protein in gluconeogenesis.


2A Starvation-Ketosis: Lack of dietary sugar also occures under starvation, resulting in ketosis. (DUH!) This has been mentioned earlier (quoted above) in the "Ketone bodies, potential therapeutic uses." study

3. Ketoacidosis: The polar opposite to Ketosis, excess of ketones, even with excess dietary sugar.

3A Diabetic Ketoacidosis (DKA): Diabetic ketoacidosis (DKA) is a state of absolute or relative insulin deficiency aggravated by ensuing hyperglycemia, dehydration, and acidosis-producing derangements in intermediary metabolism. The most common causes are underlying infection, disruption of insulin treatment, and new onset of diabetes. DKA typically is characterized by hyperglycemia over 300 mg/dL, low bicarbonate (<15 mEq/L), and acidosis (pH <7.30) with ketonemia and ketonuria.
http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic135.htm

3B. Alcoholic Ketoacidosis (AKA): Alcoholic ketoacidosis (AKA) is an uncommon and frequently missed condition. Many of the signs and symptoms of AKA are present with other conditions associated with alcohol abuse. AKA often is overlooked as the cause of the patient's presenting complaints. AKA most commonly occurs when an alcoholic has been on a binge and abruptly ceases drinking.
http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic21.htm

.
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  #28   ^
Old Sat, May-25-02, 11:12
Mila Mila is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 338
 
Plan: Fat Flush Plan (Zone)
Stats: 249/133/115
BF:
Progress: 87%
Location: Toronto
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excellent post, Wa'il!!! my physiology textbook doesn't explain it as good!

this 'ketone' post of yours is a keeper! a mighty excellent explanation... you are the best

Mila

P.S. could you explain me how to post a link from another board to this specific post of yours, or any other post on this board? I have no idea, if it has been explained in the technical section, please direct me there.
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  #29   ^
Old Sat, May-25-02, 11:32
tamarian's Avatar
tamarian tamarian is offline
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Posts: 19,512
 
Plan: Atkins/PP/BFL
Stats: 400/223/200 Male 5 ft 11
BF:37%/17%/12%
Progress: 89%
Location: Ottawa, ON
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Glad you liked it!

Quote:
my physiology textbook doesn't explain it as good!


It's probably because your text book was written by a professional

The post reflects my understanding and reading on the issue, and I'm certainly no expert. Any additional elaboration, correction or education on this issue will always be appreciated and welcome.

Quote:
P.S. could you explain me how to post a link from another board to this specific post of yours, or any other post on this board? I have no idea, if it has been explained in the technical section, please direct me there.

Here's the link to the "ketone" post:

http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthre...3689#post383689

You can obtain the link to any specific post by pointing your mouse to the symbol next to the post's date, and righ-click, selecting "copy shortcut" or "copy link address" depending on your browser.

Wa'il
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