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  #16   ^
Old Thu, Sep-27-12, 04:45
gonwtwindo's Avatar
gonwtwindo gonwtwindo is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,671
 
Plan: General Low Carb
Stats: 164/162.6/151 Female 5'3"
BF:Sure is
Progress: 11%
Location: SoCal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy LC

Don't sweat the cholesterol and I personally wouldn't take statins for ANY amount of money unless I was a man over 56 who had had a heart attack.


Interesting, that particular number. My father had his first heart attack at 56. It was sudden and fatal. Meanwhile, his sister, whose cholesterol was also in the 300s, started taking stains when they came out in the late 80's and is still up walking around at 87. So the age you mentioned is a good ballpark, but why wait until after having a heart attack? Your first one can be fatal.
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  #17   ^
Old Thu, Sep-27-12, 07:31
JLx's Avatar
JLx JLx is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 3,199
 
Plan: High protein, lower fat
Stats: 000/000/145 Female 66
BF:276, 255 hi wts
Progress: 0%
Location: Michigan U.P., USA
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Here's a link from a poster on another board that I found very helpful that discusses ratios and an alternative formula for LDL that takes into account the lower triglycerides characteristic of LC diets. :

http://www.lowcarbfriends.com/bbs/c...rol-primer.html
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  #18   ^
Old Thu, Sep-27-12, 09:06
RobLL RobLL is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,648
 
Plan: generalized low carb
Stats: 205/180/185 Male 67
BF:31%/14?%/12%
Progress: 125%
Location: Pacific Northwest
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Studies show a small benefit for men under 60 who have heart problems. Outside of that demographic statins have shown very little benefit. They may bend causes of death a little away from heart attacks and a little toward cancer. Some of us suspect that it may be the antioxident properties, and not the cholesterol lowering properties which is doing all of this.
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  #19   ^
Old Thu, Sep-27-12, 15:33
psowen psowen is offline
New Member
Posts: 19
 
Plan: Dr. Berstein
Stats: 330/206/200 Male 6ft 2 inches
BF:
Progress:
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When you say add fats to the diet instead of carbs back in for energy i.e. dietary fat instead of burning body fat as I have been doing these 7 months what do you mean...What is this fat your adding...teaspoonfulls of coconut oil and butter?...How much to add? What is the recommended daily intake of this saturated fat?
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  #20   ^
Old Thu, Sep-27-12, 16:04
JoreyTK's Avatar
JoreyTK JoreyTK is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 175
 
Plan: Ketogenic + IF
Stats: 240/194/175 Male 5'7"
BF:
Progress: 71%
Location: Edmonton, AB
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For low carb, cholesterol and related stuff check out this movie. it's got some good info in it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evcNPfZlrZs&feature=fvst
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  #21   ^
Old Thu, Sep-27-12, 20:31
juliaca201's Avatar
juliaca201 juliaca201 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 752
 
Plan: VLC, Paleo
Stats: 243/228.4/135 Female 5ft 2 inches
BF:way too much!!!
Progress: 14%
Location: Michigan
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yes, sometimes when I need to add I add coconut oil to coffee or eat it plain (sounds gross, but it's very light and good!)...I take a Tablespone and coat it in Saigon cinnamon....yum
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  #22   ^
Old Fri, Sep-28-12, 05:35
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
Posts: 13,446
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
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Finding your maintenance diet of carbs and fat calories is mostly trial and error based on your level of activity (may change during the year) height, gender and age. But the book has an example for a 5'10" "average activity" man which indicates 1800 Fat Calories out of 2800 total calories. Extra butter or olive oil on veg (big fan of roasting veggies with olive oil in the oven... easy, great flavor), almond or coconut butter (Artisana brand) right off the spoon are some of my favorite sources.

Here is the chart from Phinney & Volek which makes the need for fat in maintenance so clear...the book emphasizes this concept.




This chart is from Chapter 16, The A&S of Low Carb Living, titled: The Importance of Dietary Fat in Long-Term Maintenance

Last edited by JEY100 : Fri, Sep-28-12 at 06:07.
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  #23   ^
Old Fri, Sep-28-12, 07:07
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 14,684
 
Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
Stats: 220/130/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 129%
Location: USA
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If statins didn't have side effects, why not indeed?

But they do: very serious ones. Dr. Stuart Graveline, "Spacedoc," has been trying to warn people about the dangers of statins since his experience standing in his own backyard, having completely lost any memory of who he was or how he got there.

But he can't do it so much anymore... since his severe muscle myopathy developed into Lou Gehrig's disease.

Then there's my own experience; my husband's beloved aunt was dying from cancer... and was still taking Lipitor! We convinced her that it was kind of expensive and pointless now, and she agreed, and stopped them.

She regained the ability to walk and digest food; which had been blamed on the cancer and chemotherapy.

I am very afraid of them.
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  #24   ^
Old Fri, Sep-28-12, 09:53
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
Experimenter
Posts: 25,866
 
Plan: DDF
Stats: 202/185.4/179 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 72%
Location: San Diego, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gonwtwindo
Interesting, that particular number. My father had his first heart attack at 56. It was sudden and fatal. Meanwhile, his sister, whose cholesterol was also in the 300s, started taking stains when they came out in the late 80's and is still up walking around at 87. So the age you mentioned is a good ballpark, but why wait until after having a heart attack? Your first one can be fatal.

Doctors have to prescribe statins to 250 people before it saves one life. Do you really want to risk the harmful side-effects of diabetes, cancer, dementia, muscle damage, for a 1 in 250 chance it helps you?

Would it have helped your dad? There's no guarantee it would have. People who take statins also have heart attacks and strokes.

We're not carbon-copies of our parents. Each parent has 2 copies of a each gene and you get one of those two. Could be a good one, could be a bad one... or neutral. Anyway, if you end up with two genes associated with... oh, let's say apoE, your odds are bad. Maybe your dad was homozygous for apoE and your aunt wasn't.

BTW: Sorry you lost your dad at such an early age.

And, if you want to see what sort of genetics you have, I recommend 23andme.com It is VERY interesting!
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  #25   ^
Old Fri, Sep-28-12, 13:21
psowen psowen is offline
New Member
Posts: 19
 
Plan: Dr. Berstein
Stats: 330/206/200 Male 6ft 2 inches
BF:
Progress:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WereBear
If statins didn't have side effects, why not indeed?

But they do: very serious ones. Dr. Stuart Graveline, "Spacedoc," has been trying to warn people about the dangers of statins since his experience standing in his own backyard, having completely lost any memory of who he was or how he got there.

But he can't do it so much anymore... since his severe muscle myopathy developed into Lou Gehrig's disease.

Then there's my own experience; my husband's beloved aunt was dying from cancer... and was still taking Lipitor! We convinced her that it was kind of expensive and pointless now, and she agreed, and stopped them.

She regained the ability to walk and digest food; which had been blamed on the cancer and chemotherapy.

I am very afraid of them.



Ok you guys have convinced me to stop taking the statins my doc recommended me...and no I'm not telling the doctor...I'm supposed to get more blood work in 2 months to recheck my cholesterol...I hope my lipids have improved by then with my weight having leveled off for a while. Geez louis a 1 in 250 chance that it may help keep you from dying of a heart attack all while causing God only knows what other kinds of damage to the body...its a dangerous drug...I was reading the info that came with the Crestor and it mentions monitoring of the liver while on it for damage ect....that is some insane stuff right there...no thanks.
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  #26   ^
Old Fri, Sep-28-12, 13:36
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
Experimenter
Posts: 25,866
 
Plan: DDF
Stats: 202/185.4/179 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 72%
Location: San Diego, CA
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Here's an article you should read:

Does LDL-P Matter?

This guy has LDL-P of 3000. LDL-P roughly calculates into LDL-C (calculated, I think) by dividing it by 10. So he has an LDL of 300. He's a doctor, FYI.
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  #27   ^
Old Fri, Sep-28-12, 13:46
psowen psowen is offline
New Member
Posts: 19
 
Plan: Dr. Berstein
Stats: 330/206/200 Male 6ft 2 inches
BF:
Progress:
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I mean who wouldn't take them if you knew they 100 percent were gonna prevent a heart attack and that you'd live 20 more years by taking them but it seems as likely from what I've read up on them that they could cause liver damage and send you to a grave 20 years earlier.
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  #28   ^
Old Fri, Sep-28-12, 17:53
juliaca201's Avatar
juliaca201 juliaca201 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 752
 
Plan: VLC, Paleo
Stats: 243/228.4/135 Female 5ft 2 inches
BF:way too much!!!
Progress: 14%
Location: Michigan
Default

yes, dear...I agree with the above posters...you should check outCholesterol Lies - - $TATIN NATION Documentary & watch the actual documentary, if you can!
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  #29   ^
Old Sat, Sep-29-12, 09:23
Msilaine Msilaine is offline
New Member
Posts: 11
 
Plan: Ketogenic Mediterranean
Stats: 260/239/190 Female 67
BF:
Progress:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psowen
Ok you guys have convinced me to stop taking the statins my doc recommended me...and no I'm not telling the doctor...I'm supposed to get more blood work in 2 months to recheck my cholesterol...I hope my lipids have improved by then with my weight having leveled off for a while. Geez louis a 1 in 250 chance that it may help keep you from dying of a heart attack all while causing God only knows what other kinds of damage to the body...its a dangerous drug...I was reading the info that came with the Crestor and it mentions monitoring of the liver while on it for damage ect....that is some insane stuff right there...no thanks.

On June 29, 2012, I had an LDL particle count of 2115 by NMR.

On August 25, 2012, I had an LDL particle count of 1230 by NMR. Which, by the way, is still high. Should be below 1000, preferably much lower.

What did I do different? Cut carbs to less than 50 g per day. I am also relentless about avoiding wheat.

I have diabetes, am determined to stay off insulin and statins.
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  #30   ^
Old Sat, Sep-29-12, 09:47
psowen psowen is offline
New Member
Posts: 19
 
Plan: Dr. Berstein
Stats: 330/206/200 Male 6ft 2 inches
BF:
Progress:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Msilaine
On June 29, 2012, I had an LDL particle count of 2115 by NMR.

On August 25, 2012, I had an LDL particle count of 1230 by NMR. Which, by the way, is still high. Should be below 1000, preferably much lower.

What did I do different? Cut carbs to less than 50 g per day. I am also relentless about avoiding wheat.

I have diabetes, am determined to stay off insulin and statins.



Oh I definitley avoid wheat and already eat less than 50 g per day more like in between 30 to 40 a day...


Look at what I found below...

http://www.spacedoc.com/statins_per...de_effects.html

By Duane Graveline, MD, MPH

I was still in practice, over twenty years ago, when lovastatin, the first statin drug, became available for use by primary care physicians.
We learned to expect liver inflammation and occasional muscle aches and pains. With the dosages used at that time and with a relatively small number of patients on the early statins, the side effect issue impressed me as being acceptable.

This is no longer true. Today, with more potent drugs, millions of people taking them and at doses triple and quadruple those of the past, the side effect profile has radically changed. Now, cognitive damage, emotional and behavioral change, neuropathies and even neuro-degenerative damage are increasingly recognized as associated with statin drug use. But there is something even more perverse - the element of permanence of some of these consequences.

The pharmaceutical industry has been quick to add such conditions as neuropathy and amnesia to their long list of "disclaimers" in their drug reference information, but they may not have not foreseen the full scope of what is coming.
Yes, within the past six years, after my own cognitive reactions to statins in the prevailing climate of complete physician denial, drug companies have belatedly added cognitive damage but not one word about permanent cognitive damage. And the same for neuromuscular - yes, most of the drug companies now admit that peripheral neuropathy may be a consequence of statin use but have never mentioned it might be disabling, crippling or permanent.

On the basis of my repository of several thousand reports from statin "victims", the first evidence of permanence came from reports of cognitive problems associated with statin use. Michael Hope was one of the first to receive widespread media attention - a former CEO reduced to unemployable status due to persistent loss of short-term memory. Today, four years after the onset, Michael is still grossly impaired. He is one of many hundreds who have persistent cognitive deficits long after stopping their statin.

Next came reports of muscle aches and pains brought on by statin drugs that persisted and even worsened despite promptly stopping the statin. Two astronaut friends of mine, having no history of muscle problems, experienced muscle pains shortly after their statin was started for mild hypercholesterolemia. Much to their dismay these pains have persisted years after they stopped the offending drug. They are but two of thousands of people in this growing subgroup with persistent and apparently permanent muscle symptoms seemingly triggered by statin drug use. Current research indicates that many of these have an unsuspected genetic predisposition. Some of these cases respond to CoQ10, many do not.

Another growing reality is that of peripheral neuropathy, particularly unresponsive to treatment, coming on soon after statin therapy is initiated. Once this occurs, not only does it seems to be permanent but tends to worsen in many patients. Hundreds of victims are incapacitated, even crippled by this unfortunate side effect, seemingly related to alterations in CoQ10 availability brought on by statin drug interference with the mevalonate pathway.

Mevalonate pathway disruption also seems to be the mechanism of action for another type of neurological disaster associated with statin use, that of neurodegenerative disease onset shortly after the start of treatment. Only in the past few years have we learned of the unfortunate tendency of statins to promote the tau protein formation while inhibiting the usual sequence of biochemical reactions in the mevalonate pathway.

Tau protein is now known to promote the formation of neuro-fibrillatory tangles with secondary neuronal damage, offering a possible explanation for the unusual number of cases we are seeing of amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, Parkinsonism, frontal lobe dementia and Alzheimers' disease and other neurodegenerative conditions shortly after statins are started. This suggests that these diseases are somehow being triggered by statins. Need I add that these diseases are both permanent and progressive.

Not only have statin drug companies failed to adequately warn prescribing physicians of permanent cognitive loss associated with statin use, they have failed to warn about permanent neuromuscular and neurodegenerative consequences. Thousands of unsuspecting people have become victims and in most of these cases their doctors, having had no advance warning from the pharmaceutical industry, have tended to disregard patient complaints, offering almost any explanation other than the correct one.
On hearing hundreds of complaints about doctor rebuff on this subject of statin side effects, I well recall the words of Doctor Ellsworth Amidon, my professor of medicine at Vermont College of Medicine, way too many years ago: "Listen well to the words of the patient, my young doctors, for they are telling you the diagnosis."

Duane Graveline MD MPH
Former USAF Flight Surgeon
Former NASA Astronaut
Retired Family Doctor



The more i read the more I'd risk my chances of just getting a heart attach than ever putting a statin pill in my mouth again.
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