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  #76   ^
Old Wed, Jun-27-12, 11:16
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Aradasky Aradasky is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plinge
I'm not the biggest fan of Wheat Belly, though I had given up wheat before I read it. In broad terms, I agree with Davis; but he is a little dodgy on the science, in my opinion, which is what happens when you exaggerate to suit your argument; and his writing style got on my nerves.

I have mixed feelings aobut him as I was wondering about his calcium/acid advice. And he mixes his message, I feel. He says we can eat all the nuts we want, no calories needed, yet there is his talk aobut replacing the wheat calories with the Good calories of cheese, nuts and .....

However, if he can convince more to give up wheat the better. I had also not been eating wheat except for the rare dinner-out item but my SIL needs to and this might be a good nudge..
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  #77   ^
Old Wed, Jun-27-12, 12:31
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amundson amundson is offline
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Awesome thread!! I just heard about it yesterday and read through it yesterday and today. Plinge, you are too modest! There are great ideas here that people can try. Your efforts are the embodiment of science! I would love to see you continue your investigations and post your thoughts.
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  #78   ^
Old Wed, Jun-27-12, 14:18
Plinge Plinge is offline
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Plan: No factory-processed food
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Diet supplements don't work. Do they?

I’ve never considered taking a diet supplement; till recently I didn’t even know what they contained or how they work. (I certainly wouldn't take anything that raises metabolism–healthier to let metabolism do its own thing, I say.) Then I read in several places that some diet supplements are supposed to work the way dietary fibre works, by binding a portion of fats and reducing their absorption. This interested me, not because I'm considering diet supplements but because it's nice to know that a phenomenon I’ve been speculating about on this thread isn't unheard of in the diet world.

*

One of the supplements I read about was glucomannan, which is an extract of konjac root. I even happened to have some in the house. I bought it in the early days of my low-carb diet, one of several supplements I tried in an attempt to deal with the constipation I suffered when eating about 10 grams of carbohydrate a day. The glucomannan made no difference, so I pushed it to the back of the fail cupboard and forgot about it. I now grasp that the reason it didn’t work was that it’s a soluble fibre; only insoluble fibre significantly helps with constipation. But soluble fibre does have its uses–and, as I was mentioning yesterday, one of those is its apparent ability to reduce the absorption of fats.

*

When I looked into weight-loss supplements, I wasn’t surprised to find them reported by researchers as largely ineffective. (Weight-loss in a pill? As if.) In a 2004 review of dietary supplements, for example, Pittler and Ernst find little scientific evidence (in high-standard trials) that they work. But, they say (I pricked up an ear), glucomannan may be an exception. They point to an old trial from 1984, the abstract of which reads:

“An eight-week double-blind trial was conducted to test purified glucomannan fiber as a food supplement in 20 obese subjects. Glucomannan fiber (from konjac root) or placebo was given in 1-g doses (two 500 mg capsules) with 8 oz water, 1 h prior to each of three meals per d. Subjects were instructed not to change their eating or exercise patterns. Results showed a significant mean weight loss (5.5 lbs) using glucomannan over an eight-week period. Serum cholesterol and low-density lipoprotein cholesterol were significantly reduced (21.7 and 15.0 mg/dl respectively) in the glucomannan treated group. No adverse reactions to glucomannan were reported.” (Walsh et al, Effect of glucomannan on obese patients: a clinical study, 1984)

Poking further around the internet, I found the following conclusion to a review of randomised controlled trials of glucomannan:

“Glucomannan appears to beneficially affect total cholesterol, LDL cholesterol, triglycerides, body weight, and FBG, but not HDL cholesterol or BP.” (Sood et al, Effect of glucomannan on plasma lipid and glucose concentrations, body weight, and blood pressure: systematic review and meta-analysis, 2008)

And an Italian paper, which concluded:

"Two groups of 25 severely obese patients underwent 3 months of hypocaloric diet therapy either alone or associated with a glucomannan-based fibrous diet supplement (approx. 4 g/die in 3 doses). The comparative analysis of the results obtained in both groups showed that the diet + glucomannan group had a more significant weight loss in relation to the fatty mass alone, an overall improvement in lipid status and carbohydrate tolerance, and a greater adherence to the diet in the absence of any relevant side effects. Due to the marked ability to satiate patients and the positive metabolic effects, glucomannan diet supplements have been found to be particularly efficacious and well tolerated even in the long-term treatment of severe obesity." (Vita et al, Chronic use of glucomannan in the dietary treatment of severe obesity, 1992)

Plus another review:

"At doses of 2-4 g per day, glucomannan was well-tolerated and resulted in significant weight loss in overweight and obese individuals. There is some evidence that glucomannan exerts its beneficial effects by promoting satiety and fecal energy loss." (Keithley and Swanson, Glucomannan and obesity: a critical review, 2005)

*

Now, this still doesn't mean I'm going to start taking glucomannan. I already eat dietary fibre (in real food) that, I believe, has this very effect. But I remember the reason I tried it (on my weight-loss diet) for constipation was that I was afraid to eat traditional anti-constipatory, high-fibre foods such as prunes, oats, etc., because of their carbs. I bet a lot of low-carbers have found themselves with that conflict. So it strikes me that someone who wanted to try for a fibre-reduces-fat-absorption effect within their low-carb diet might find a use for glucomannan, a few capsules of which don’t contain that much carb.

What I particularly like about the idea of glucomannan is that it's reported to be well tolerated and safe, which is not true for something like guar gum, which can cause blockages and other frights. There have been very few reports of such blockages with glucomannan, but the risk is that a capsule taken without water might lodge in the oesophagus and swell up there. To see how much glucomannan swells, I emptied a capsule into a glass of water and stirred. It formed a very light gel, which I could easily swill in the glass, almost like normal water, even hours later–so I wouldn’t fear its gelling capacity in the body.

And glucomannan's not a test-tube product. Yes, it's processed, to the extent that the konjac root has been ground to powder–but nothing's been added to it bar what the capsule's made of, and you can tip it out of that.

So it seems there’s little downside (other than potential disappointment, but how we are used to that). I mean, the deal is: take a capsule with each meal and you might lose extra weight. Sounds like diet-miracle nonsense. But look above: it’s the scientists wot said it.

*

I might give it a go, for curiosity's sake, eaten with cheese, and report my results. (Adds glucomannan to list of five thousand planned experiments.)

Last edited by Plinge : Wed, Jun-27-12 at 14:29.
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  #79   ^
Old Wed, Jun-27-12, 14:35
Plinge Plinge is offline
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Plan: No factory-processed food
Stats: 230/147/147 Male 5' 10"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amundson
Awesome thread!! I just heard about it yesterday and read through it yesterday and today. Plinge, you are too modest! There are great ideas here that people can try. Your efforts are the embodiment of science! I would love to see you continue your investigations and post your thoughts.


Oh, cheers, amundson. Thanks for visiting.

It's not modesty. As William Goldman said about Hollywood: "No one knows anything". We're all groping in the dark.
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  #80   ^
Old Wed, Jun-27-12, 15:05
Plinge Plinge is offline
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Plan: No factory-processed food
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freckles
You're the first person I've heard that didn't really like Wheat Belly. I liked it, but as you said, I am already on board with being wheat free. The other thing is that I'm not that scientifically minded.


Me neither. But I'm academically minded, so I've a tendency to compare statements (particularly overstatements) with their sources. I suppose, as I said upthread, I just don't like gurus. I prefer reading textbooks to popular science books, but I do read both.
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  #81   ^
Old Wed, Jun-27-12, 15:15
Plinge Plinge is offline
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Plan: No factory-processed food
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aradasky
I have mixed feelings aobut him as I was wondering about his calcium/acid advice. And he mixes his message, I feel. He says we can eat all the nuts we want, no calories needed, yet there is his talk aobut replacing the wheat calories with the Good calories of cheese, nuts and .....

However, if he can convince more to give up wheat the better. I had also not been eating wheat except for the rare dinner-out item but my SIL needs to and this might be a good nudge..


It's a tall order to write a whole book about wheat, and to do so Davis had to resort to considerable padding and digression, in my opinion. Although I don't eat wheat, I don't believe it's intrinsically incompatible with weight management (for non-diabetics): a calorie of wheat is not more fattening than, say, a calorie of beans. But for some of us it's morish, certainly, and so best avoided.
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  #82   ^
Old Thu, Jun-28-12, 00:41
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Aradasky Aradasky is offline
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Plan: Atkins
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plinge
It's a tall order to write a whole book about wheat, and to do so Davis had to resort to considerable padding and digression, in my opinion. Although I don't eat wheat, I don't believe it's intrinsically incompatible with weight management (for non-diabetics): a calorie of wheat is not more fattening than, say, a calorie of beans. But for some of us it's morish, certainly, and so best avoided.

And that argument is being debated long and hard in this community. Some say, and I believe, if a calorie is a carb that causes an insulin response-say it tips the balance of carbs to the high side and a rush of insuline is released, then that calorie can and quite probably will be stored as fat, if it is over the amount needed for instant energy because of the insulin. On the other hand, if the calorie is fat then insulin will not respond and the body is not as ready to store it as fat. So are they really the same? I know you did your fat and nut experiments with a min and max number of calories involved but I wonder if eating to fullness of fat vs carbs - no matter of the calories would have the same result. I am not willing to do the carb part of this experiment and know that the Atkins fat fast also counts calories and warns of more than a few days on it, so I still wonder.

But if it is true that fat is not stored and carbs and protein are, then if we do not tip the balance of carbs, eating too many then we should lose weight even if we eat many tablespoons of coconut oil in a day along with our 30 carbs a day if that is our limit (it is about mine when at home).

However, to compare one calorie of a carb with another, wheat vs kale or cabbage for instance is even harder. Personal experimentation in in order to see what each body can accept without tipping the scale.

On this trip I am not eating in the same way as I do at home, I am allowing myself more leeway, may even have a scone today and will see what happened to it all when I get home. However, first a stop in France and its croissants, egads......
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  #83   ^
Old Thu, Jun-28-12, 04:23
Plinge Plinge is offline
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Plan: No factory-processed food
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aradasky
And that argument is being debated long and hard in this community. Some say, and I believe, if a calorie is a carb that causes an insulin response-say it tips the balance of carbs to the high side and a rush of insuline is released, then that calorie can and quite probably will be stored as fat, if it is over the amount needed for instant energy because of the insulin. On the other hand, if the calorie is fat then insulin will not respond and the body is not as ready to store it as fat. So are they really the same? I know you did your fat and nut experiments with a min and max number of calories involved but I wonder if eating to fullness of fat vs carbs - no matter of the calories would have the same result. I am not willing to do the carb part of this experiment and know that the Atkins fat fast also counts calories and warns of more than a few days on it, so I still wonder.

But if it is true that fat is not stored and carbs and protein are, then if we do not tip the balance of carbs, eating too many then we should lose weight even if we eat many tablespoons of coconut oil in a day along with our 30 carbs a day if that is our limit (it is about mine when at home).

However, to compare one calorie of a carb with another, wheat vs kale or cabbage for instance is even harder. Personal experimentation in in order to see what each body can accept without tipping the scale.

On this trip I am not eating in the same way as I do at home, I am allowing myself more leeway, may even have a scone today and will see what happened to it all when I get home. However, first a stop in France and its croissants, egads......


When I look at my detailed food journals, I do not see a consistent correlation between either calories or carbs and weight loss. It would be nice to have a formula, but I couldn't find one. What I did find was a correlation between certain types of food and weight gain or loss. So I simplify things by eating what doesn't fatten me so much and not eating what does.

As you know, my hypothesis about why some foods are more fattening for me than others has to do less with the values on the food labels or tables and more to do with how digestible a type of food is. In my opinion, a calorie is a calorie in terms of energy potential, but if that calorie is not metabolised, it becomes a wasted calorie and has no effect. Whether I am right or not, this view has made life very simple for me: the least digestively resistant food is highly processed food, and so I avoid that. I avoid wheat simply because it is all processed, even the wholegrain stuff. In principle, a calorie of white bread is no more fattening than a calorie of pinto beans; but in practice, the pinto calorie may not be so fully digested, particularly if I cook it al dente.

I happen not to agree with the insulin hypothesis of Taubes, Davis, and others. On physiological matters, I'm more inclined to side with the scientific community they so grossly impugn. In my view, the wrong foods lead to weight gain, whether they contain mainly carbs or fats. Such foods, which for me are processed foods, deliver too intense a calorie load and mess with satiation signals in the body.

Last edited by Plinge : Thu, Jun-28-12 at 05:29.
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  #84   ^
Old Thu, Jun-28-12, 04:43
Plinge Plinge is offline
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Plan: No factory-processed food
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One last little observation about glucomannan. As with most fibre supplements, the advice is often to take them an hour before meals, or at some point between meals, the reason being that they might bind nutrients from food if eaten with it. This may not matter if the supplement is being taken just for constipation. But in my opinion, if the glucomannan is to be given the best chance of binding fats and other calorific elements out of food and helping with weight loss, it should be eaten with food (perhaps in a small glass of water, to make sure it will mix in).

I know it goes against all principles of nutrition, but, as I said earlier in the thread, I am not worried about losing some nutrients from my food. Partly this is because I believe I am too well nourished to suffer deficiencies. But also because I now know that essential minerals such as calcium, iron, and zinc, which may be prevented by fibre from digestion in the small intestine, will be released--in proportion to the body's needs--when soluble fibre eventually ferments in the lower intestine.

I do take my vitamin supplements separately from my fibre-rich meals, usually with a cup of coffee with cream.
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  #85   ^
Old Thu, Jun-28-12, 11:14
Plinge Plinge is offline
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Plan: No factory-processed food
Stats: 230/147/147 Male 5' 10"
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Nut week experiments

I said I’d post my nut experiments, so here’s what happened on the three weeks (non-consecutive) when I ate nothing but nuts. My beverage was water, plus one mug of black coffee per day.

On the left is the number of calories eaten. At the time, I was on my low-carb weight-loss diet, and 1475 calories was the maximum I dared consume daily to stand a chance of losing. Normally that gave me a loss of 1-2lbs a week, which I considered the maximum possible. The figure on the right represents the movement on the scale each morning after.

Nut week 1

1437cal walnuts -1lb
1455 Brazils -1
1449 pecans -2
1455 almonds +0.5
1455 pine nuts -0.25
1455 pine nuts -0.75
1455 roast pistachios (1056) Brazils (399) +0.75

Total loss for week: -3.75lb

*

Nut week 2

This week I avoided the nuts associated previously with gains.

1455 Brazils 0
1266 mixed nuts -2
1449 pecans -1.25
1407 walnuts -0.75
1151 peanuts, raw -1
1455 Brazils 0
1266 mixed nuts -1

Total loss for week -5lb

*

Nut week 3

This time I equalised each day by a weight of 204 grams (3 lots of 68g). Here I deliberately experimented with some of the apparently less co-operative nuts (cashews, almonds, roasted).

1194 cashews, raw 0
1254 cashews (398) almonds (856) -0.75
1311 mixed roasted salted nuts, rinsed of salt -0.75
1284 almonds 0
1337 Brazils (493) mixed nuts (844) -0.5
1327 pecans/walnuts (483) mixed nuts (844) -0.5
1266 mixed nuts -0.75

Total loss for week -3.25lb
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  #86   ^
Old Thu, Jun-28-12, 12:00
Plinge Plinge is offline
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Plan: No factory-processed food
Stats: 230/147/147 Male 5' 10"
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Nut day experiments

I was thrilled to complete three nut weeks, because such experiments are sometimes hard to fit in with real life. I’ve also eaten nothing but nuts on other days–some of them fragments of attempted nut weeks that fell apart when real life intervened. I've iron commitment to my experiments (and I love eating nuts), but I won’t put them ahead of real life (I'm no Dr Frankenstein).

*

Calories to the left, movement on the scale to the right:

1266 mixed nuts -0.75

1449 pecans -0.5

1455 Brazils -0.75

1455 Brazils -1

1428 walnuts -0.75

1266 mixed nuts -1.5

1266 mixed nuts -1.25

1266 mixed nuts -1.75

*

The following two were on maintenance, when I needed a surefire way of knocking some weight back off.

1488 mixed nuts (421) walnuts/Brazils (952) 1 coffee with cream (115) -2.25

1428 walnuts -0.5

*

There were also the nut oil experiments, which I've mentioned before.

1395 peanut oil, virgin -1
1280 walnut oil, virgin -0.75

*

Experiments with roasted, salted nuts gave worse results, so I didn’t pursue them (I prefer raw nuts, anyway).

1311 mixed nuts, roasted, salted 0

1245 peanuts, roasted, salted +0.25
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  #87   ^
Old Fri, Jun-29-12, 12:22
Plinge Plinge is offline
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Plan: No factory-processed food
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Fruit & nut week experiment

As I've said, I love nuts. But I love them even more with dried fruit. Once I reached maintenance, I decided to test how much dried fruit I could get away with adding to my nut consumption. So I ate nothing but fruit and nuts for a week. Here are the results:

Calories to the left, movement of the scale to the right

2133 raisins (770) prunes (30) pistachios, roasted (401) mixed nuts (456) walnuts (476) -1.25

2128 dates (580) dried figs (225) mixed nuts (1323) -0.5

2128 dates (580) dried figs (225) mixed nuts (1323) -0.25

2175 dates (290) dried figs (450) walnuts (952) pecans (483) +0.25

2260
raisins (825) walnuts (658) pistachios, roasted (266) pecans (511) -0.75

2298 dates (870) walnuts (1428) 0

2154 dried figs (675) Brazils (1479) -0.75

Total loss for week -3.25

*

Dried fruit is a sugary, high-carb food, so I found this result pretty amazing. All I had hoped for was maintenance. In fact these losses dropped me out of my 8lb maintenance zone, which is 4lb either side of 11 stone (1541b). (That felt weird in itself: for the first time in my adult life, I was lighter than I wanted to be.)

As I've said before, I was overjoyed to find I could now safely eat both nuts and dried fruit, two of my favourite snack foods, calorific though they appear to be.
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  #88   ^
Old Fri, Jun-29-12, 12:48
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honeypie honeypie is offline
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Glucomannan is what shirataki noodles are made from. I buy the ones that are pure konjac and water, not the ones with soy.

I have to say,... if eaten ALONE,.. they make me HUNGRY.

I have tried this SO many times over the last 7 years or so, and yet for some reason I still can't believe it's true.

Of course, my test was also extreme. Large plateful of shirataki noodles with maybe 1T olive oil and 1T parmesan. Or maybe with 1/4 cup marinara sauce.

No matter how you slice it or dice it, that was a huge meal for between c. 50 - 100 kcal.

Inevitably though... EVERY time without fail.... my hunger was back within 60-120 min.

On c. 100 - 150 kcal of boiled eggs however... I could easily go all day without eating after that, and not feel sick or dizzy in the slightest.

However glucomannan/konjac has been known for thousands of years to provide an entire array of other health benefits as well.
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  #89   ^
Old Fri, Jun-29-12, 13:44
Plinge Plinge is offline
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Plan: No factory-processed food
Stats: 230/147/147 Male 5' 10"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by honeypie
Glucomannan is what shirataki noodles are made from. I buy the ones that are pure konjac and water, not the ones with soy.

I have to say,... if eaten ALONE,.. they make me HUNGRY.

I have tried this SO many times over the last 7 years or so, and yet for some reason I still can't believe it's true.

Of course, my test was also extreme. Large plateful of shirataki noodles with maybe 1T olive oil and 1T parmesan. Or maybe with 1/4 cup marinara sauce.

No matter how you slice it or dice it, that was a huge meal for between c. 50 - 100 kcal.

Inevitably though... EVERY time without fail.... my hunger was back within 60-120 min.

On c. 100 - 150 kcal of boiled eggs however... I could easily go all day without eating after that, and not feel sick or dizzy in the slightest.

However glucomannan/konjac has been known for thousands of years to provide an entire array of other health benefits as well.


I'm not surprised. I haven't tried glucomannan for weight loss, but I don't believe it would be filling for me. I'm not very interested in all the satiety claims for fibre because I'm almost impossible to fill--that's why I got fat. And it's no different now I'm five stone lighter.

So it wouldn't occur to me to try light foods bulked up with glucomannan. But I'd be interested in trying it to see if it will bind calories out of fattening foods, as research suggests that it will.

*

I've never found noodles of any sort filling. I love buckwheat noodles (soba?), but they don't make a dent in my appetite.

Last edited by Plinge : Fri, Jun-29-12 at 13:51.
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  #90   ^
Old Fri, Jun-29-12, 14:02
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honeypie honeypie is offline
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Plan: M-F vlc, looser LC wkends
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Quote:
I'd be interested in trying it to see if it will bind calories out of fattening foods, as research suggests that it will.

My very unscientific opinion with absolutely zero evidence to back it up ,... is that I too think, yes, for sure it must.

Even by the very basic nature of the viscosity/density of the gel it turns to alone;... the properties seem to be quite superlative to all other sources and forms of fiber... and in binding and in so efficiently moving out other things so well (ie toxins) too, I think it is highly unlikely that some portion of the the calories absorbed would NOT also be impacted.
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