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  #16   ^
Old Thu, Jul-21-11, 08:13
Merpig's Avatar
Merpig Merpig is offline
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Posts: 7,582
 
Plan: EF/Fung IDM/keto
Stats: 375/225.4/175 Female 66.5 inches
BF:
Progress: 75%
Location: NE Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LaceyC
One thing I'd like to know is how many of the folks who can't lose anymore on LC (and it did work for you at first, didn't it?) are coming from a background of having a lot of weight to lose. Are there any LC "failures" (for lack of a better word) who were less than 100 lbs. overweight?
Well I'm one of those with a lot of weight to lose. My highest *recorded* weight, at the doctor's office, was 375 pounds. Could I have been even more than that at some point? Possibly, but my own home scale didn't go beyond 350, and I did my best to avoid the doctor and the scale there. So 375 is the highest that I actually know about. A lot of times I just flat-out refused to get on the scale.

But on low carb I did get down to roughly 260 pounds, but then stalled. Stalled for almost 2 years, not able to lose weight despite adherence to LC eating. Not always the same during those 2 years - I tried various things. But nothing shook the weight. So yes, I'd be a CarbSane "failure" - still obese and still clinging to my LC WOE! My weight fluctuated a bit, though not to Jimmy's extremes, but I constantly bounced from the low 260s to the high 260s and back again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaceyC
If I were in your position, I'd go on my own exploration of the literature. I'd also read Peter's blog from start to finish. Carbsane is really all about personality and drama, which is a distraction from what you're looking for.
yeah, I spend a couple hours every day reading on my own. I've been a follower of Peter's blog for years.

When I first started following CarbSane's blog I was interested in a different point of view. But as you say, she really has gotten carried away with personality and drama. Her hatred of Gary Taubes borders on the obsessive. I'm beginning to think the signal to noise ratio is too extreme for me to care anymore. I guess in a way I wished that people would go to her blog and try to call her out - but the commenters mostly seem to be acolytes who agree with her completely.

But if I want a different viewpoint I think from now on I'll look for someone who can be civilized about it, like Stephan Guyanet.

And in the meantime, I've started losing a bit of weight in the last 2 weeks and am currently down to 257 which is a new low since I started my LC journey in 2006 (as you see, it's taken me *5 years* to reach this point, hardly a speedy weight loss). Maybe something is changing for the better now. Different eating style? Armour thyroid meds kicking in? I hope it will keep up.

But despite it all I do think her question of "why are there so many low carbers who are still heavy" is an interesting one. Yeah, maybe it's the supersizers like me. Maybe people not in the triple digit club do find it easier, and are more likely to reach goal. Someone like Linda Genaw, who CarbSane apparently holds up as a great success, started out needing to lose 50 pounds. That's a big difference from someone needing to lose 200+ pounds, like me, or Jimmy.

We do have 100+ successes here. But also many who have not come close to goal yet.

Last edited by Merpig : Thu, Jul-21-11 at 08:18.
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  #17   ^
Old Thu, Jul-21-11, 08:26
faduckeggs faduckeggs is offline
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Posts: 1,709
 
Plan: HF Atkins paleo
Stats: 230/144/150 Female 63 inches
BF:less/than/before
Progress: 108%
Location: Dallas
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Debbie, I'm so happy to hear that the weight loss has started back up for you. I've read your posts on here for eyars, it seems, and I've always been a silent cheerleader for you, hoping that you find the missing link to making the losses continue.

Proper thyroid supplements can make such a huge difference. I hope that is what you've needed all this time.
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  #18   ^
Old Thu, Jul-21-11, 08:31
LaceyC LaceyC is offline
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Posts: 85
 
Plan: Protein Power
Stats: 136/129/115 Female 61.5"
BF:26%/22%/21.7%
Progress: 33%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merpig
But on low carb I did get down to roughly 260 pounds, but then stalled. Stalled for almost 2 years, not able to lose weight despite adherence to LC eating. Not always the same during those 2 years - I tried various things. But nothing shook the weight.

Well, a +100lb. loss is fantastic. The HAES folks would tell you to be happy with that, but my gut reaction is that some kind of medical condition is keeping you from losing more - I'd expect a tapering off of weight loss, but not hitting the wall as you have. Could be thyroid, as you say. You might also try testing the Jaminets' theories that chronic infections can make you gain weight. I can't eat their recommended level of starch, but I do follow their supplement regimen religiously. Art Ayers' theories on gut flora also seem pretty solid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Merpig
I'm beginning to think the signal to noise ratio is too extreme for me to care anymore. I guess in a way I wished that people would go to her blog and try to call her out - but the commenters mostly seem to be acolytes who agree with her completely.

Her one redeeming quality is that she's good at using databases to dig up scientific papers (she says that's her job training). So I just get the references and then leave as quickly as possible. I've long suspected that she writes a number of her own comments on her blog, disguised as various sock puppets - the writing styles match hers in many cases.

Anyway, good luck - I don't know how many warm fuzzies I can get away with handing out in the War Zone, but you've been very generous in this community and deserve success, and you're clearly smart enough to make some headway with the scientific literature - the hard part is finding it.
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  #19   ^
Old Thu, Jul-21-11, 08:52
Nelson's Avatar
Nelson Nelson is offline
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Posts: 1,096
 
Plan: Organic Dukan Attack
Stats: 132/129.4/116 Female 4' 11"
BF:
Progress: 16%
Location: So. Cal.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LaceyC
One thing I'd like to know is how many of the folks who can't lose anymore on LC (and it did work for you at first, didn't it?) are coming from a background of having a lot of weight to lose. Are there any LC "failures" (for lack of a better word) who were less than 100 lbs. overweight?

Let me jump in here and confound the data a bit
I began low-carbing (Insulin Resistance diet, initially) five or six years ago. I was stunned at how easily I lost the first 7 lbs. The next 7 came off slower, but I eventually reached 111 and was thrilled with how easily it stayed off. I could even binge a little on the weekends and then drop it all by Wednesday.

Then, menopause hit with a bang! Hot flashes kicked in and weight gain began. Now, two years after the hot flashes started, it is all back plus a pound! None of my previously successful diets or low carb habits have had the slightest effect.

I tried no hrt AND bhrt. I spent $2500 going through the BodyLogic program. No help at all! Not even with the hot flashes (they lessened briefly then returned while still on the program). I am back off of hrt now and hoping to see some weight loss eventually.

So I agree that the weight loss is waaaaay more complicated than people like Taubes and Eades suggest, even for those of us who were never technically obese.

I will note, however, that in high school I weight 153 lbs at one time, lost into the mid 120s as an adult, and have been struggling ever since, except for those few golden years I just described. So I have never been an ectomorph.
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  #20   ^
Old Thu, Jul-21-11, 09:22
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Mirrorball Mirrorball is offline
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Posts: 753
 
Plan: Intuitive eating
Stats: 200/125/- Female 1.62m (5'4")
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Progress: 97%
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I like CarbSane and her blog, because a lot of what she's been saying is what I've always wanted to say, but I didn't want to be considered rude or mean. Some people have been low-carbing for years (i.e. Jimmy Moore) and are still obese. No problem with that. What bothers me is when those people disparage other diets and promote low-carb as the only healthy diet or the only way to lose weight when it has clearly not worked for them and other diets have worked for other people. WTH?! If you are never hungry on low-carb, then why did you fall off the wagon? If low-carb always works, then why are you still obese? Low-carb is not a walk in the park and most people FAIL. It's plain to see, and I don't understand why so many deny it.

Jimmy Moore has recently spoken against the new My Plate recommendation, saying that such diets have made him fat. But a few years ago, he posted a menu on April Fool's Day that reflected the way he ate before low-carb. It was pure junk food. That diet was not low in fat, nor was it based on the food pyramid. Then how can he claim those recommendations have made him fat?

Somebody has to point out these inconsistencies and name names, because if you don't, nobody is going to pay attention. People need concrete examples.
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  #21   ^
Old Thu, Jul-21-11, 11:56
Merpig's Avatar
Merpig Merpig is offline
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Posts: 7,582
 
Plan: EF/Fung IDM/keto
Stats: 375/225.4/175 Female 66.5 inches
BF:
Progress: 75%
Location: NE Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirrorball
I like CarbSane and her blog, because a lot of what she's been saying is what I've always wanted to say, but I didn't want to be considered rude or mean.
Yeah, it's not only what you say but how you say it. I think CarbSane does have some interesting things to say, but I also think she *is* rude and mean, which is not my style at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirrorball
Some people have been low-carbing for years (i.e. Jimmy Moore) and are still obese. No problem with that. What bothers me is when those people disparage other diets and promote low-carb as the only healthy diet or the only way to lose weight when it has clearly not worked for them and other diets have worked for other people. WTH?! If you are never hungry on low-carb, then why did you fall off the wagon? If low-carb always works, then why are you still obese? Low-carb is not a walk in the park and most people FAIL. It's plain to see, and I don't understand why so many deny it.
Yeah, well me too. Low carbing for 5 years now and still obese, though clearly *less* obese than I was 5 years ago! And much healthier in other ways too - blood sugar way down, lower blood pressure, more energy, etc. But yes, still obese. But I keep plugging along because low carb is the only eating plan I'm happy on. I've tried low fat. I lost a ton of weight on it. I'll even be honest and say I lost way more weight than I have lost on low carb, and much faster too. But yeah, I fell off the wagon, because I hated every single day on that diet. I was miserable from morning to night, and eventually decided I would rather weigh 300 pounds than eat that low fat, high whole grain diet one more day. But if it works for other people? Okay, I actually *do* think low carb is one of the healthiest ways to eat. But I'm not the food police. I might tell other people about my WOE, but I'm not a rabid proselytizer. I started a food-related blog about a year and a half ago, but I called it "The Healing Art of Food" as I was not 100% committed to low carb as the be-all and end-all of eating, and wanted the blog to reflect *any* ideas I had about healthy eating. But I have not posted to it lately as I find I have fewer and fewer ideas about healthy eating.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirrorball
Jimmy Moore has recently spoken against the new My Plate recommendation, saying that such diets have made him fat. But a few years ago, he posted a menu on April Fool's Day that reflected the way he ate before low-carb. It was pure junk food. That diet was not low in fat, nor was it based on the food pyramid. Then how can he claim those recommendations have made him fat?

Somebody has to point out these inconsistencies and name names, because if you don't, nobody is going to pay attention. People need concrete examples.
Well yeah, that's just pretty darn silly of Jimmy. I ate a diet similar to the My Plate, or the old pyramid, and I lost 150 pounds doing that. But I was miserable and totally asocial as I could not be around other people eating food, or attend any social function where food might be served. But I did lose weight! It didn't make me fat! Just miserable, .

Oh well, just this week I've been losing weight again, and down to 256 today which is a new 5-year-low. At least I have not gained any weight back during my low carb journey (or not significant weight, I would bounce a lot between 262 and 268 for the most part). And maybe I'l starting to lose again. And in the meantime I love my food.

But I *don't* think one needs to name names in the way that Carb Sane does. To me it hurts her credibility. Especially when she picks on people like Dana Carpender, or Dr. Mary Verson, who are not obese or even overweight. True they are not stick-insects, but I would say (having met them both) that they both have BMIs right in the range of "normal" - so for CarbSane to hold them both up as low carb "failures" seems a real stretch, and makes it seem like she is grasping just for the sake of naming names.

And I don't think of Jimmy as a failure either. The man used to weight 410 pounds. Now he is far from it. He doesn't look like Mark Sisson, for example, but he certainly looks far different from what he used to look like! I like to think that I do too.
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  #22   ^
Old Thu, Jul-21-11, 12:35
M Levac M Levac is offline
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Posts: 6,498
 
Plan: VLC, mostly meat
Stats: 202/200/165 Male 5' 7"
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Progress: 5%
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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I can't stand to read more than a few lines. It's one big ad hominem. CarbSane. Pfft.
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  #23   ^
Old Thu, Jul-21-11, 15:08
Mirrorball's Avatar
Mirrorball Mirrorball is offline
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Posts: 753
 
Plan: Intuitive eating
Stats: 200/125/- Female 1.62m (5'4")
BF:
Progress: 97%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merpig
But yes, still obese. But I keep plugging along because low carb is the only eating plan I'm happy on.

You are not dogmatic, and you are not saying everything is perfect. And most importantly, you don't have a website that promotes your story as a weight loss success story. I'm sure that both you and Jimmy Moore are much better off now than before, but he can't claim that this diet is going to work (or even work most of time) or that it's easy, because it's obviously not, and everybody struggles, and many (most?) never get close to their goal weight, or even to a normal BMI, if they don't fall off the wagon first and regain every pound.

Dana Carpenter looks overweight to me in the pictures you took at the cruise, but we don't know how much she weighs.

Last edited by Mirrorball : Thu, Jul-21-11 at 15:21.
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  #24   ^
Old Thu, Jul-21-11, 16:06
leemack's Avatar
leemack leemack is offline
NEVER GIVING UP!
Posts: 5,030
 
Plan: no sugar/grains LCHF IF
Stats: 478/354/200 Female 5' 9"
BF:excessive!!
Progress: 45%
Location: UK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirrorball
Dana Carpenter looks overweight to me in the pictures you took at the cruise, but we don't know how much she weighs.


I feel uncomfortable when this is made about weight, and finger pointing occurs such as this.

Low carb or paleo should be primarily about health. Hopefully weight loss will follow if its needed. However, obesity is such a complex thing that its wrong to point to someone, make a judgement about their weight and declare that therefore their way of eating is wrong. Some people will never lose all their weight, some people will struggle with weight no matter what plan they're following. There may be other factors at play such as illness, stress, medication, menopause, mental illness, bereavement, and other causes of obesity that we may not even know of yet.

Judging others for their size is unacceptable. Particularly repulsive when it is used for entertainment purposes, to score points or to just be mean -as carbsane does. To rip a guy apart who is actually trying to do something about his weight and help others. Were it a con, I could understand it, but the guy believes the advice he gives and appears to genuinely give his time to others. As do most of the low carb bloggers. What exactly does carbsane have against them, that she feels it necessary to personally attack them. The discussion is lost as soon as you resort to personal attacks instead of science, and at that point all credibility is also lost. The reality is that Jimmy Moore's or Dana Carpender's or anyone else's weight has no bearing on the science of obesity, nutrition or biochemistry unless they happen to be in a clinical study.

And no 'diet' guarantees 100% adherence, whether low fat, low carb, low calorie or any other plan. In fact long term adherence rates to all plans is very low - regardless of how much belief the person has that the diet is the right one.

Lee
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  #25   ^
Old Thu, Jul-21-11, 16:07
Merpig's Avatar
Merpig Merpig is offline
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Posts: 7,582
 
Plan: EF/Fung IDM/keto
Stats: 375/225.4/175 Female 66.5 inches
BF:
Progress: 75%
Location: NE Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirrorball
Dana Carpenter looks overweight to me in the pictures you took at the cruise, but we don't know how much she weighs.
Well I guess I must have a warped sense of what's normal and what's not, because even if I reach my goal weight I'll be heavier than Dana is now. And she doesn't look at all overweight to me. I think she looks great. But I guess my idea of "normal" is different from yours, or maybe from other people's too.
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  #26   ^
Old Thu, Jul-21-11, 16:19
leemack's Avatar
leemack leemack is offline
NEVER GIVING UP!
Posts: 5,030
 
Plan: no sugar/grains LCHF IF
Stats: 478/354/200 Female 5' 9"
BF:excessive!!
Progress: 45%
Location: UK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merpig
Well I guess I must have a warped sense of what's normal and what's not, because even if I reach my goal weight I'll be heavier than Dana is now. And she doesn't look at all overweight to me. I think she looks great. But I guess my idea of "normal" is different from yours, or maybe from other people's too.


Nope, your idea of normal seems fine to me.

I also think though that normal is often too narrowly defined - but Dana seems to fit into what the current idea of normal is.

Lee
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  #27   ^
Old Thu, Jul-21-11, 17:09
Mirrorball's Avatar
Mirrorball Mirrorball is offline
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Posts: 753
 
Plan: Intuitive eating
Stats: 200/125/- Female 1.62m (5'4")
BF:
Progress: 97%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leemack
Judging others for their size is unacceptable. Particularly repulsive when it is used for entertainment purposes, to score points or to just be mean -as carbsane does.

And aren't you judging Carbsane when you say she is doing this just to be mean? I understand that her posts are meant to point out that Jimmy Moore, Dana Carpender and others are making money and promoting the low-carb WOE based on their weight loss success, but they are still overweight or obese. She's not judging them for their size. She's judging them for false advertisement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by leemack
The reality is that Jimmy Moore's or Dana Carpender's or anyone else's weight has no bearing on the science of obesity, nutrition or biochemistry unless they happen to be in a clinical study.

Then tell Jimmy to change the title of his book 'Livin' La Vida Low-Carb: My Journey From Flabby Fat To Sensationally Skinny In One Year' or Dana to change the title of her book 'How I Gave Up My Low-Fat Diet and Lost 40 Pounds'. They are using their own weight, not the science of obesity, to sell books.
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  #28   ^
Old Thu, Jul-21-11, 17:12
Mirrorball's Avatar
Mirrorball Mirrorball is offline
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Posts: 753
 
Plan: Intuitive eating
Stats: 200/125/- Female 1.62m (5'4")
BF:
Progress: 97%
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Here is a picture of Dana Carpender at the cruise:
http://lovinitlowcarb.files.wordpre...jpg?w=500&h=375
When my boobs were big like hers, I used to weigh 200 lb. And she doesn't look slim at the waist either.
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  #29   ^
Old Thu, Jul-21-11, 18:42
Merpig's Avatar
Merpig Merpig is offline
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Posts: 7,582
 
Plan: EF/Fung IDM/keto
Stats: 375/225.4/175 Female 66.5 inches
BF:
Progress: 75%
Location: NE Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirrorball
Here is a picture of Dana Carpender at the cruise:
http://lovinitlowcarb.files.wordpre...jpg?w=500&h=375
When my boobs were big like hers, I used to weigh 200 lb. And she doesn't look slim at the waist either.
Hmm, not too flattering a picture of her, but she certainly is far from 200 pounds. Though she is pretty well endowed. She did make jokes about that. I looked to see what photos I had of her, but didn't have too many from this year's cruise, but the best one I found was this:
https://picasaweb.google.com/scall0...958010034481730

Maybe Dana still looks overweight to you here, but to me she looks perfectly normal. No reason for her not to be considered a LC success story.

But of course if you see the self-portrait I took in the cabin in the cruise at:
https://picasaweb.google.com/scall0...963458209298882
you can see why I'd be thrilled to death to have Dana's figure!
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  #30   ^
Old Thu, Jul-21-11, 18:58
Mirrorball's Avatar
Mirrorball Mirrorball is offline
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Posts: 753
 
Plan: Intuitive eating
Stats: 200/125/- Female 1.62m (5'4")
BF:
Progress: 97%
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Google says I don't have access to the photos. At 200 lb I was bigger than Dana, but my mum is smaller and she's 5-10 pounds overweight. Also have a look at these women, for instance:
http://www.mybodygallery.com/search...oto=Large&new=1
They are all overweight or obese, but some look smaller than Dana and quite healthy in fact.
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