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  #16   ^
Old Wed, Apr-06-11, 11:10
kelrivas's Avatar
kelrivas kelrivas is offline
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Plan: 80/20 Low Carb Paleo
Stats: 250/190/145 Female 63 in
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Progress: 57%
Location: Southern California
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I can ONLY lose weight when meds are optimal...one of the first indicators I need new blood work is my weight loss slows down...

You should be able to lose on a low carb diet if you are moderately active...if not get some blood work done.
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  #17   ^
Old Wed, Apr-06-11, 11:12
kelrivas's Avatar
kelrivas kelrivas is offline
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Plan: 80/20 Low Carb Paleo
Stats: 250/190/145 Female 63 in
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Progress: 57%
Location: Southern California
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sorry edited
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  #18   ^
Old Fri, Jun-03-11, 20:31
gregory b gregory b is offline
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Plan: Protein Power
Stats: 146/134/134 Male 165cm
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Progress: 100%
Location: Thailand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy LC

What Atkins, and any low calorie diet, will do is cause the amount of RT3 your body makes to go up. People who do calorie restricted diets as well as low carbers get this effect. It's simply the body's way of making sure you don't starve to death. It is temporary and should stop when you stop dieting.



Nancy, this is an interesting observation. Before trying T3 replacement might one simply up the carbs?

Can you direct me to any references on the temporariness of the RT3 production?
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  #19   ^
Old Fri, Jun-03-11, 21:39
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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Posts: 25,863
 
Plan: DDF
Stats: 202/185.4/179 Female 67
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Progress: 72%
Location: San Diego, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregory b
Nancy, this is an interesting observation. Before trying T3 replacement might one simply up the carbs?

Can you direct me to any references on the temporariness of the RT3 production?

http://www.planet-tama.net/printthr...?t=402898&pp=30

Or

http://www.thyroidmanager.org/Chapter5/5a-frame.htm
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  #20   ^
Old Sat, Jun-04-11, 03:11
gregory b gregory b is offline
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Plan: Protein Power
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Thanks Nancy.
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  #21   ^
Old Sat, Jun-04-11, 08:25
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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Plan: DDF
Stats: 202/185.4/179 Female 67
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Yes, it is worth trying to up the carbs. Supposedly the magic number is around 50g, but I would imagine that varies.
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  #22   ^
Old Sat, Sep-24-11, 14:12
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curiousjen curiousjen is offline
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Plan: atkins
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who are you going to for these meds? I've been going to my general dr. I got diagnosed hypothyroidism 2 years ago. Started meds and felt great. Tried low carb and felt EVEN better.

this past year i put on 40lbs & feel horrible again. I went back to my dr & asked if my thyroid could be still off & she responded "well you gained weight so I'll up your mg of med. you'll need it since there's more of you now" no blood test, nothing. Should i go to a specialist? I'm back on low carb hoping that will help again too
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  #23   ^
Old Sat, Sep-24-11, 14:16
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lisabinil lisabinil is offline
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Plan: Healthy moderate carb
Stats: 215/171/160 Female 5'6"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curiousjen
who are you going to for these meds? I've been going to my general dr. I got diagnosed hypothyroidism 2 years ago. Started meds and felt great. Tried low carb and felt EVEN better.

this past year i put on 40lbs & feel horrible again. I went back to my dr & asked if my thyroid could be still off & she responded "well you gained weight so I'll up your mg of med. you'll need it since there's more of you now" no blood test, nothing. Should i go to a specialist? I'm back on low carb hoping that will help again too



You need to go to a doc that is trained in the treatment of thyroid disease. You can go to the Armour website and use their physician locator to find someone in your area. I lucked out with my endo he gets it about thyroid disease.
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  #24   ^
Old Sat, Sep-24-11, 14:18
lisabinil's Avatar
lisabinil lisabinil is offline
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Posts: 1,442
 
Plan: Healthy moderate carb
Stats: 215/171/160 Female 5'6"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregory b
Nancy, this is an interesting observation. Before trying T3 replacement might one simply up the carbs?

Can you direct me to any references on the temporariness of the RT3 production?



"The Ketogenic Diet" by Lyle McDonald has a chapter on this and the scientific backup on the slowing down of the conversion of T4 into T3 with lowered carbs.
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  #25   ^
Old Thu, Oct-27-11, 17:29
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sprinkles sprinkles is offline
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Plan: Atkins
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This is really interesting and might explain why on a moderate low carbohydrate diet of 1200 calories per day, I was able to lose despite being hypothyroid, but I'm hitting a massive wall at 600 cal/day with near zero carb/high fat. I will definitely try to incorporate more non-goitrogenic foods. I printed out and read that whole article- it is very interesting (and I'm glad I have a biochem background).
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  #26   ^
Old Thu, Nov-10-11, 14:57
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Merpig Merpig is offline
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Plan: EF/Fung IDM/keto
Stats: 375/225.4/175 Female 66.5 inches
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lisabinil
You can go to the Armour website and use their physician locator to find someone in your area. I lucked out with my endo he gets it about thyroid disease.
Just a point of interest, I've moved recently and need a new doctor, so for fun thought I would check this out, but it seems to be no longer available. I couldn't find it in the Armour website. More Googling found a reference to it as: www.armourthyroid.com/con_phLocator.aspx but that link doesn't work.

I also found a Quackwatch entry this says, among other things:
Quote:
Desiccated thyroid extract, made from dried animal glands, was the most common form of treatment for hypothyroidism (low thyroid hormone levels) before the individual thyroid hormones (T3 and T4) were discovered and became commercially available. During the 1960s, science-based physicians stopped using it because its potency can vary from batch to batch, which would make it harder to optimize the patient's thyroid hormone levels...Desiccated animal thyroid is rarely prescribed today, and there is no evidence that desiccated thyroid has any advantage over synthetic T4....Doctors who prescribe desiccated thyroid typically diagnose "hypothyroidism" (underactive thyroid gland) in people with normal thyroid function. Many of these doctor base their diagnosis on "low" temperature readings determined by placing the thermometer under the armpit. This is not a valid test of thyroid function. Proper diagnosis requires blood tests that measure thyroid hormone levels....Because synthetic hormones are more reliable, the prescription of desiccated thyroid should be considered a sign of poor medical judgment. Even worse, from what I have seen, many doctors who prescribe it are prone to misdiagnose and overtreat patients in other ways. My advice is very simple: If you encounter anyone who prescribes desiccated thyroid extract, head for the nearest exit.
(bolding mine) I've hated this guy for years because of his stand on low carb dieting, but now that I have been diagnosed with Hashi's I have even more reason to hate him.
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  #27   ^
Old Thu, Nov-10-11, 20:59
heirloom10 heirloom10 is offline
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Plan: Kwasniewski
Stats: 120/132/115 Female 5'5"
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I just want to add that if you suspect you have a thyroid disease, it has been, in my experience, not wise to continue try dieting. It seems to have made my thyroid much worse to continue trying to eat 1200 calories. I suspect that putting your body under that extra stress of dieting, while already being a damaged-thyroid state, is seriously bad for your organs (I can attest that I developed heart/chest pains after doing that, and they haven't gone away for quite some time). Although poorly understood/appreciated, thyroid issues are very serious and need to be properly tested for, you should not blow it off for too long. (I know many people are aware of this, but I feel it is worth clearly saying again, esp. because some doctors don't do the right thing, and it can be hard to find a doc but it is worth it). I am not addressing anyone specifically, I just want to put it out there for anyone who feels on the fence. Also, something that may be of use to people is that hypothyroidism can cause you to crave and seemingly need carbohydrates. I'm waiting for the results of my tests, and my experience has been that I have had to stop low-carbing--my throat hurts far too much if I don't eat a lot of carbs.

Last edited by heirloom10 : Thu, Nov-10-11 at 21:07.
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  #28   ^
Old Thu, Nov-10-11, 23:02
rightnow's Avatar
rightnow rightnow is offline
Every moment is NOW.
Posts: 23,064
 
Plan: LC (ketogenic)
Stats: 520/381/280 Female 66 inches
BF: Why yes it is.
Progress: 58%
Location: Ozarks USA
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Most people don't know they have thyroid issues, the medical system mostly-sucks for this topic anyway, so it's not so unusual that people with the side-effects of metabolic disorder (a thyroid issue) (usually meaning they're fat) are going to find Atkins or LC in general first.

The problem isn't LC I think, although I don't know and I think research is needed. The problems are several, including that LC by its nature allows most people to feel satisfied on far fewer calories (one of, but not the only IMO, reason why it is so good for weight loss). And of course the person is 'dieting' so most people are either pretty happy for the low-cal side-effect of low-carb, or they just aren't even aware because that isn't what they're tracking. And most people were malnutritioned before they came to LC or they wouldn't have been {fat, diabetic, PCOS, or whatever} to begin with, so they are a little bit oblivious to that issue on LC as well.

I suspect a lot of this could be 'headed off' in new people, by more experienced people emphasizing to them the need to maintain sufficient caloric intake and nutritional diversity when they are on LowCarb.

For example I have known people who lost a lot of weight, and did it on low-cal (by accident, it was just easy on LowCarb) and repetitive foods with plenty of diet soda and so on. They were inspiring and so, other people saw that trivial things like supplements, drinking water, staying off chemical pseudo-foods, etc. were non-issues, hey you could live on deli meat and diet soda and lose weight, it works! But later on those same people had really significant issues, including thyroid (and they were thin then! well until those problems kicked in...), that I feel were probably brought on by those habits, but it didn't show up until later.

I think there are some other affective factors. For example once when I was VLC and not losing weight at all, I dropped to 1000 calories a day, which was fairly easy to track (when I am tracking it is to the gram weight and second decimal UDA/label), because they pretty much all came from low-carb slim-fast during that month period in question. I believe that month I lost 1# which returned the day after and I weighed over 400.

What I figured out later was that although the first six months or so on LC I lost a lot of weight, that after that (and the moreso as time went on), I simply would not lose weight unless my calories were sufficiently high (>2200+) and pretty much never, if much slim-fast was involved (it's a huge chunk of casein protein -- designed by nature to make baby cows fat -- this might have some relationship to why. O the irony of it...).

So there I was stalling repeatedly, going off LC repeatedly in frustration that it just didn't seem to be working so why bother, only to realize years later that malnutrition is probably what caused my problems to begin with, so my body was unlikely to be truly healed by continuing that trend, with or without carbs.

Also, over the longer term, I discovered that my lowcarb eating was really lacking in nutrition -- well, you might say it had a lot more than SAD and prior to LC had, thanks to meat, but it didn't have much else.

I'm not saying I think veggies are needed (opinion on that varies), I'm saying that living on store-bought muscle meats is nowhere near the same as living on a really wide variety of natural animal products (as proper paleo for example would), so I suspect supplementing (...or some other natural foods) is necessary.

The larger the person the more this is true, since what research I see on this indicates the larger the body, the more demanding it is on nutrients incoming, which only tends to make the malnourishment problem a snowballing-cycle of doom.

There were other issues or side effects but what amounts to malnutrition (and insufficient calories which may come down to the same thing) was the main thing.

In the last few years I have spent far more time OFF lowcarb than on it, which is the main reason why my weight is a lot higher than it used to be, rather embarrassing (and damn demoralizing to people looking on unfortunately). I've also figured out that I have a thyroid issue (you don't say! like my weight should not have made this obvious right off...).

However, I think that eating a few more carbs and considerably more calories and a lot more nutrition along the way would have made a big difference for me. I do feel that my eating lowcarb (as I was mostly on plan for a long time) contributed to worsening of some body-issues that affect my weight, but I don't think it's low-carb per se, I think it is how I approached lowcarb.

Insufficient calories, particularly insufficient nutrition, are going to be an issue for anyone, but moreso the fatter one is, no matter whether the diet has 10 carbs or 40 carbs or 120 carbs. I suspect the side-effects of 'aggravated existing thyroid issues' might have been improved, not worsened, had I approached the eating differently.

If I had it to do over again -- and advice based on hard experience and repeated weight regain -- I would advise strongly, especially if the person is super-obese but no matter what:
  • That people eat sufficient calories; track it and maintain them.
  • That people eat sufficient diversity in food; track it and make sure as many animal protein sources as possible are represented. Particularly bone-broth.
  • That super-obese people don't stay VLC for more than 3 months max and probably less, and eat more carbs after or maybe ideally, could try carb-cycling one day a week, with the caveat that the 'more carby' day simply have something like milk [if they're ok with dairy] or starchy veg or fruit in it (not crapfood).
  • That people eat as much on the Omega 3 vs. Omega 6 oils as possible, learn what is in food (especially factory farmed food). Coconut oil (refined by _not_ hydrogenated, see tropicaltraditions.com, doesn't taste like it and is a great oil for cooking) is good stuff.
  • That people supplement; if they are eating a really diverse animal protein diet maybe it isn't needed for all I know, but if they are significantly (let alone morbidly) overweight, and/or if their diet is mostly the same muscle meats from the store, I think it becomes critical. Frankly I think if one was fat/ill to begin with they should supplement, not because it would be needed for someone healthy on an ideal diet, but because there is some years of trying to compensate for gradually needed. I suspect nutrients, like sleep, is not something you can be deprived of over the long term, then expect to make up for immediately.
  • That people focus on health which can also mean avoiding sticking toxic stuff in your body (more water than diet soda). That people avoid gluten grains particularly lowcarb flours and bread-ish products which goes with the point about toxins (for anyone, even those not overtly seeing symptoms of intolerance; I'd consider it an offplan treat in that case).

All these things I believe contribute to good health, and usually resultant weight loss -- and all these things done badly I believe contribute to poor health, and often worsening the very conditions one began with (like thyroid), even during weight loss, although regain becomes more inevitable as a result.

None of those are about avoiding LC or about having to treat thyroid first though. They are just having learned to recognize that even within the parameters of low-carb, there is a big variety of "ways to eat."

It should be recognized that anybody with a metabolic condition to start with already has problems, and the more sick and/or fat they are, the moreso, which make these factors of "sufficient nutrition" -- in calories, in nutrients, in reduction of toxins -- even more important.

Best,
PJ

Last edited by rightnow : Thu, Nov-10-11 at 23:08.
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  #29   ^
Old Fri, Nov-11-11, 05:58
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inatic inatic is offline
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Plan: leanbodies consulting
Stats: 183/130/130 Female 5'4.5"
BF:lean
Progress: 100%
Location: alpharetta,georgia (n of
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sprinkles
This is really interesting and might explain why on a moderate low carbohydrate diet of 1200 calories per day, I was able to lose despite being hypothyroid, but I'm hitting a massive wall at 600 cal/day with near zero carb/high fat. I will definitely try to incorporate more non-goitrogenic foods. I printed out and read that whole article- it is very interesting (and I'm glad I have a biochem background).


good grief, EAT!!!!!!!!
you are only shutting down your body, doing it no favors!


diet should be a lifestyle not a fast track to see how much wt you can get off... if it isnt maintainable, you're on the wrong plan.
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  #30   ^
Old Fri, Nov-11-11, 08:04
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Neanderpam Neanderpam is offline
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Plan: Ketogenic now
Stats: 277/121/125 Female 61 inches
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Location: NE Indiana
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merpig
Just a point of interest, I've moved recently and need a new doctor, so for fun thought I would check this out, but it seems to be no longer available. I couldn't find it in the Armour website. More Googling found a reference to it as: www.armourthyroid.com/con_phLocator.aspx but that link doesn't work.

I also found a Quackwatch entry this says, among other things:
(bolding mine) I've hated this guy for years because of his stand on low carb dieting, but now that I have been diagnosed with Hashi's I have even more reason to hate him.


Know that you are in good company in your 'hatred' of him.
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