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  #76   ^
Old Tue, Dec-14-10, 21:17
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Plan: mostly milkfat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Levac
It's easy to forget that the blog author tried to make the point that the Inuit sought plants for food, not just anything for food. The debate is between an all-meat diet, or a mixed diet. She argues the Inuit ate a mixed diet. There's no doubt about that. She further argues the Inuit sought plants for nourishment. There she fails. The best should could do was show that the Inuit ate some plants for pleasure or medicine.


But, I didn't forget that. I agree that the fact that the particular Inuit studied gathered these plants doesn't prove that they needed them to survive; but since they did indeed eat some plant matter, we can't use the Inuit as proof that a plant-free diet is sustainable long-term.

Or, at least, the Inuit written about in the blog. These may not be the same people Stefansson learned about the all-meat diet from. Here's what the blog author wrote;

Quote:
One of the views that I get the most email about is my assertion that Inuit ate and still do eat plants. I have gotten dozens of emails saying I am wrong because of

1. Vilhjalmur Stefansson, an explorer, said so, in Fat of the Land

2. My professor/cousin/best friend's daughter lived with the Inuit and said they didn't eat any plants

Perhaps Anore Jones is part of a conspiracy, but if she is, it seems to be fairly usophisticated, because almost none of her book's content has been disseminated online and it contains recipes that use such crowd-pleasing ingredients like seal oil and fish heads. Her book is called Plants That We Eat and it's 240 pages, which is curious for a culture that supposedly eats no plants. If it's fiction, she's done a rather miserable job and I suggest you read Borges' The Book of Imaginary Beings instead.

But I doubt it's fiction. She lived in Kotzebue with Inupiat for 19 years and has numerous photos of them preparing plants. I think people with plant-free anecdotes may have either not spent enough time with the Eskimos or might have not had enough contact with women. According to Anore

Generations of Inupiat have lived healthy lives eating predominately meat and fat. They got all the necessary nutrients because their diet included much raw or lightly cooked meats, including heart, liver, kidney, brain, eggs, the edible parts of stomach, stomach contents, intestines, bones, and/or skin. Essential or not, plant foods remain a treat. Inupiat have always eagerly sought and stored in quantity all that were available.


The book is called Plants That We Eat, subtitled "From the traditional wisdom of the Inupiat Elders of Northwest Alaska."

According to Stefansson;

Quote:
With these views in my head and, deplorably, a number of others like them, I resigned my position as assistant instructor in anthropology at Harvard to become anthropologist of a polar expedition. Through circumstances and accidents which are not a part of the story, I found myself that autumn the guest of the Mackenzie River Eskimos.


Are these "Mackenzie River Eskimos" identical in culture and diet (at least at the time of Stefansson's visit,) to the Inupiat? Indeed, are the Inupiat themselves a homogenous culture? Steffanson never claimed to have stayed with every Eskimo family from Alaska to Greenland. He claimed to have lived with some particular Eskimos who lived on nothing but fish and a little tea and tobacco, while he was with them. I think the tea and tobacco are doubtful sources of vitamin c or calcium. Then again, he didn't live with these people for very long, just the winter. Maybe they ate berries in the summer.


http://www.biblelife.org/stefansson1.htm
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  #77   ^
Old Tue, Dec-14-10, 21:48
Angeline's Avatar
Angeline Angeline is offline
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Plan: Atkins (loosely)
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You remind of me of Dr Campbell who studied the effect of casein on rats. Under a rather specific set of circumstances which I don't want to relate here (it can easily be googled) he found that casein taken in isolation caused cancers in rats. From that he extrapolated that animal proteins cause cancer and therefore a vegan diet is best. The reaction of any reasonable person to that conclusion is WTF?

So that's my reaction to what you just said. WTF?

Ancel Keys was a semi-starvation diet, and so was the Biosphere experiment. Also the Biosphere experiment has other issues present as well, including low light and oxygen deprivation. What both experiment showed was that humans do very poorly on a semi-starvation diet with the wrong macro-nutrient ratios. Ancel Keys was trying to emulate the diet of a war-starved country, and the Biosphere through circumstances or bad design or both, turned out the same. I don't see how this relate to your assertion that plant is not food. Unless you are again using your patented Levac technique of inventing definitions and arguing at cross purpose with people because their definition of a term does not match the one you invented.
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  #78   ^
Old Tue, Dec-14-10, 21:57
mathmaniac mathmaniac is offline
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Plan: Wingin' it.
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11542292

If we're talking about the same Biosphere 2 experiment, they averaged about 2200 calories per day for the two years. They lost about 10% body weight at first and then gained some back. I eat around that amount of calories every day.
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  #79   ^
Old Tue, Dec-14-10, 22:14
KarenJ's Avatar
KarenJ KarenJ is offline
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Plan: tasty animals with butter
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Interesting. Either this has deteriorated into the worst discussion ever, or it has ascended into the best think-tank discussion ever. There are just too many variables at play... yet somehow quality ensues. There are no Trolls here in this discussion. Yes?
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  #80   ^
Old Tue, Dec-14-10, 22:22
mathmaniac mathmaniac is offline
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Plan: Wingin' it.
Stats: 257/240.0/130 Female 65 inches
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Progress: 13%
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No trolls. But I'm just guessing there are no plans for this group to lock themselves into a biosphere for two years...
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  #81   ^
Old Tue, Dec-14-10, 22:38
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Angeline Angeline is offline
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This is where I got my information, which seems factual but I didn't check

Quote:
So how much fun did the crew have on this diet? Well, Walford is practically mute on the subject in his paper. There's one sentence. "At six months, both sexes were at a body fat composition at the lower bounds of normal but reported no ill effects." Enter The Human Experiment: Two Years and Twenty Minutes Inside Biosphere 2, where Jane Poynton describes hunger, fatigue, mental fog, licking each plate rather obsessively and elaborate food rituals, and depression. Her descriptions very much remind me of the rituals in this book: Wasted: A Memoir of Anorexia and Bulimia
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  #82   ^
Old Wed, Dec-15-10, 00:35
mathmaniac mathmaniac is offline
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Plan: Wingin' it.
Stats: 257/240.0/130 Female 65 inches
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7613481

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11538814

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8830939

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11542292

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9570177

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1454844

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12023257

Some of the studies have pdfs to download. So far as I can see, the scientists were prepared for what was basically a scientific experiment. They didn't suffer from semi-starvation (as I said, their average caloric intake is not unlike mine, and I'm fat - but they actually did work as a crew).

If someone reported being very hungry, I believe it! I get very hungry myself eating pretty much their level of caloric intake. But I'm fat. I'm not starving or even semi-starving.

But I'd be bored in Biosphere 2 - like never being allowed to leave a small farm for 2 years. Never. Yeah, I'd want to leave. I'd probably want to go to a restaurant once in two years, too. And maybe go to a bar and meet someone else besides the people I've been locked up with for two years!

It doesn't matter. These were scientists. If they were semi-starving, then by all rights, I am too. And I'm not - I count what I eat every day.
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  #83   ^
Old Wed, Dec-15-10, 09:00
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ubizmo ubizmo is offline
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Plan: mumble
Stats: 273/230/200 Male 73 inches
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"Several species of small ground-growing berries are often eaten by the western Eskimo, particularly a yellow berry called Ak'pek (the Cloudberry, Rubus chamaerus), the At'tsiak (Alpine Bearberry, Mairania alpina), and the paun'rat (Empetrum nigrum). These berries are eaten by the Coronation Gulf Eskimo, except the alpek, the use of which is unknown, although in the opinion of white men and the Western Eskimo, it is the best of all local berries. They are eaten by the Mackenzie Eskimo, but they say they did not use them extensively until taught to do so by the Alaskan Eskimo (not more than twenty-five years ago). The leaves of Oxyria digyna, a species of sorrel, are frequently mixed with seal-oil and eaten as a kind of salad by the western Eskimo. The plant is called Ko'na-ritj by the Alaskan Eskimo. The partly digested contents of the Barren Ground caribou are frequently eaten frozen in winter. Stomachs filled with reindeer-moss are considered much better than those from caribou which have been feeding on the coarse, woody fibers of grassy plants. As with most other viands, this dish is not considered complete without a liberal dressing of seal-oil." -- V. Stefansson, My Life With the Eskimo, p. 446.

Note the use of the words "often" and "frequently." Just before this passage, there is a comment about a particular type of root that is not eaten often, but only when meat is scarce.

Does this tell us that the Inuit needed berries or salad to survive? Obviously it doesn't. It does tell us, however, that they took advantage of plant foods available to them, just as human beings everywhere else do.

Ubizmo
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  #84   ^
Old Wed, Dec-15-10, 09:05
PilotGal PilotGal is offline
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Plan: KetoCarnivore
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i can't wait to learn what was in that cauldron they found, with soup still in it...
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  #85   ^
Old Wed, Dec-15-10, 09:21
KarenJ's Avatar
KarenJ KarenJ is offline
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Plan: tasty animals with butter
Stats: 170/115/110 Female 60"
BF:maintaining
Progress: 92%
Location: Northeastern Illinois
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ubizmo
As with most other viands, this dish is not considered complete without a liberal dressing of seal-oil." -- V. Stefansson, My Life With the Eskimo, p. 446.


Does this tell us that the Inuit needed berries or salad to survive? Obviously it doesn't. It does tell us, however, that they took advantage of plant foods available to them, just as human beings everywhere else do.

Ubizmo


Would they still have eaten it if there was no seal oil?
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  #86   ^
Old Wed, Dec-15-10, 09:48
arc's Avatar
arc arc is offline
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Plan: Meat Only
Stats: 200/169.6/175 Male 5'11''
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ubizmo
Does this tell us that the Inuit needed berries or salad to survive? Obviously it doesn't. It does tell us, however, that they took advantage of plant foods available to them, just as human beings everywhere else do.


Exactly. That was my biggest gripe with the blog post. She makes this statement:

Quote:
Obviously, their diet is still low carb, but there is evidence that the plants that they eat, even if they don't contribute a lot of calories, matter on a micronutritional level.


There was no proof of that unless you are starting with the belief that man can't live on animal products alone so the small amount of plant material somehow protected them. There isn't enough long term proof either way.
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  #87   ^
Old Wed, Dec-15-10, 10:05
mathmaniac mathmaniac is offline
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Posts: 6,639
 
Plan: Wingin' it.
Stats: 257/240.0/130 Female 65 inches
BF:yes!
Progress: 13%
Location: U.S.A.
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Just curious: did they have to have their berries doused in seal oil? I'm thinking that it's a matter of taste. I used to like my fresh strawberries with cream but now I eat them plain. I'm guessing that's all about taste.

One thing that the Biosphere 2 people missed was the variety of stimuli they were used to. They would use binoculars to watch people eat hot dogs outside the biosphere (someone had set up a stand near the installation) and they marveled at how FAT everyone seemed to be. You can call that 'hunger for a hot dog' but you can also call it boredom and the need for stimuli. People in the flesh instead of people on TV (they all had TVs in their rooms, except one person who didn't want one, and they had meetings with the outside world via videoconferencing).

The biosphere crew took turns making meals from the food they carefully planned to use. Some people were better cooks than others. But everyone got exactly the same food, same amounts, no matter whether they liked the food or were taller or hungrier, or worked harder or what (they decided themselves that the calculations would be too complicated so they made that rule themselves). Taking turns cooking (and some members were more inventive than others) gave them variety and contributed stimuli when they just couldn't get it, given their limits. One person made great cakes, one person made a fantastic lasagna.

Actually, they did have fun. You can read assorted pages in the Jane Poynton book mentioned by going to Amazon and 'opening' the book and skipping around. When she celebrated her 30th birthday, they had a party on the 'beach' with favorite lasagna and birthday cake, dressed up and entertained each other with stories. They were kind of an artistic bunch, playing instruments and writing poetry, making art, etc. In addition to doing the heavy physical work in the sphere.

They took only 6 months to regain the weight they lost, once they were outside in the world. One person decided not to, and continued to restrict his or her eating. I wonder if all those 'fat' people eating hot dogs influenced that decision!
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  #88   ^
Old Wed, Dec-15-10, 12:07
Altari Altari is offline
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Plan: Meats & Veggies
Stats: 255/167/160 Female 66 inches
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Progress: 93%
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Awww, I always miss the good ones. :-)

2 cents: Food does not dictate that I maintain excellent health indefinitely. It simply must allow my body to operate properly until I have exhausted my biological imperative [reproduction]. Once a woman reaches menopause, her body ceases to function properly, regardless of diet. A proper diet may extend childbearing years, but ultimately the body will decline. Conversely, an improper diet will inhibit or exclude reproductive ability and fitness.

So, seems to me, the label of "food" can only be applied to items that facilitate reproductive fitness. None of the experiments mentioned did this. Did Bellevue do a sperm count? End 2 cents. :-)
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  #89   ^
Old Wed, Dec-15-10, 12:23
M Levac M Levac is offline
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Plan: VLC, mostly meat
Stats: 202/200/165 Male 5' 7"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angeline
Ancel Keys was a semi-starvation diet, and so was the Biosphere experiment. Also the Biosphere experiment has other issues present as well, including low light and oxygen deprivation. What both experiment showed was that humans do very poorly on a semi-starvation diet with the wrong macro-nutrient ratios. Ancel Keys was trying to emulate the diet of a war-starved country, and the Biosphere through circumstances or bad design or both, turned out the same. I don't see how this relate to your assertion that plant is not food. Unless you are again using your patented Levac technique of inventing definitions and arguing at cross purpose with people because their definition of a term does not match the one you invented.

But when the macro ratio is wrong, i.e. too much plants and too little meat, it is a semi-starvation diet by definition. That's what the two experiments showed us. When we look at the Bellevue experiment, it suddenly becomes clear why they suffered emaciation and neurosis: They didn't eat enough food!

Low light occurs in the North for very long periods on end. It doesn't seem to have affected our Eskimos one bit. Oxygen deprivation occurs high in the mountains. It doesn't seem to affect those populations who live high in the mountains. We adapt to these conditions. What we can't adapt to, is the lack of food.

Take a step back, imagine it's not me that brings you these arguments, but yourself. Now take a step forward, and look at the arguments one more time. But more to the point, nobody has yet to define what food is. It's assumed that food is what it is because we eat it. That definition is not enough. Can you give us just one definition so that the entire goddamn planet can go on with the discussion please?
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  #90   ^
Old Wed, Dec-15-10, 12:32
M Levac M Levac is offline
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Plan: VLC, mostly meat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ubizmo
Does this tell us that the Inuit needed berries or salad to survive? Obviously it doesn't. It does tell us, however, that they took advantage of plant foods available to them, just as human beings everywhere else do.

Again with the unfounded assumption that the Inuit ate plants for nourishment. Stop it already and demonstrate the assumption instead of accepting it blindly. We eat other plants for medicine, does that make them any more food? Not because we eat it that we do so for nourishment.
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