Hi, nocarbkat. Sorry...I just saw your reply this morning. I'm glad to know you did so well for five years. I have been drifting more towards a plant-based diet, despite what I said on this thread, lol. I just prefer the food. I used to think I couldn't eat most carbs because they caused me gastric distress and allergic reactions. For some reason, without animal products, I seem to be doing fine. Maybe it's the combination I can't handle.

I like the "flexitarian" idea. If I may ask another question....if you're only eating meat every so often, what do you eat as the bulk of your diet? I'm only asking because of your user name.

Thanks.

Yeah but they eat so much grain, surely that would undo anything good about not eating eggs and dairy. My brother and his wife are vegans and they eat this meat-substitute that is made out of wheat gluten. Evil!

It's not uncommon for meat allergies to develop in that situation because low stomach acid can lead to a leaky gut. Once proteins start "leaking" from your gut into your bloodstream, you'll tend to accumulate allergies to everything you eat.

I think there's a big difference between lacto-ovo vegetarianism or "flexitarianism" and true veganism. Vitamin B12 is one of the major reasons:. You only need a small amount, so just a little bit of animal foods can be enough for some people, but when you consistently consume none at all, you will slowly deplete your stores. It can take 4 or 5 years for B12 levels to drop low enough to develop symptoms, which is why many people feel great on vegan (and muscle-meat only carnivore) diets for so long. But eventually, it can catch up to you and you can develop pernicious anemia. Pernicious anemia can be very dangerous, because in addition to losing the ability to produce stomach acid, your body can permanently lose the ability to produce intrinsic factor, a digestive chemical needed to absorb B12.

Symptoms of low B12 include fatigue, depression, memory loss, diarrhea, hair loss, and drug and alcohol addiction. This page even says that it can cause an "aversion to meat:"

http://www.health-boundaries-bite.c...2-Symptoms.html

Not every vegan eats a ton of grain and many are gluten-free. I agree with Capmikee that eventually it catches up with you, though, not matter how clean you eat.

Isn't that like generalizing about lowcarbers - that they eat lots of Atkins bars, artificial sweeteners, or nothing but bacon, etc.? I'm sure there are as many vegans as low carbers who know about the evils of gluten. (I just googled "gluten free vegan". Lots of results.)

ETA: I took a phone call in the middle of composing this post and ended up cross-posting with jschwab. So, yeah...what she said!

I just watched Food Inc a couple weeks ago. You're not the first person to make this kind of comment, but to me it doesn't make sense. Food, Inc made me want to be a farmer like Joel Salatin and grow my own meat!

Actually, not quite like Joel Salatin. I thought his ranting about how chickens shouldn't eat chicken was ridiculous. My chickens love chicken, and from watching their behavior, I'm pretty sure they would eat chicken in their "natural state" if there were no human interference at all.

What do they eat if not grain, soy and legumes, some of the worst foods in terms of food intolerances?

That'd leave nuts and vegetables. Yikes! Talk about a limited diet.

I think you would be surprised at what people manage to live on. I know soy and GF vegans. They probably eat alot of nuts and nut butters, etc. We belong to a food coop that has not come into the 21rst century and has no meat. Nearly everyone else who shops there is vegetarian or vegan and there is an infinite variation in their diets. None of them look all that healthy, though.

There's always fruitarianism:

http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t...-t-bio-1a.shtml

i was a vegetarian/vegan for 10 years! i followed mcdougall and fuhrman...i was a total mess! i was anemic, always hungry, psoriasis flared up all the time, bloated, depressed, irritable, tired...my weight was fine for a while because i worked out like a maniac. but once i no longer had the energy to exercise for hours at a time, i gained 30 pounds in about a years time. in essence, i went from lc to vegetarianism and watched my health decline rapidly.

a couple of months ago it hit me...why on earth did i abandon lc? my skin was clear, hair was long and healthy, and my weight was ideal and easy to maintain...so why did i go to the vegan woe? well, i thought it was healthier...boy was i wrong!
someone mentioned cellulite...it's true all of the starches gave me cottage cheese thighs (didn't have that problem before, even after having kids!).

lastly, i just want to you to know that i can only recall two ladies (malva and i can't remember the other lady) besides dr. mcdougall's wife mary that were keeping their weight off. go to the board and see for yourself...most of the people there have been there for years and they are not losing weight and they are not the epitome of health they should be following such a "stellar" diet...it's really quite sad actually.

on mcdougall here's what i'd eat:
b- bowl of oat bran hot cereal loaded with berries and a tbsp. of flax meal
l- a large mixing bowl of salad with 1/2 cup of lentils and diced sweet potato on top (no dressing)
d- falafel, brown rice and more salad

i gained 15 of the 30 pounds i gained eating like this everyday...very sad!

i forgot to add that when i was on the mcdougall boards someone once posed a question similar to yours. they wanted to know why their lc friend looked so much more toned and healthier than them eating high protein (when protein is supposed to be really bad for you). the mcdougall dieter also said that the lc friend worked out less and looked so much better all around than he/she did....

the general response was the lc friend probably looked better on the outside, but on the inside she was most assuredly suffering from a list of ailments due to her woe.

hmmmm...you be the judge of what is best for you. i know what works for me.

good luck!

Well, McDougall is starch-based, so for most people that means white potatoes, sweet potatoes or brown rice.

Wow, Janelle, that certainly is food for thought. Your daily menu sounds pretty typical for McDougall. I can't believe you were so sick and gained weight on it. Not that I don't believe you! It's just shocking and rather disheartening. How long did you low carb before switching to veg?



Now this is interesting, because weight regain reported by so many low carbers is one of the reasons I was looking into the diet in the first place. I keep coming across low carbers who've begun intermittent fasting or calorie counting because they have regained or are regaining the weight they lost.

Sigh.

happylc, i was a vegetarian throughout my teen and young adult years (but i was the kind that ate tons of pasta and grilled cheese). during my first pregnancy, my doc insisted that i eat meat due to my anemia, so for the sake of my child i did just that. but i also kept eating the carby junk, so i gained over 60 pounds during my pregnancy. what's worse is that i only lost 20 right away. i kept that weight for a year, then decided to try low carb (south beach). i lost all of the weight within a few months, it was like magic! about a year after that i jumped back on the vegetarian/vegan bandwagon which eventually led me to mcdougall and furman...and the rest is history.

earlier this year i went to my doc frustrated that i had gained so much weight. and in spite of my vegan diet and extreme exercise, i was just getting bigger and bigger. my doc told me to 86 the oatmeal/oat bran and eat eggs instead. i was hesitant at first, but in april i decided that i didn't have anything to lose by giving lc another try, so here i am...lc worked for me, but i thought it wasn't good enough so i chased other ways of eating...i should have left well enough alone.

listen to your body...do what works for you...a plant based diet might suit you just fine. there is no one size fits all plan. i just wanted to share what happened to me.

i have my own theories on why lc is no longer working for some people, but i don't want to start any drama, so i'll keep it to myself ;P.

best wishes to you!

Thanks for posting that. I've been to that site before, but I've never read that testimonial before. I read it from beginning to end. Very interesting. It's so weird about that period of "lightness" or well-being he describes. As others have mentioned, a lot of vegans talk about it. Of course it's short lived, but I also have that feeling when I give up something. In a weird way, I think it's like being addicted to giving up addictions (or vices). It's different than the energy surge that you feel with ketosis. It's almost like self-denial brings it on. It's not always a bad thing. I got it when I gave ups smoking, and I have it now that I've given up caffeine. I was joking with my husband that I am running out of things to give up.

It might be a brain chemical thing. Like an opiate. TBH, I never got it when I was vegan.