EMT, you said...

"This goes back a few messages...but I did review the "fats that heal..." book and it confirmed what I understand to be true...that it is the hydrogenation process- not high temp alone- that creates trans fat. Cooking oils are not hydrogenated unless they are made into a spread-type product. Just wanted to clarify that so that we dont confuse anyone into thinking that cooking oils are "bad"."

Not true. I quote Udo Erasmus, "Fats that Kill, Fats that Heal" Chapter 16 From Seed to Oil pp96-97:

"Deodorization takes place at a destructively high temperature - 240 to 270C (464 to 518F) - for 30 to 60 minutes. When heated to temperatures above 150C (302F), unsaturated fatty acids become mutagenic, which means that they can damage our genes (and those of our offspring). Above 160C (320F), trans fatty acids begin to form. Above 200C (392F), trans-fatty acids form in substantial quantities. Above 220C, the rate of trans-fatty acid production increases exponentially."

This quote is in the context of the process of simply processing seeds to regaulr supermarket cooking oil. Nothing to do with hydrogenation, (although of course hydrogenation does of course also create trans fatty acids)

Just wanted to clarify that so that we don't confuse anyone into thinking that cooking oils are OK.

Here's another book on fats recommended to me by a friend of mine.

Know Your Fats by Mary G. Enig.

From what you write based on the book, about good and bad fats, we can not use cold pressed olive oil in sauteeing? Even if the temperature is not at the so called smoking point?
Does this mean any heating of my cold pressed olive oil, reduces it to garbage?
This does not go with the idea that the reason Meditterainean peoples have less problem with fats is because they use olive oils.
Certainly those peoples plus my ancestors fried many foods ie; eggplant, special pastries,chicken, pan fried steak, and the wonderful meatball etc.

Jujubaby
No, it does not mean that. Firstly, I wanted to correct the misleading impression from a poster that Udo Erasmus (the leading scientist on the science of fats) was of the opinion that supermarket cooking oils were quite healthy. They are not for the reason I quoted from his book.

Don't forget that cold pressed olive oil has not been de-odorised at high heat and therefore has not yet been chemically changed to include trans fats.

You are spot on in that the smoking point is the critical heat level above which trans fats begin to form (according to Erasmus). The smoking point of various different oils are different eg Olive oil has a smoke point of 190C, but Flax oil is only 112C.

I am no cook or scientist (I am a better researcher!), but it seems that sauteeing in olive oil is fine as long as the temp does not go too high ie above 190C. Does olive oil go over 190C to sautee? I don't know.

Does that make sense? I am absolutely with you on the Mediterranean diet and use of olive oil and lack of CHD etc etc. Question is, do the Mediterraneans cook with olive oil over the smoking point?

Hi Alecmcg:

thanks for the clarification. I really do not know if the mediterranean peoples cook past the smoking point or not. But I do know from when I was a child, my mom, although born here in the US, made wonderful fried pastries called Zepelins. {something between a New Orleans Benget and a donut}
She did them mainly at Christmas times and other Holidays, much like the Jewish families,Greeks and Italians.

We ate them with drizzeled honey or powdered sugar. Now I know to get them to a golden brown the oil had to be hot. But I also know if it got to the smoking point she threw out the oil.

It is interesting to note that commercial food establishments save any cooking oil for future use. Some may clarify it by straining left over food particals and burnt or dark pieces out of the oil, but save it to use they most certainly did.

So the question is, is the American public at risk everyday especially the kids?

I'm sure I'm much older than you and we got away from cooking like mom during the beginning of low fat and no fat in our foods. So I'm beginning to go back to how mom cooked and one of my favorite simple peasant food is:

escarol cut into bite size pieces;
thrown into sautee pan of extra olive oil, slightly cooking chopped garlic cloves,

toss till leaves glisten with oil and start to wilt;
add one can of lightly salted chicken stock
add one can of garbazo beans;
simmer and serve with grated parmesan cheese.
You didn't ask for a receipe but it came to my mind thinking about mom.

alecmcq
Thanks for the info...I did not buy Udo's book, so I stand corrected if what you state is true. But again, if it is in fact true, cooking oil would only be problematic if used for frying or high-heat baking, no? I dont know how familiar you are with fats outside of this book's reference, but wouldn't that make canola oil "bad" also? Or are you saying it depends on the processing? I clearly need to read up on this topic more, but appreciate any more info anyone has on the topic.

EMT

Sorry for delay in replying, I have been working 16 hour days!!

I know a bit about this because I used to work for a cooking oil manufacturer and I also have researched this stuff a lot due to my very high (404 initially!!) cholesterol level. This is kinda motivating, as the Dr basically said "Change what you eat or die", and he then told me to dramatically reduce my fat intake (and we all know what happens when you do that!). So I read lots and have ended up here.

Any commercial cooking oil that has gone through the de-oderising process (ie almost 100% of them) has had a chemical change made to them: they have had a huge increase in trans fatty acids. This chemical change remains when the oil is then cooled for bottling etc. They are not safe for any use for those of us with high cholesterol.

Yes, this does include canola oil and almost all the supposedly "good" cooking oils.

How do you solve this? Use fresh cold pressed oils from the health food store and do not take them above the smoking point. I have even seen some cold pressed oils being sold in my supermarket (maybe somebody there is getting the message!). You can usually tell if the oil is OK if it is sold in a dark bottle. Light breaks down some of the good qualities of cold pressed oils and they don't keep too long, so they are bottled in dark/black bottles and given a short shelf life. I keep mine in the fridge and have a clearout every now and then.

Cold pressed Extra Virgin Olive Oil is different. There is something about olive oil that makes it less susceptible to light, and it is therefore OK in a clear bottle. But only cold pressed extra virgin will do.

If you want to know all there is to know on this, do go and buy Erasmus and read him. It is the most important book on the subject and EVERY person who has a cholesterol problem should read this book.

Erasmus is not a quack. He is the officially recognised world leader in chemical research on fats and oils. He just has results and views that make the fats and oils industry very angry because all of their processing is shown to be very unhealthy. Therefore you rarely get to hear about him. If he was saying that cooking oils were really healthy, his name would be on every bottle!

Having said that, it is us, the consumers, that have asked the commercial manufacturers of oils to do all this processing. We buy the clear oil without the smell, and funnily enough they make more of what we buy!

I hope you find out all you can on this subject. It is one of the two most critical factors in cholesterol control (the other is about sugar and Triglycerides, but I hope we all know this on this site!! :-))

Take care out there. There are lots of traps for players without the information.

Hi you guys!!
Thanks for the information about the cooking ils and irst pressed olive oil. I knew that oil could spoil from the light and that's why most good oils come in dark bottles. I have switched to "Premium first pressed extra virgin olive oil" and call it my medicine, when I put it in salads or the saute pan .

When I was a child, during the big war, butter was impossible to get and some one perpetrated the first evil thing on us at that time. Margarine!! It came in a plastic bag and you had to color it yourself by schwooshing it between your fingers while still in the bag of course!

I have a question, when the doctor said to change what you eat, may I ask what were you eating?

I recently purchased Dr. Schwarzbein's principle and cookbook. IT's only a short time and I'm on the "healing " phase, but don't know when that is over and what to do next?

I see by your stats that you did very well on your choozen program. May I ask again what you have been doing? It nice to see some one successful. But because i have some physical problems, I think I have to do a low carb AND the dreeded lower calorie thing, because the scale doesnot move downward. I shouldn't say that it doesn't move, it just fluctates just when I think I lost a pound or two.

Alecmcq
Thank you so much for your detailed explanation...I found the information very useful. One of the reasons I did not buy Erasmus' book was b/c the one at the bookstore was from 1992...do you know if there is a more current edition or some other current references out there as well?
I admire you for taking the initiative to learn so much about your health!

alecmcq, what are some brand names of cold pressed oils that are good for cooking?

Thanks,
Mark

Alecmcq
Just wanted to let you know I found (and ordered) a copy of Erasmus' book from 1999...just wanted to let you know so you don't have to bother answering my last question.

Just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents. I haven't read Dr. Ersmus' book (and probably won't -- 199 chapters on fat and oils seems a bit much to me ), but when I read my low-carb "bible," The Schwarzbein Principle, I took to heart what Dr. S. said.

She said that 1) you should use only cold pressed oils, but that 2) you should not use polyunsaturated oils for cooking because they break down much easier and at lower temperatures to have trans fats.

Luckily, I've never really liked or used oils other than butter and olive oil, both of which do not break down easily in cooking. And my favorite olive oil is not only cold pressed, but unfiltered. It has lots more of the antioxidants that are so good for us and tastes wonderful! And it even has a longer "shelf life."

;-Deb

Clarified butter (ghee) and rendered animal fat (chicken and pork esp.) are wonderful for cooking They don't become altered into harmful transfats when heated, and have a high smoking point, which makes them suitable for quick, higher-heat cooking, such as a stir-fry.

Accordiing to fitday (ie, the USDA), chicken fat is 45% monounsaturate, 30% saturate, and 21% polyunsaturate. Pork fat (pure lard) is 45% monounsaturate, 39% saturate and only 11% poly. For reference, canola oil is 30% polys.

Doreen

Hello again
According to the the USDA nutrient database, 1 tbs of Canola oil has 1 gram sat fat, 4 g poly and 8.3 g of monos. Based on this discussion, I guess this would not be such a favorable fat to cook with b/c of the polys? Since I normally cook with canola or olive oil, this news is pretty disappointing to me. I would not use animal fat to cook with, so would anyone suggest that it is best to use cold pressed extra virgin olive oil to cook with providing you do not reach the smoke point?
Also, do you think using animal fat, with a high percent of sat fat is better than these oils?
Thanks

hi EMT,

I used canola oil as a comparison for the polyunsaturate content of chicken and pork fat, not to suggest that it's a "bad" fat.

Do I think saturated fats are good fat choices? Yes I do! It's a myth that saturated fat causes clogged arteries and makes cholesterol levels skyrocket. In fact, saturated fat is necessary for good health. You might wish to check out the following article, Facing the Facts About Saturated Fats, Heart Disease and Cancer by Stephen Byrnes, ND, RNCP.

And there's the fact that, like butter, they do not turn into harmful transfats when you cook with them

Doreen