Well I'm certainly no expert - but that serious a jump surely shouts 'thyroid' to me more than any other reason. Certainly this WOE doesn't do anything like that. When I first strictly low-carbed a dozen years ago (and when my thyroid was more normal) my TC went from 200 to 180. That's much more typical of eating LC it seems.

Merpig, if you hear hoof clops in Central Park, look for a horse first and not a zebra. I see there is a debate going on here but I think you should start at your lowest common denominator, or you will be VERY, VERY overwhelmed. You're getting all this advice on details of other people figuring out what worked for them, but that will just have you chasing every possible treatment, trying it for two days and then jumping along to the next...That's no good.

I agree with finding a doctor who will do more tests. Personally I'm calling my doctor's office today and asking for an appointment with an endocrinologist. Again, starting from Base One. My doctor is limited in what she can and is willing to do. I am on Synthroid, 50mcg and have seen improvement but am still so tired. Do I need more Synthroid? Porcine gland? Natura-Sooper-Dooper-T1000? I don't know. So I feel it's better to start at the beginning.

Just because moose droppings in a titration of bat spittle worked for .05% of the population doesn't mean I should automatically jump for that one first. KWIM?

Don't be disheartened. Figuring out a protocol for hypothyroid is in fact a series of trials and errors for many people. Everyone is so individual. You may just need more of what you're getting...You may need something different entirely. But don't be put off by the fact that this trial didn't work for you 100%. I know it's a pain, but hey, it's an autoimmune disease (I assume--is yours caused by Hashi's?). They are notoriously a big of a tightwire walk to figure out.

Hang in there. Something WILL work for you.

ROFL, this gave me the best laugh of my day so far. Thanks, I needed that.


Yes I have Hashi's. My doctor prescribed 50mcg Levoxyl (one of the other T4 synthetics) but this is only my 4th day taking it, so obviously too early to tell if it's doing anything or not. The doctor says it can take weeks and weeks to see anything, and she wants to repeat blood tests in 8 weeks. At this point I think I'll just ride the horse and see what happens. I mean the doctor is pretty positive I'll need more than 50mcg before I reach an optimal dose. So guess I will give this a try before I try lassoing zebras.

Luckily I don't feel *that* bad - a little tired but still enough energy to get through my days at work and my choir and art lessons in the evening. But I'd love to see my high blood pressure resolve with the correct medicine, and maybe a drop in my cholesterol too - though mine is not excessively high. But higher than it was when I lowe carbed a dozen years ago, by about 50 points for the total!

LOL!!!! I'm still looking for the horse so I'll let you know if I spot him.

Just put in a call to my dr.'s office to ask for an endo referral.

One thing that has not really been addressed here is that all thyroid meds will NOT work and will simply pool in the cells if the adrenals are not up to par. This has horrible consequences where patients are told they must stay on low doses to prevent going hyper. The real problem is that their adrenals cannot produce enough cortisol to get the thyroid hormones to the cells. Thus if they take more thyroid they go hyper. Not good.

Also, regarding people taking T4 only meds and doing well, I know four people on T4 only meds and only one of them is doing well.

My BIL: Still battling weight despite eating well, still tired, still always too hot or too cold

BIL's father: Horrifically high BP and blood pressure not relieved even by BP meds

My friend: Still very much overweight, dry hair, dry skin, severe fatigue, high cholesterol, constipation - you name a thyroid symtom, she has it.

Cousin: Don't know her very well, but she says she feels good. However, I see her like once every few years, so for all I know she could be battling with high cholesterol, dry skin, dry hair etc.

You know, I'm not pooh-poohing the adrenal thing, but the advice I seen on adrenal is all over the place. I'm kind of wondering if there actually is a treatment for adrenals and how would you even test to see if they need fixin'? And where would you find a doctor that knew anything about it?

I went chasing after this for awhile but it didn't really seem to change anything for me and the advice I saw was pretty off the wall and changed radically depending on what web site you looked at. Crazy confusing stuff like that makes me think these people are pulling this info out of their hats, or asses, take your pick. I was just left with the feeling that pursing this would just cure fat-wallet syndrome.

Hiya Nancy

The adrenals are tested via salivary testing at any of the labs mentioned here. The test reveals whether your adrenals are over or under producing cortisol. Neither situation is good for the thyroid. If you want a doctor that gets it, I can pm you a list of doctors in your area. These doctors are knowledgeable about the adrenals, the thyroid and its interaction with ferritin, B12 etc.

You can find more info on the adrenals and the thyroid here.

There is a wealth of info on the adrenals at:
http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/grou...rmonesADRENALS/

You might like this interview also:
http://www.thyroid-info.com/articles/shamesadrenal.htm

Good books that talk about the adrenals and the thyroids:
Stop The Thyroid Madness - Janie Bowthorpe
Your Thyroid and How To keep It Healthy - Dr. Barry Durant-Peatfield
Hypothyroidism Type 2 – Dr. Mark Starr

Dr. Lowe and Dr. Lam both write a lot about the adrenals and the thyroid also.

From a post I wrote in someone else's journal:

"Most hypothyroid people have weak adrenals because:

1) 95% of doctors (even endos who are supposed to know all about hormones) know nada about the thyroid. They only know about one type of low thyroid function and are obsessed with this one test called the TSH test. The TSH is not even a thyroid test! TSH is a pituitary hormone, so it is a pituitary test. So, due to this crappy test most of us are hypo for years and years before diagnosis. Our adrenals have to kick in big time to help us and thus get weak from years of fighting.

AND

2) Many people with autoimmune hypothyroidism have gone through a major stress. The stress caused their body to start attacking their thyroid. Stress is of course a killer for the adrenals.

Anyway, when I first went to a doctor in Ireland (he was okay but I have since moved on to a much better doc), he said that my symptoms indicated that my adrenals were weak. He then sent me away for an adrenal saliva test index which measured my cortisol output at different times of the day. The results came back very low and so he put me on natural adrenal supplements. You can buy them OTC or online and they have names like Adrenal Stress End or Dynamite Adrenal. Many people also purchase raw adrenal cortex tablets from Nutrimeds. Finally, there is an OTC product called Isocort which is basically a weak version of cortisol.

I did not do well with them. I added a tiny dose of thyroid (and I do mean tiny, 15mg) and my body went crazy with skin crawling sensations, palpitations and other fun stuff. So, we quickly realised that I needed to treat my adrenals with replacement hormones.

Most hypo patients do not do well with the above natural products sadly. Our adrenals are just too far gone, so we are put on replacement hormones for a period of time. We take LOW DOSE hydrocortisone to rest our adrenals, allow our body to use the cortisol to get the thyroid to the cells and basically de-tress our adrenals. Then, we wean off once our bodies have had a rest of one year or two.

If our pituitary gland is damaged (a significant cause of hypothyroidism and being low in hormones in general) however, we need to replace hormones for life.

We take physiological doses of HC, not pharmacological doses. This is a crucial point to understand. A physiological dose of something simply replaces what the body should make; it mimics normal physiology. Pharmacological doses on the other hand far exceed natural production and do not mimic normal physiology.

So, I take my low dose HC daily. I supp with sea salt. All adrenally challenged patients should supp with 1/4 to 1/2 teaspoon unrefined sea salt in water twice a day. I take magnesium to bowel tolerance. I was not a big caffeine head anyway. I actually drank decaf tea only for years and years. I have one cup of caffeinated tea in the morning, but that is it. I don't do cardio or other strenuous exercise. In fact, I quit the gym for the first six months of my treatment in order to rest my adrenals. I was not happy about that at all! Alcohol is not my vice so I am okay with that. As for my sleep, it used to be a real problem for me, but low dose melatonin has cured my issues with falling asleep.

Regarding the adrenals basic care here is a link
to what us thyroid patients are told to do to baby our adrenals, whether we are on HC or not.

I do like Wilson’s book on adrenal fatigue. However, to learn more about low dose HC and the adrenals Jeffries’s book is the one to order. You can order it cheaply from the publisher's website. If you order it from Amazon or anywhere else it will cost about $200 plus".

There is so much information on the thyroid and adrenals that you might feel overwhelmed. I know I did! It took me a good two months to take it all in.

Yeah, I've seen Dr. Lowe's web site and Dr. Lam's. In fact, I used to talk with someone that consulted with Dr. Lowe and they were pretty unhappy with the treatment they got.

Sure, PM me a list of doctor's in my area. I suppose I should attempt to do this with a doctor's assistance. Maybe my skepticism can be cured too. I live in San Diego, CA. You can PM them or post them in my journal if you wish.

Dr. Lowe's rep has kinda been damaged in recent times yep!

TBH: I thought the adrenal thing was not a problem for me until I epxerienced directly my inability to handle ANY thyroid med. With all the antibodies and the super low Free T3 I had, I would have thought my body would have been happy to get some badly needed thyroid hormones, but nope!

I shall pm you in a few days, as I am off to see my doctor in Belgium tomorrow, so won't have much Internet access till Wednesday.

Scarlet, to your very excellent posts in this thread, and the adrenal advice (spot on), let me add that your ferritin level has to be in good shape as well, which would be between 70 - 90.

It may be a pain in the you-know-what to find a doctor to order the tests for you, but you really can't start any treatment that will work without those results first.

Lisa

Yep! Mine was 49 so I had to supp iron to get it up. And as for the doctor shopping.... I could write a book about clueless doctors!

Scarlet, I would be glad if you could pm me some doctors/Endo's in Ireland who do "have a clue". They're not easy to find, as you say, and as I've found out.

Thanks,
Amergin

"Abstract Type I 5′-deiodinase was recently characterized as a selenocysteine-containing enzyme in humans and other mammals. Up to now, the effect of selenium (Se) supplementation on thyroid hormone metabolism in humans has only been reported in the very peculiar nutritional environment of Central Africa, where combined severe iodine and Se deficiency occurs. In this study, a group of phenylketonuria subjects with a low selenium status, but a normal iodine intake were supplemented with selenium to investigate changes in their thyroid hormone metabolism. After 3 wk of selenium supplementation (1 μg/kg/d), both the concentrations of the prohormone thyroxine (T4) and the metabolic inactive reverse triiodothyronine (rT3) decreased significantly. Clinically, the phenylketonuria subjects remained euthyroid before and after selenium supplementation. The individual changes of plasma Se and glutathione peroxidase activity were closely associated with individual changes of plasma T4 and rT3."

I am so new to this discussion that I am not sure I understand the above abstract. Could someone more knowledgable help? Does this suggest that selenium supplementation could help hypothyroid, at least if in the early, mild stages? Or is the reduction in T4 a bad thing?

Phenylketonuria is where you can't break down an amino acid called phenylalanine, which is what that warning on aspartame is about. Not sure what clinical relevance it has on the findings as it might pertain to normal folks.

You can get toxic levels of selenium so don't go crazy if you do take it as a supplement.

Does anyone know where rT3 is created? Is it the thyroid only? I don't have a functioning thyroid.