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  #61   ^
Old Sun, Apr-19-09, 12:29
lil' annie lil' annie is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,276
 
Plan: quasi paleo + starch
Stats: 153/148/118 Female 5'4"
BF:
Progress: 14%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by articshark
Ummm you are --- promoting Barry Groves. It is in all the OD threads.

And maybe no one else wants to. And as some one said in another thread, they are, perhaps, not identical. In much the same way as Atkins is different from South Beach from Protein Power from CAD from Sonoma from --- insert low carb program of your choice here. Similar principles, different plans.



I was informed in another messagethread that B.Groves suggests only 60 percent fat, whereas Dr. Kwasniewski is far higher, up to 80 percent.

Anyway, these messagethreads have absolutely nothing to do with his original diet, and I am interested in HIS diet plan, not this weird, "We'll Give Ourselves Credibility" by STEALING his name, and then presenting a diet of our own imagination.
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  #62   ^
Old Sun, Apr-19-09, 12:33
awriter's Avatar
awriter awriter is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 1,096
 
Plan: Kwasniewski Ratios
Stats: 225/158/145 Female 65
BF:53%/24%/20%
Progress: 84%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lil' annie
Lisa... isn't it possible, as you mentioned in 2 different threads on the first day, that this Optimal Diet when followed according to the original instructions is not merely a high pork & dairy fat diet, but that more importantly, it is extremely LOW fructose --- and therefore, people who are 'tweaking' the plan to their liking must be certain to make LOW fructose, LOW fructan choices when they change things?

Annie, there must have been a misunderstanding of what I wrote. I was astounded that forty years ago someone was able to somehow intuit the research that is just surfacing - that it may be excess fructose intake rather than excess glucose intake -- in the presence of high fat and high protein -- that is the main cause of insulin resistance for many people.

However, the key for me is excess, not the substance itself. If that were the case than Atkins would never work for anyone. Nor PP, nor South Beach, etc. But they do, even if they don't work for everyone, or for some people forever. Though I do agree that just as there are some people who are gluten or dairy intolerant, or protein intolerant, etc. there are also people who may well be fructose intolerant. I looked up the symptoms for that, and I don't have a single one of them.

I have begun to add a few more carbs in the form of starchy veg -- like white potato -- to my low protein diet, to no ill effect. But I also continue to eat limited amounts of fructose -- like berries, to no ill effect. I've lost a ton of weight eating fructose, in limited amounts, and will continue to do so. And fruit is allowed on the OD, in limited amounts. For me, the word 'limited' is really the key to handling fructose.

As for what makes K's OD work for those of us who did lose weight on Atkins, etc. -- and then screeched to a halt despite anything we did -- I believe it is the protein reduction and the higher fat intake. And Dr. K's ratios are different than Groves'. He says you should eat a gram of protein for every pound of lean body mass. A person who weighs 250 pounds might have a lean body mass of 200 pounds. Or 125 pounds if they have a BMI of 50%. That's 125g-200g protein per day. Nowhere near OD limits, which are based on ideal body weight, not what a person weighs now.

Lisa
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  #63   ^
Old Sun, Apr-19-09, 14:29
Sagehill Sagehill is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 14,245
 
Plan: 8am-2pm IF, Dr. Fung
Stats: 250/176.4/150 Female 5'3"
BF:
Progress: 74%
Location: Central FL
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Well, I don't know, Annie.... I've heard/read about Dr. K's plan for several years now, and in several places besides here (including the Aussie and Hyperlipid sites, among others), and it never really caught my interest... until recently when everyone started talking about how to adapt this regimen (I hate the word "diet") to make it more livable for certain North Americans who for various reasons are more restricted as far as cultural tastes go.

Anyway, these relatively minor modifications really aren't much different than the relatively minor mods that everyone all over this board makes to Atkins or PP, or Paleolithic/Neanderthin, or South Beach, in order to make those regimens work for them.

If we can get Dr. K's plan to work for us by dipping our toes in, so to speak, why not? Besides, quite often once people have been introduced, they tend to go on and study and follow the plan in more detail. Small steps, small steps....

Not really worth getting enraged about, anyway.
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  #64   ^
Old Sun, Apr-19-09, 14:37
Valtor's Avatar
Valtor Valtor is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,035
 
Plan: VLC 4 days a week
Stats: 337/258/200 Male 6' 1"
BF:
Progress: 58%
Location: Québec, Canada
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I agree, I think we can get Dr K's info on the net. The forums here, is the place where we exchange our tweaks. Where will we do it, if not here? Even on the Atkins threads, you'll see lots of tweaks. I think it's just normal on forums. I'm here for those anecdotes, experiment and tweaks.

Patrick
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  #65   ^
Old Sun, Apr-19-09, 15:38
bike2work bike2work is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,536
 
Plan: Fung-inspired fasting
Stats: 336/000/160 Female 5' 9"
BF:
Progress: 191%
Location: Seattle metro area
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Quote:
Originally Posted by awriter
And Dr. K's ratios are different than Groves'. He says you should eat a gram of protein for every pound of lean body mass.

Lisa

Nope. I have the book in front of me. Groves says 1 - 1.5 gm. protein for each kilo of lean body mass. That's for each 2.2 lbs. of lean body mass. In your example of someone with a lean body mass of 200 lbs. (very few people have a lean body mass of 200 lbs! unrealistic example!), it would be 91 - 136 gms protein. But again, a rare few people have 200 pounds of lean body mass, that applies to almost no one. A person with 105 pounds of lean body mass (150 pound person with 30% body fat) would eat 48 - 71 gm. protein.

His macronutrient ratios are:

carbs: 10 - 15% of calories
protein: 15 - 25%
fat: 60 - 70%
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  #66   ^
Old Sun, Apr-19-09, 16:16
awriter's Avatar
awriter awriter is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 1,096
 
Plan: Kwasniewski Ratios
Stats: 225/158/145 Female 65
BF:53%/24%/20%
Progress: 84%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bike2work
I have the book in front of me. Groves says 1 - 1.5 gm. protein for each kilo of lean body mass.

You are quite right, Allison. Thank you so much for the correction. I meant to type kilos but I still think in pounds. My bad.

Quote:
is macronutrient ratios are:

carbs: 10 - 15% of calories
protein: 15 - 25%
fat: 60 - 70%


I repeat - K uses ideal weight for protein allotment. Groves uses current lean body mass for protein allotment. Different amounts, different plans. Both are right for somebody, and not right for everybody. All depends on your protein issues. Although I'm still overweight, I have so much muscle that my lean body mass makes it impossible to use Groves' calculations. Too bloody much protein for me to handle - and not enough fat for my needs. I eat 80% fat a day, and only 10% protein, for example -- as per Dr. K.

Lisa
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  #67   ^
Old Sun, Apr-19-09, 18:02
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is online now
Experimenter
Posts: 45,309
 
Plan: Paleo 99.5%
Stats: 210/170/160 Female 67.5"
BF:
Progress: 80%
Location: San Diego, CA
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Well poop, now I'm having a hard time getting my min protein in! LOL! Last week it was the opposite problem.
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  #68   ^
Old Sun, Apr-19-09, 18:56
Merpig's Avatar
Merpig Merpig is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,163
 
Plan: IF/Fung IDM/Potato Hack?
Stats: 375/272.6/175 Female 66 inches
BF:
Progress: 51%
Location: NE Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy LC
Well poop, now I'm having a hard time getting my min protein in! LOL! Last week it was the opposite problem.


Well I'm finding it *much* easier to keep to my protein limits now that my appetite has abated. Those first few days I was hungry *all the time*, just about in tears from the hunger. And the fat didn't seem to satiate me in the same way the protein did.

But the last couple days have been fine from an appetite standpoint Didn't have enough eggs today but I was a bit bored with eggs. But I did pretty well with the numbers today;

Breakfast:
a slice of my Optimum nutbread.
melted a little butter with SF Davinci syrup and drizzled it over the bread, and topped it with some whipped cream. It was like dessert for breakfast

Lunch:
about 3 oz of my homemade chicken liver pate on several of my flaxseed/quinoa/brown rice crackers

Dinner:
3 oz ground beef sauteed in some bacon drippings with some chopped walnuts and fresh garlic, with added curry powder. Served with 1/2 avocado mashed with a little lemon juice and sea salt, and a side of a small nut muffin with butter.

That worked out to:
Me (and my ON range numbers)
Fat: 210g (155-219g)
Net Carb: 39g (39-52g)
Protein: 54g (52-64g)

So I hit my numbers again two days in a row, though my fat always seems to be on the high end of my range. What can I say? I love fat.
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  #69   ^
Old Sun, Apr-19-09, 19:12
deirdra's Avatar
deirdra deirdra is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 3,871
 
Plan: HF/vLC/GF,CF,SF
Stats: 197/136/150 Female 66 inches
BF:
Progress: 130%
Location: Alberta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merpig
liver pate on several of my flaxseed/quinoa/brown rice crackers
Were these crackers homemade? If so, what's the recipe. I love paté, but putting it on celery or cucumber rounds just doesn't cut it!
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  #70   ^
Old Sun, Apr-19-09, 19:36
OregonRose's Avatar
OregonRose OregonRose is offline
Wag more, bark less.
Posts: 692
 
Plan: Meat.
Stats: 216/149/145 Female 65.5 inches
BF:
Progress: 94%
Location: Eugene
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The biggest thing that's changed in my daily eating pattern so far is the amount of meat & eggs I'm downing. I used to eat two whole fried eggs and a large-ish sausage patty for breakfast, one or two McDoubles (plain, and toss the bun) for lunch, and a large chunk of meat/fish/poultry for dinner, plus (before I tried to cut dairy) a few ounces of cheese throughout the day. For the past week, my meals have looked more like this:

Breakfast most days this week:

--2 egg yolks fried in butter (haven't figured out yet how to use the whites--I'm sure my dog has a suggestion )
--a tiny (around half an ounce raw) patty of sausage fried in lard.
--coffee with heavy whipping cream (LOTS of both)

Snack:
--Wasa bread, 1 slice (this feels sooo weird after two years of strict LC) slathered with cream cheese.

Lunch:
--2 oz havarti
--Or, if I'm having a low-protein dinner, one McDouble, plain, no bun.

Dinner: Depends on how much protein I had at lunch. Dinners I've had this week include:

--Ham, three to four ounces, with a hunk of brie cheese and a small mound of mashed potatoes (left over from Easter dinner) with butter;

--Two hard-boiled eggs with mayonnaise, a couple of pickles, and a slice of no-wheat pumpernickel with liverwurst;

--A bowl of kale and meatball (pork & beef) soup;

--Sushi--with the rice! (Oh, man oh man; it was wonderful...) One of the items was fish roe with horseradish cream sauce. Yum!

**************

I'm sure this sounds like an awfully dull menu to some folks, but it's keeping me pretty satisfied. Most of my dinners this week have been more or less buffet-style, as in a plate of deli meats and cheeses and pickles, along with a WASA cracker or a slice of dark, dense rye pumpernickel.

Around the middle of the week I realized that this was the way my relatives in (the former) East Germany ate when we visited them in the 1970s. Boiled eggs and maybe a bit of bread for breakfast. A buffet-style "lunch" (Mittagessen) with jellied meats/fish, dark bread, cheeses, various pickles/condiments, and obscure (to me) German charcuterie. A light dinner of a broth and potatoes, or maybe a chunky vegetable salad (I remember WAY too many peas for my picky, little-girl palate!) with some cheese. It was fairly rare to have what we Americans think of a standard dinner plate with a slab of meat and sides of starch & veggies, followed by dessert. Those kinds of meals were, as I recall, for special occasions, and usually happened at restaurants.

Remembering all this has made me eager to read Kwasniewski's books. I'll bet some of the menus will look familiar. (I've ordered Optimal Nutrition; hope it doesn't take forever to get here.)
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  #71   ^
Old Sun, Apr-19-09, 19:40
Merpig's Avatar
Merpig Merpig is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,163
 
Plan: IF/Fung IDM/Potato Hack?
Stats: 375/272.6/175 Female 66 inches
BF:
Progress: 51%
Location: NE Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deirdra
Were these crackers homemade? If so, what's the recipe. I love paté, but putting it on celery or cucumber rounds just doesn't cut it!


No, they are these crackers:
http://www.marysgonecrackers.com/pr...p?products_id=1

I buy them just in my local supermarket. They really are pretty tasty and have a nice crispy crunch to them. The serving size listed, which has 18 net carbs, is for 13 crackers, and I find that usually about 6 is plenty to go with my pate.

The herb-flavored ones are really good too, but I usually buy the plain as that way I can use them for some almond butter as well!
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  #72   ^
Old Mon, Apr-20-09, 08:12
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is online now
Experimenter
Posts: 45,309
 
Plan: Paleo 99.5%
Stats: 210/170/160 Female 67.5"
BF:
Progress: 80%
Location: San Diego, CA
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I'm linking this recipe because it'd be a great one to eat if you needed a bump to your fat content: http://www.lowcarb.ca/karen/recipe016.html

It's Karen Barnaby's Panna Cotta. And it is delish! I use vanilla extract instead of a bean.
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  #73   ^
Old Mon, Apr-20-09, 09:11
capmikee's Avatar
capmikee capmikee is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 5,160
 
Plan: Weston A. Price, GFCF
Stats: 165/133/132 Male 5' 5"
BF:?/12.7%/?
Progress: 97%
Location: Philadelphia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OregonRose
--2 egg yolks fried in butter (haven't figured out yet how to use the whites--I'm sure my dog has a suggestion )

Is it hard to fry just yolks without breaking them? Sometimes I fry a whole egg and just eat the yolk, but I haven't really tried separating them first. How well do you cook your yolks?

I keep a jar in the fridge for egg whites - whenever I separate an egg, the white goes in there. When it starts to get full (or when they need more food), I fry up the whole batch and give it to my chickens. You could probably do the same for your dog.

Occasionally, someone will want to use some egg whites as a binder or make a meringue-type thing. There's always egg whites available if they want to.
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  #74   ^
Old Mon, Apr-20-09, 09:21
OregonRose's Avatar
OregonRose OregonRose is offline
Wag more, bark less.
Posts: 692
 
Plan: Meat.
Stats: 216/149/145 Female 65.5 inches
BF:
Progress: 94%
Location: Eugene
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capmikee
Is it hard to fry just yolks without breaking them? Sometimes I fry a whole egg and just eat the yolk, but I haven't really tried separating them first. How well do you cook your yolks?


It's not hard to fry them alone, but I did discover that it helps to put them in a small bowl first, and then slip them into the hot grease. If I go directly from the broken shell to the level frying pan, they catch on the shell's jagged edge (you hold the bowl up nice and close to the eggshell and gently tip the eggshell toward it--no sharp angles). I fry them for about 20 seconds on each side--just enough to warm them up and get a skin.

My dog ended up getting the raw whites--he loved 'em. (Bleh--I could never get over their mucous-y texture to eat them raw ).

Last edited by OregonRose : Mon, Apr-20-09 at 09:30.
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  #75   ^
Old Mon, Apr-20-09, 10:02
awriter's Avatar
awriter awriter is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 1,096
 
Plan: Kwasniewski Ratios
Stats: 225/158/145 Female 65
BF:53%/24%/20%
Progress: 84%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capmikee
Is it hard to fry just yolks without breaking them? Sometimes I fry a whole egg and just eat the yolk, but I haven't really tried separating them first. How well do you cook your yolks?

The best way I've discovered to do this is to use 1 whole egg to 2 more yolks. First, I heat up the pan and melt the butter (and lots of it). When the butter sizzles I remove the pan to the counter nearest the sink. I slip in the first whole egg after tapping it in the sink -- not on the edge of the pan. Then I crack the second, let the whites go into the sink (I've stopped collecting them since I can't eat them, I have no chickens, and the pooch began to gain weight when I fed them to her!), and slip the yolk ON TOP of what is now an egg white raft in the pan. Ditto with the second yolk.

By doing it this way, none of the yolks get stuck in the pan or break, and the entire thing slides right out on my plate. I cook them with the cover on over low heat until the white is just set, and the yolks barely cooked. I pour the excess butter over them, eat with a spoon, and 'clean' the plate with a small, thin slice of whole wheat bread slathered with more butter or cream cheese.

Lisa
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