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  #31   ^
Old Sat, Jun-14-08, 16:12
SissyPoo's Avatar
SissyPoo SissyPoo is offline
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Posts: 685
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 295/230/150 Female 5 ft. 7 in.
BF:
Progress: 45%
Location: Florida
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I do take vitamin D but am not taking 4000 ic daily. I take four 600 daily, two in the morning and two in the evening. So thats only 2400 daily. Do you think I need to up it to 4000.?
Whats the difference between D2 and D3?
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  #32   ^
Old Sat, Jun-14-08, 16:27
Judynyc's Avatar
Judynyc Judynyc is offline
Attitude is a Choice
Posts: 30,111
 
Plan: No sugar, flour, wheat
Stats: 228.4/209.0/170 Female 5'6"
BF:stl/too/mch
Progress: 33%
Location: NYC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SissyPoo
I do take vitamin D but am not taking 4000 ic daily. I take four 600 daily, two in the morning and two in the evening. So thats only 2400 daily. Do you think I need to up it to 4000.?
Whats the difference between D2 and D3?

Yes...you do need to up it to 2000 iu twice a day=4000 iu. gel caps better than pill form.

I wish I could tell you the difference, I only know to take D3...not D2.
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  #33   ^
Old Sun, Jun-15-08, 07:29
quietone quietone is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,271
 
Plan: original 72 Atkins
Stats: 201/177/142 Female 65 inches
BF:44/44/25
Progress: 41%
Location: Northern Virginia
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judy, I find the two x a day interesting...I know three people taking 50,000 iu prescribed by their dr (1 for fibro, two for osteopenia) and they take it once per week. I have also taken it twice a day, but now I'm wondering if I'm not having to take it twice a day because i'm not taking enough to start with.

I think I read somewhere that once you body gets enough D it actually sotres it and it isn't needed every day...anyone have anything on this?
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  #34   ^
Old Sun, Jun-15-08, 08:22
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
Experimenter
Posts: 25,843
 
Plan: DDF
Stats: 202/185.4/179 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 72%
Location: San Diego, CA
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D2 is artificial and not readily converted into D3. D3 is the real thing your body can use. It is also called cholecaliferol.
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  #35   ^
Old Sun, Jun-15-08, 13:51
Hutchinson's Avatar
Hutchinson Hutchinson is offline
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Posts: 2,886
 
Plan: Dr Dahlqvist's
Stats: 205/152/160 Male 69
BF:
Progress: 118%
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This paper "The Case Against Ergocalciferol as a vitamin Supplement" sets out the reasons why D3 should only be used rather than the less effective more expensive synthetic version.

Vitamin D2 rip-offs provides simpler reasons.
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  #36   ^
Old Sun, Jun-15-08, 14:02
Hutchinson's Avatar
Hutchinson Hutchinson is offline
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Posts: 2,886
 
Plan: Dr Dahlqvist's
Stats: 205/152/160 Male 69
BF:
Progress: 118%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quietone
judy, I find the two x a day interesting...I know three people taking 50,000 iu prescribed by their dr (1 for fibro, two for osteopenia) and they take it once per week. I have also taken it twice a day, but now I'm wondering if I'm not having to take it twice a day because i'm not taking enough to start with.
The problem with most prescribed vitamin d is that it is the wrong form. The only prescribed vitamin D is D2 and that MAY NOT be utilised by many people and when it is used it is less effective. So If you use D3 the cheap natural version, you find this raises status faster safer and cheaper than D2. The problem with D3 is that it is a natural product therefore non patentable therefore no one can profit from getting it FDA proved.

Quote:
I think I read somewhere that once you body gets enough D it actually sotres it and it isn't needed every day...anyone have anything on this?
The body only stores vitamin d when it's daily needs have been met. Therefore you can only start building up reserves of vitamin d3 for the winter AFTER you have consumed/acquired more than the 3000-5000iu your body uses daily. Food sources of vitamin d are so trivial they are hardly worth mentioning. Fortified milk may (if you are very lucky) have the 100iu/glass stated on the label but more often than not you will be disappointed. UK and EU readers should be aware that our milk is NOT FORTIFIED and contains a mere unmeasurable trace of vitamin d3, that is if you drink full cream milk. Oily fish is the best source but how many people eat oily fish daily? That could provide 400iu but on average most UK folk don't manage 3 portions of oily fish a week so are far short of their 4000iu/daily requirement.

While it is true that as Vit d is a fat soluble substance it isn't washed down the loo in your pee and thus hangs around for around 3 weeks, it is still the case that daily vitamin d supplementation is more effective than weekly or monthly supplementation. This is particularly the case for nursing mothers whose breast milk vitamin d content is dependent on DAILY supplementation at an effective rate. 5000-7000iu/daily to be on the safe side.
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  #37   ^
Old Sun, Jun-15-08, 14:17
Hutchinson's Avatar
Hutchinson Hutchinson is offline
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Posts: 2,886
 
Plan: Dr Dahlqvist's
Stats: 205/152/160 Male 69
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Progress: 118%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judynyc
gel caps better than pill form.
Carlson, Vitamin D, 2000 IU, 360 Soft Gels are an excellent product and I wouldn't want to put anyone off using them but I use D3 (5,000IU) 250ct details and I find these are both effective and cheap. Maybe it's because I always take my powder filled vitamin d capsule with my breakfast so there is always food available to stimulate the digestive system.
~~~~~~ earns you a $5 Iherb discount if you haven't used them before.
Vitalady.com may be a tad cheaper for the biotech vit d powder form as they sell an own brand version that's made by Biotech.

UK readers with fibro must take not of the fact that those USA posters using 4000iu/daily do have the advantage of living nearer the Equator (more days of UVB annually) on a continent (more hours sunshine daily than our cloud covered island) and where Vit d fortified milk/cereals are readily available.
It would be equivalent for a UK reader to use 5000iu as a daily base level amount as that will ensure your basic daily bodily need for Vit d is met and your sun exposure obtained vit d can be stored as necessary. Amounts up to 10,000iu/daily are absolutely risk free.

Last edited by Hutchinson : Sun, Jun-15-08 at 14:23.
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  #38   ^
Old Sun, Jun-15-08, 17:44
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SissyPoo SissyPoo is offline
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Plan: Atkins
Stats: 295/230/150 Female 5 ft. 7 in.
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Interesting . When i see my doctor again on July 8th. I'll ask him about this ok.
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  #39   ^
Old Mon, Jun-16-08, 02:34
Hutchinson's Avatar
Hutchinson Hutchinson is offline
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Plan: Dr Dahlqvist's
Stats: 205/152/160 Male 69
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Progress: 118%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SissyPoo
Interesting . When i see my doctor again on July 8th. I'll ask him about this ok.
You will be very lucky if you find a doctor who knows anything about Vitamin D3 that is worth repeating. Mostly they repeat out of date information that your basic common sense should be sufficient to demonstrate is utter rubbish.
Remember your body will, if you take your clothes off and go outside and lay down for 20minutes when your shadow is shorter than your height, make between 4000iu-10,000iu of D3.
Doctors on the whole will tell you 200iu-400iu daily is all you need and that 2000iu of the same stuff your skin makes in such quantity may be toxic.
We would not accept such reluctance to keep up to date with the latest research from the chap who fixes our PC so why we allow the chaps who fix our bodies to stay 20 yrs out of date with their BS information beats me. But Just how much good has medicine done over the years, and how much harm does it continue to do? Shows things have always been this way and nothing changes.
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  #40   ^
Old Mon, Jun-16-08, 06:55
quietone quietone is offline
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Posts: 1,271
 
Plan: original 72 Atkins
Stats: 201/177/142 Female 65 inches
BF:44/44/25
Progress: 41%
Location: Northern Virginia
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In March 2007, a group of vitamin D and nutrition researchers published a controversial and provocative editorial contending that the desirable concentration of 25(OH)D is ≥30 ng/mL (≥75 nmol/L) [12]. They noted that supplemental intakes of 400 IU/day of vitamin D increase 25(OH)D concentrations by only 2.8-4.8 ng/mL (7-12 nmol/L) and that daily intakes of approximately 1,700 IU are needed to raise these concentrations from 20 to 32 ng/mL (50 to 80 nmol/L).

Comment: The optimum level
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  #41   ^
Old Mon, Jun-16-08, 07:39
Hutchinson's Avatar
Hutchinson Hutchinson is offline
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Posts: 2,886
 
Plan: Dr Dahlqvist's
Stats: 205/152/160 Male 69
BF:
Progress: 118%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quietone
In March 2007, a group of vitamin D and nutrition researchers published a controversial and provocative editorial contending that the desirable concentration of 25(OH)D is ≥30 ng/mL (≥75 nmol/L) [12]. They noted that supplemental intakes of 400 IU/day of vitamin D increase 25(OH)D concentrations by only 2.8-4.8 ng/mL (7-12 nmol/L) and that daily intakes of approximately 1,700 IU are needed to raise these concentrations from 20 to 32 ng/mL (50 to 80 nmol/L).

Comment: The optimum level
They may well have done but it is now known that your body does not even start to store Vitamin d3 until circulating 25(OH)D is above 50ng 125nmol/l. We have known for a long time that the human body seems to use between 3000-5000iu/daily.

While it is true that 80nmol/l 32ng will enable most (but not all) people to absorb the optimal amount of calcium from their diet that is only one aspect of the role of vitamin d3. There are some 900+ Vitamin D receptors controlling well over 200gene reactions. Now we know the body isn't satisfied it can safely put spare vitamin d into storage untill after all it's daily basic needs have been met it seems dangerously misguided to adopt a lower than ideal level as the standard.

Wouldn't a better level be the vitamin d status that actually allowed breast milk to flow replete with vitamin d3?

I should also like to correct the idea that 1700iu is sufficient to raise status from 50-80nmol/l. That may work in the USA where there are more days of UVB available and more hours sunshine daily and milk is fortified and cereals also may be. In the UK (further north, cloudy island no milk fortification) it is more likely the oral dose of vitamin D3 to attain and maintain 25(OH)D levels >80 nmol/L is 2200 IU/d if baseline levels are the average UK adult winter status of 20 to 40 nmol/L.
Remember also that 80nmol/l is only first base.
You won't find any vit d in breast milk at that low level.
You won't have any spare Vit d to store for emergency use.
You won't have the level of protection necessary to protect from breast colon and other cancers. Why settle for than when for a trivial amount more money you can attain a level known to improve feelings of wellbeing.

You can get a home blood spot vitamin d test here if you really don't believe you are vitamin D insufficient.

I live in the UK. I take 5000iu/daily I also take every possible opportunity to get as much full body sun exposure as I can. Even so my 25(OH)D has never yet reached 60ng 150nmol/l although it has almost reached that level at 147.5nmol/l. I really don't believe that for folks living in the UK using amounts of vit d 2000IU or less will prove satisfactory. Imagine anyone suggesting that half the calorie intake for someone your height/weight/activity level was absolutely fine. Would your body still remain hungry for more?

It is only when your basic daily needs have been met in full that your body can save. Think of your savings bank account. While your daily income remains less than your daily expenditure can you possibly save?
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  #42   ^
Old Mon, Jun-16-08, 08:35
quietone quietone is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,271
 
Plan: original 72 Atkins
Stats: 201/177/142 Female 65 inches
BF:44/44/25
Progress: 41%
Location: Northern Virginia
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Well, everything I've ready says the 50,000 iu once a week protocol works well. Once the optimal amount has been reached, the Vit D stays stored for as long as 15 days to pull from when needed.

However, that may not work for everyone...hence the once a week instead of every 15 days. My daughter is on it twice a month and she is going to get her doctor to check her levels before she takes her pill on the 30th to see if it really is lasting 15 days. And who knows what "needs" it's pulled for. Does it matter if your menopausal...a woman...sick..broken bones? I think that would get into more studies than what we have available. Because as usual, why would be pharma do a study taht intense when they can't market sunshine!

Yes, hutchinson, you're correct in that the UK would not meet the same demands as here. But the limited amount we get in food here is not of much use. the only fortified foods that have real amount are dairy and bread products which most people with fibro should probably stay away from.

Everyone must choose for themselves what is the best protocol. If you have a good dr, hopefully they'll help, but as usual we have to be our own advocates.
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  #43   ^
Old Mon, Jun-16-08, 11:37
SissyPoo's Avatar
SissyPoo SissyPoo is offline
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Posts: 685
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 295/230/150 Female 5 ft. 7 in.
BF:
Progress: 45%
Location: Florida
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Can you buy the D3 over the counter? Where do you have to get it at, a pharmacy or at Wal Mart?
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  #44   ^
Old Mon, Jun-16-08, 11:54
Hutchinson's Avatar
Hutchinson Hutchinson is offline
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Posts: 2,886
 
Plan: Dr Dahlqvist's
Stats: 205/152/160 Male 69
BF:
Progress: 118%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SissyPoo
Can you buy the D3 over the counter? Where do you have to get it at, a pharmacy or at Wal Mart?
Carlson, Vitamin D, 2000 IU, 360 Soft Gels 11.28 Iherb do these Carlsons 2000 iu but I use Bio-tech 5000iu Whatever you get make sure it is D3 Cholecalciferol NOT D2 Ergocalciferol. The D2 is more expensive but less effective, this is what you will be prescribed if you get your Vit d from a doctor so if you get prescribed D2 buy your own replacement D3 rather than waste time and money taking a less effective but more expensive potentially more toxic synthetic product.
Vitalady.com do an own brand Cholecalciferol made by Biotech that may work out a tad cheaper. Vitacost do Carlson Solar D Gems Vitamin D -- 4000 360 Soft Gels Our price: $22.90

those new to Iherb can get a $5 introductory discount with the code ~~~~~~.
'm in the UK and we are only allowed to buy 1000iu here so are obliged to buy from the USA to get an effective strength. The reason I use Iherb rather than Vitacost is they use USPS rather than carriers and the carriers work out more expensive than the post.
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  #45   ^
Old Mon, Jun-16-08, 13:27
Judynyc's Avatar
Judynyc Judynyc is offline
Attitude is a Choice
Posts: 30,111
 
Plan: No sugar, flour, wheat
Stats: 228.4/209.0/170 Female 5'6"
BF:stl/too/mch
Progress: 33%
Location: NYC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SissyPoo
Can you buy the D3 over the counter? Where do you have to get it at, a pharmacy or at Wal Mart?


Generally health food stores, pharmacies and yes, it is over the counter.
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