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  #46   ^
Old Tue, Mar-04-08, 16:21
LessLiz's Avatar
LessLiz LessLiz is offline
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Quote:
If parents don't need someone to tell them that their kids are overweight, then why aren't they doing something about it?
With the rate of sustained weight loss running around 1%, what in the world would make anyone assume that the parents just don't care?
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  #47   ^
Old Tue, Mar-04-08, 16:49
rightnow's Avatar
rightnow rightnow is offline
Every moment is NOW.
Posts: 23,064
 
Plan: LC (ketogenic)
Stats: 520/381/280 Female 66 inches
BF: Why yes it is.
Progress: 58%
Location: Ozarks USA
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Niki, the fabulous blogger of Oh.2.B.Fit, is diabetic and has lost a TON of weight. She's the most emotionally honest and culinarily creative lowcarb blogger I know, which is really saying something since there are quite a few that are very cool. She has a daughter who is overweight. And remember, this is someone who totally KNOWS lowcarb, who has succeeded with it, who has seen her medications drop and disappear -- in short, who is better educated about nutrition than 99% of the planet.

Let me quote for you a comment she just posted on my public blog.

Quote:
Mine is 7 and over weight. I want to put her on low carb, but all the Dr.'s say it isn't good for her. I don't see how it could not be. I took her to a nutritionist who said WHITE BREAD AND WHITE PASTA was better for her than wheat because it is fortified O_O WTF!!! And that I shouldn't use real butter with her, but I should use butter spray. You know the crap that is full of hydrogenated oils!?!?! How can that be good. I am so confused and not sure what to do. Also do you know of any good EASY TO READ articles on kids and low carb diets???


This is a good part of why children are fat. Because all the "official" recommendations do is make matters worse.

As a note, Regina Wilshire has a very cool blog just for kid-related nutrition, here:

http://controlledcarbkids.blogspot.com/

PJ
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  #48   ^
Old Tue, Mar-04-08, 17:04
rightnow's Avatar
rightnow rightnow is offline
Every moment is NOW.
Posts: 23,064
 
Plan: LC (ketogenic)
Stats: 520/381/280 Female 66 inches
BF: Why yes it is.
Progress: 58%
Location: Ozarks USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EMKAY 53
Give me a break. If parents don't need someone to tell them that their kids are overweight, then why aren't they doing something about it?

That's a perfectly good point, in some respects.

Now let's apply it to the millions and millions of adults who are overweight.

"Hey you! Can't you see you're fat? Why aren't you DOING something about it?!"

And you'd run into the "diet success rate syndrome" -- 1-2% of the dieting population is capable of keeping the weight off, at least according to the standard dieting approach that docs and nutritionists give people.

Most people who are fat have dieted and dieted and dieted and in the end are fatter, not thinner.

My electrician is a real nice guy. Big guy, just by structure. His wife is also a big boned, square-shaped woman. They have a daughter who is simply lovely, with hair like Rapunzel. Unfortunately, the child has been quite fat since she was 5 when I met her. She is now 11 and she's still fat. I remember talking with him one time at a baseball game. He was telling me he felt sorry that his little girl seemed to get his figure. I said Darrin, she is a BEAUTIFUL little girl. With enough emphasis he knew the point I was making. Then he said that he and his wife had been trying for a long time to eat better but it just didn't seem to work for some reason, the weight never came off. Since I know he'd be doing highcarb, and they are obviously a genetic line that's a disaster for, I could see why. Anyway, I see his girl outside the school regularly in the afternoons when I pick up my little girl. She is truly lovely. Granted, she's fat, but that doesn't change the fact that her face and hair are beautiful. I saw her get in the truck with her dad the other day, and realized that since I saw him last, he has probably gained another 80 lbs at least. I felt so hugely sad. I mean.... really. Just really, really, really sad. The party line on nutrition will do nothing but add misery, disease and death to these peoples' lives.

Maybe they should be "trying harder." Maybe the fact that their kid's been fat her whole life means "they don't care." I could see that HE cared deeply. I could see his crushing embarrassment over his own weight, let alone his little girl's. I don't know that his situation applies to everybody.

But damn it, my little girl's friends are skinny, and they eat like HELL. They eat almost nothing but fast food, canned food, boxed food, frozen food. In fact, if we ate like they did, we would now be at least 1/3 larger and on our way to yet more growth.

What I think people are just. Not. Getting. Is that obesity is basically a disease, or close enough. It's assuming that obesity is simply caused by gluttony that causes people to think everybody should "just be fixing it" by following their doctor's guidelines, and that fat children mean neglectful parents.

Most skinny people eat just as bad as many fat people. THEIR disease will probably just be cancer or diabetes instead of fat. The fact that people seem to genetically be predisposed to "exhibit the resultant disorder" in different ways does not make fat people or parents of fat children somehow more neglectful or less responsible or less 'innocent' than someone whose child gets a diet-related disease at age 17 or 27 as a result of their lifetime eating habits.

PJ
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  #49   ^
Old Tue, Mar-04-08, 18:32
waywardsis's Avatar
waywardsis waywardsis is offline
Dazilous
Posts: 2,657
 
Plan: NeanderkIF
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IMO, it's not just about the data collection, the finger-pointing at obese kids, et al - what about the reinforcement of weight as a measure of "goodness"? The girls, at least, are going to get together after the weighing and compare, and whoever has the lowest weight (as long as they're popular, that is) will be the best - and the one that the other girls try to weigh lower than the next time around. I think there are enough self-esteem issues with young girls, thanks. No need to encourage them further to try to "make weight", or weigh the same as Mary Kate Olsen or whoever the latest pro-ana role model is.

My whole family is involved with education - stepmum is a principal at an elementary school, mum was an aide to behavioural problem or disabled kids and taught nursery kids, dad teaches night school, stepdad was a principal. Honestly, teachers and principals have more than enough on their plates.

And if they do collect data - then what? Low-fat yogurt in the cafeteria along with their soy burgers? What about kids who are underweight, as I was for years? Force feed them butter? And if the overweight kids, who are now terrified of weigh-in day, have parents who don't know the facts and keep feeding them junk OR low-fat, carby "good" stuff, decide to take matters into their own hands to avoid the humiliation? Hello, crash dieting/buliemia in grade 6. Nice. Maybe they'll take up smoking too - helps keep you skinny, I hear.

Not trying to be dramatic here, but we're talking about people who operate within a totally different social code than we do and who do not make rational decisions based on careful research and study, but from (for the most part) emotion. Same goes for the kids (hardy har har).

Oh - and everything PJ said.
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  #50   ^
Old Thu, Mar-06-08, 07:34
ReginaW's Avatar
ReginaW ReginaW is offline
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Default Obesity tests could weigh down schools

Obesity tests could weigh down schools
State Senate measure requires body-mass index screenings

Last week, the Georgia Senate passed a bill that would require elementary school students to be screened for obesity. School nurses say it would promote better health, but concerns have been raised about privacy and about how the mandate would be implemented.

Senate Bill 506 calls for testing students’ body-mass index twice a year, in fall and spring. The BMI is a combined measure of height and weight, and a higher-than-normal score could indicate the child is at risk for obesity.

The bill still needs to pass in the state House of Representatives before the end of the legislative session in order to become law.

Mamie Coker, health services coordinator, said a screening program is needed because childhood obesity has become "a public health threat that needs to be taken seriously."
Long before students reach high school, Coker said, many are already developing type 2 diabetes or high blood pressure because of poor diet and lack of exercise.

"The arteries start clogging in elementary school," she said.

Sen. Renee Unterman (R-Buford), a former nurse who serves on the Senate health committee, voted in favor of the bill, which passed 37-13. She said it’s much more cost-effective to prevent obesity than to try to reverse it.

"These kids are going to grow into obese adults, and they’ll have all the problems that come with that: diabetes, heart disease, strokes," she said. "We’re going to end up paying for that down the road, because many of these people will be Medicaid patients."

The Georgia bill is modeled after one that was enacted in Arkansas in 2003 under former Gov. Mike Huckabee, who has been a crusader for fitness and weight loss. Several other states have passed similar legislation.

"It’s truly embarrassing to see what other states are doing. They’re being proactive, and Georgia is doing nothing," said Unterman. "We’re on the bottom level with Louisiana and Mississippi in terms of our rate of obesity."

She said other bills that tried to address childhood obesity, such as a requirement for mandatory physical education in schools, have been repeatedly shot down by Georgia’s legislators.

"People just accept obesity as part of the computer age, and they say there’s nothing you can do about it," she said.

On the Senate floor last week, some legislators complained that the bill would create a "nanny state." They argued that families, not schools, should be responsible for monitoring children’s weight.

But Unterman said it’s obvious that some families aren’t up to the task. "I know it’s the parents’ responsibility, but at some point the state needs to step in and help out," she said. "The school didn’t make children overweight, but it can help them to not be overweight."

Under the proposed law, each child’s weight and height would be measured by the school nurse, or by a physical education teacher if the school doesn’t have a nurse. Individual BMI scores would be kept confidential and would be made available only to parents.

But the BMI scores of all the students at each school would also be combined into average score, which must be posted on the school’s Web site. The State Board of Education would compile all the data in order to gauge the health status of each school system in Georgia.

Schools with high aggregated BMIs may be asked to take measures such as increase the amount of physical education provided. But Unterman said the bill is not designed to be punitive.

"Hopefully, the (parent-teacher organizations) would step in and help out, offering parents education about diet and exercise," she said.

Catherine Rosa, principal of McEver Elementary School in Gainesville, said the bill sounds like it could be beneficial, at least in theory.

"With the growing problem of childhood obesity, it’s probably not a bad thing," she said.

But schools are already squeezed by so many state and federal mandates, and Rosa wonders whether this is the best use of limited time and resources.

"Why do the kids have to be weighed twice a year?" she said. "I only have 430 kids in my school. What about the ones that have 900?"

Rosa said Hall County is lucky enough to have a nurse at every elementary school, but some school systems in Georgia are not so fortunate.

McEver Elementary also has a medical scale on the premises, but not all schools do, and the bill does not include any funding to help schools purchase scales.

Coker said those logistical issues would have to be worked out. But she thinks the BMI can be an important health indicator.

And like it or not, schools are already involved in monitoring students’ medical status. In order to enroll, students have to provide proof that they’ve had their vaccinations and they’ve been screened for vision, dental and hearing problems.

Coker said parents don’t question those rules. But their child’s weight can be a touchy subject.

"There’s a lot of sensitivity about weight," she said. "Parents don’t want their child to be singled out or made fun of."

But that shouldn’t happen as a result of this law, if the BMI results are known only to the school nurse and the parents. Overweight children are already subject to teasing by other kids, simply because of their appearance. Having their BMI checked won’t change that, Coker said.

She said knowing the BMI score could be helpful for some parents, who may not realize that their child is at risk for health problems.

"A lot of families just don’t know the child is overweight," she said. "They think he’s just big-boned, or it’s just baby fat and he’ll grow out of it."

Coker said obese children almost always become obese adults, so early intervention is important. "Prevention is best done by about the second or third grade," she said.

If parents are not receptive and don’t want to acknowledge that the child may have a problem, Coker said schools can at least work on educating the student about proper diet and exercise.

Rosa said she prefers a group approach. "(At McEver) we do a lot already to promote health and fitness," she said. "We wouldn’t target any individual kid. We would offer the same education for everyone."

Coker said if it were up to her, she would delete the portion of SB 506 that requires each school to publicize its average BMI.

"I don’t agree with aggregating the data. What does that accomplish?" she said.

Coker pointed out that some schools have a higher percentage of obese students due to factors that are beyond the school’s control, such as cultural and ethnic differences. She doesn’t think it would be fair if those schools got a reputation as being "fatter" than others.

"I think that will hurt the chances of the bill passing (in the state House)," she said. "With No Child Left Behind, schools already don’t like being labeled."


Source: http://www.gainesvilletimes.com/news/article/3953/
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  #51   ^
Old Thu, Mar-06-08, 08:40
LessLiz's Avatar
LessLiz LessLiz is offline
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So every time there is a bill that at least in part address the problem it gets shot down. Nice.
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  #52   ^
Old Thu, Mar-06-08, 09:14
ReginaW's Avatar
ReginaW ReginaW is offline
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Plan: Atkins/Controlled Carb
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LessLiz
So every time there is a bill that at least in part address the problem it gets shot down. Nice.


If parents are already required to prove their child has had vaccinations, hearing tests, dental and health sceenings - they can reword the bill to add that BMI has been included in the various screenings required to be done by a healthcare professional too. The doctor's office and/or public health facility that does the other stuff can note that the child has been weighed and measured and maintain the confidentiality of the result - they don't have to release the BMI to the school, just that is was done and that's it.
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  #53   ^
Old Thu, Mar-06-08, 09:18
LessLiz's Avatar
LessLiz LessLiz is offline
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True, but that doesn't allow for data collection which seems to be the point of this bill.
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  #54   ^
Old Thu, Mar-06-08, 09:34
ReginaW's Avatar
ReginaW ReginaW is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LessLiz
True, but that doesn't allow for data collection which seems to be the point of this bill.


To what end?

What is the job of a school? Is it to monitor health of children, or to teach academics, civics and such?

If the state wants to do something, there are better options that are much less of a privacy issue than weighing and measuring kids.

They can fund a manadate for physical education, requiring schools provide 30-minutes (or more) per day of gym class for K-12...

They can ban schools from entering into contracts with soft-drink manufacturers...

They can withhold X-$ funding of any school with vending machines accessible to kids (ie. the teachers lounge can have vending machines for teachers if they want)...

They can ban schools from including any industry sponsored items in the curriculum or targeting children - ie. no more counting oreos books, no more pizza for A's...

The can do a heck of a lot other than now getting schools to weigh and measure kids to collect data that already exists from the NIH, CDC, and various health organizations. Yes, we know, some kids today are obese - weighing and measuring them in school isn't going to reverse that without other CLEAR initiatives to eliminate the problems that exist within the schools themselves that contribute to childhood obesity (vending machines, soda machines, crappy lunches, limited PE, etc.)
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  #55   ^
Old Thu, Mar-06-08, 10:26
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KarenJ KarenJ is offline
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Plan: tasty animals with butter
Stats: 170/115/110 Female 60"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReginaW
To what end?
Yes, we know, some kids today are obese - weighing and measuring them in school isn't going to reverse that without other CLEAR initiatives to eliminate the problems that exist within the schools themselves that contribute to childhood obesity (vending machines, soda machines, crappy lunches, limited PE, etc.)


Yes. CLEAR initiatives are needed. This is all a complete waste of time and money, and until they admit they were wrong and take the sugar off the menu, nothing will change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rightnow
What I think people are just. Not. Getting. Is that obesity is basically a disease, or close enough. It's assuming that obesity is simply caused by gluttony that causes people to think everybody should "just be fixing it" by following their doctor's guidelines, and that fat children mean neglectful parents.


The low fat high carb dogma is EVERYWHERE. I get flyers form the elementary school every single day with "nutrition tips" - and its always the same establishment falsehoods. Eat your whole wheat waffles, go outside and play, etc.
I'm not a suing kinda gal, but I truly think that some (or all) of the public health organizations are directly responsible for the obesity epidemic and should be called to task (sued). Weighing kids will not solve the problem.

I have a neighbor who is part of this mainstream phenomena. She is obese, and so is her daughter. She is following all the recommendations: the daughter exercises regularly (big into sports), eats low fat foods, and both of them are getting bigger and bigger. It is truly sad. How do we turn it around?


The thin kids who eat nothing but junk are just as malnourished, it just isn't visually apparent.
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  #56   ^
Old Thu, Mar-06-08, 10:51
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ValerieL ValerieL is offline
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The thing that keeps occuring to me as well is that children are growing - all at different rates. I keep thinking of my nephew, poor guy, he got our family's proclivity for weight trouble instead even though his own mom and older brother were blessed to avoid it. He's always been a little pudgy. My sister knows the dangers of weight and works hard to help him eat healthfuly while not making him feel insecure about his weight. Just before puberty, he started getting downright fat. I actually worried, my sister took him to the doctor, the doctor just said to stay the course, and let him grow into his weight. Lo & behold, puberty hit, he shot up 6 or 8 inches in a year, his voice cracked and he's at a reasonable weight for his height again and feeling pretty okay about himself.

Would he feel as okay about himself if he'd had a few BMI measurements from the school with notes going home to his mother saying that he was fat? What about parents not informed enough (or without health care) to take their kids to the doctor to ask about it?

It's one thing to judge a person's fatness when they have stopped growing and are adult, but I really don't think it's fair to place expectations on kids that they never have puppy fat or pre-growth weight gain.
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  #57   ^
Old Thu, Mar-06-08, 11:08
EMKAY 53's Avatar
EMKAY 53 EMKAY 53 is offline
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Plan: ATKINS
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Location: Calgary, Alberta
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What about the other end of the scale where anorexia and bulimia are rampant? It may work to help out with some of that. Girls are pretty good about hiding that stuff. With the emergence of pro-anorexia and bulimia sites offering info on how to starve yourself and purging instructions and how to hide it all from your parents...I think it could be a positive thing. Obesity is prevalent but so are those disorders, moreso even because it is easier to hide and much more accepted amongst peers.
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  #58   ^
Old Thu, Mar-06-08, 11:12
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joesfolks joesfolks is offline
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Plan: general leaning toward Sb
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At the school my daughter now attends they take time out from classes to allow for a snack time. While the kids who get free lunch are given a somewhat healthy snack (But very carby) all the kids with a few extra pennies buy candy bars and other garbagy snacks. It is a money making venture for the schools. I have tried to convince them to do away with these snacks but nooooo. So here is the concern... will they really ridicule overwieght kids when they are actively contibuting to and benefitting from the problem?
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  #59   ^
Old Thu, Mar-06-08, 12:45
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LAwoman75 LAwoman75 is offline
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Plan: Whole food, semi low carb
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Quote:
It's one thing to judge a person's fatness when they have stopped growing and are adult, but I really don't think it's fair to place expectations on kids that they never have puppy fat or pre-growth weight gain.


I respectfully disagree. I think this kind of thinking is part of the problem. Too many people are so afraid to do anything about the childhood obesity problem because they're afraid of what it will do to the kids. Well, what do you think an entire childhood, teen years, and into adulthood of obesity will do to the kids? That will certainly not help their self-esteem. Now all kids are like your nephew and grow out of it, in fact, that's probably a very small percentage. While we struggle to protect our children from being embarassed or being told they're fat, we may wind up doing more damage than good.
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  #60   ^
Old Thu, Mar-06-08, 13:00
ReginaW's Avatar
ReginaW ReginaW is offline
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Plan: Atkins/Controlled Carb
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LAwoman75
I respectfully disagree. I think this kind of thinking is part of the problem. Too many people are so afraid to do anything about the childhood obesity problem because they're afraid of what it will do to the kids. Well, what do you think an entire childhood, teen years, and into adulthood of obesity will do to the kids? That will certainly not help their self-esteem. Now all kids are like your nephew and grow out of it, in fact, that's probably a very small percentage. While we struggle to protect our children from being embarassed or being told they're fat, we may wind up doing more damage than good.


Is the school better qualified than a healthcare professional to do the weight-height measures and BMI calculation? Nope.

Is the school better qualified than a healthcare professional to discuss with parents ways to help their child regarding weight? Nope.

Is there doctor-patient confidentiality with school personnel and an under-age minor? Nope.

Is the school, rather than a healthcare provider, qualified to assess what real health issue may be an underlying cause of obesity? Nope.

Is the information collected useful to the school and its administrators? Nope.

Does the data collected enhance the education of children? Nope.

Does the collection of data include any meaningful changes in the status quo of vending machines, industry contracts, in-school advertising (stealth marketing), etc.? Nope.

------------

So far as kids outgrowing "puppy fat" (love that term BTW) - true some don't....but many do. Case in point - friends of ours had a baby - normal weight at birth, by six months, the fattest baby I've ever seen - the rolls on her legs were incredible. When asked what she was being fed by the "concerned" pediatrician and told exclusive breast-feeding.....the doctor said not to change anything, given mom & dad's height (6' and 6'4") it was likely the baby was setting up for a growth spurt....sure enough, at one, she was tall and much leaner (normal weight), having grown 9" in her first year......imagine if that pediatrician didn't notice mom's height or didn't believe mom was exclusively breast-feeding......and wanted to do something about the baby's "obese" BMI?
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