Active Low-Carber Forums
Atkins diet and low carb discussion provided free for information only, not as medical advice.
Home Plans Tips Recipes Tools Stories Studies Products
Active Low-Carber Forums
A sugar-free zone


Welcome to the Active Low-Carber Forums.
Support for Atkins diet, Protein Power, Neanderthin (Paleo Diet), CAD/CALP, Dr. Bernstein Diabetes Solution and any other healthy low-carb diet or plan, all are welcome in our lowcarb community. Forget starvation and fad diets -- join the healthy eating crowd! You may register by clicking here, it's free!

Go Back   Active Low-Carber Forums > Main Low-Carb Diets Forums & Support > Low-Carb Studies & Research / Media Watch > LC Research/Media
User Name
Password
FAQ Members Calendar Search Gallery My P.L.A.N. Survey


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #16   ^
Old Sat, Jan-26-08, 17:20
Legeon's Avatar
Legeon Legeon is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 511
 
Plan: lowcarb/high fat/Failsafe
Stats: 280/245/150 Female 69 inches
BF:
Progress: 27%
Location: Pennsylvania
Default

Quote:
Why didn't he just spend more time reading this forum?
What would he have seen? The folks who increase the amount of calories they eat and still lose weight, maybe? The ones who say they have to do this or they stall?
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #17   ^
Old Sat, Jan-26-08, 17:26
bluesmoke bluesmoke is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 521
 
Plan: Atkins+
Stats: 386/285/200 Male 5'11"
BF:
Progress: 54%
Default

"Kneebrace - Taubes very specifically and very cleverly deflates the idea that a caloric deficit is necessary to burn fat, as has Eades and others. Check out Eades' blogs on Anthony Colpo."
Greatly abridged, Taubes reports that the body burns body fat whenever needed, such as between meals and at night while asleep. To rebuild those fat reserves, insulin is necessary or fat won't be stored. Low carb keeps insulin levels low and fat is not deposited. Taubes cites numerous sources and they can be checked, but how insulin works is not a secret among endocrinologists, it is just the most obesity "experts" don't pay attention. Nyah Levi
Reply With Quote
  #18   ^
Old Sat, Jan-26-08, 19:40
bsheets's Avatar
bsheets bsheets is offline
Faux-foods=Doh!Foods
Posts: 3,254
 
Plan: Low Carb
Stats: 216/180/154 Female 168cm
BF:
Progress: 58%
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Default

Only fair to show the other side, right? Even if Vance IS full of it

Big Fat Omissions: Science, logic sorely lacking in pro-Atkins article

By Vance Lehmkuhl


Back in 2002, when The New York Times was still the most respectable American newspaper imaginable, its magazine section ran a piece by Gary Taubes with the headline "What if it's All a Big Fat Lie?" and people around the nation, journalists, scientists, and the everyday public alike, rushed to reconsider their notions of fat and nutrition. In the ensuing year, the Times has seen its credibility torpedoed by twin scandals of bogus reporting, but so far Taubes' 7,700-word pro-Atkins essay - illustrated by a cut of butter-slathered steak - has largely escaped close scrutiny. Indeed, his fat apologia has been picked up by the mainstream press as the operating story, and newstudies, even when inconclusive or negative toward Atkins, are being spun as further proof of the new paradigm.

In "Big Fat Lie," Taubes gleefully trashed decades of nutrition advice from various experts to prove that "Atkins was right all along." Robert Atkins, who died in March of a slip on the ice, was of course the most famous proponent of high-protein, low-carbohydrate diets, author of the best-selling "Dr. Atkins' Diet Revolution." The fact that Gary Taubes, an Atkins devotee, was assigned by the Times to write a seemingly objective analysis of the good doctor's theories is just one of many questions raised by "Big Fat Lie."

A close look finds Taubes misquoting, misrepresenting, equivocating and running logical loop-the-loops to persuade us that Atkins had the answer, before finally revealing that he's on the diet himself and doesn't really care whether it shortens his life. Doubtless most readers are unaware of the CNN report in which scientists quoted by Taubes backed away from the concepts attributed to them. And few probably saw the Washington Post article citing all the peer-reviewed scientific studies that directly contradict Taubes' "low-fat diets don't work" mantra.

Even on its face, "Big Fat Lie" isn't what it appears. Taubes, the daring iconoclast, "exposes" the fact that fat can be good for you and that low-carb diets can cause weight loss, then tries to put these together to form an endorsement of the healthfulness of Atkins' program. But wait: Nutritionists never said NO fat was healthy; and it's not whether they cause temporary weight loss that concerns people about Atkins-style diets - it's whether they're harmful to your overall, long-term health. In other words, Taubes' great achievement in 7,700 words is to knock down two obvious "straw man" arguments that no one ever made.

What he fails to prove, though, is their converse - that SATURATED fat is good for you, or that Atkins' diet ISN'T dangerous over the long term - exactly where the argument has been all along. So he slams the establishment for vilifying "fats," Taubes means "saturated fats," but when he cites positive health effects of "fats" he cites studies on monounsaturated fats.

Similarly, when he warns of the dangers of "high carb" intake, he means sugar, corn syrup, and some starches, not the fruits, beans, and whole grains that make up such a large part of a healthful, plant-based diet. Now, it's true that the USDA Food Pyramid does probably err in presenting grains as an undifferentiated, eat-all-you-want base for our diet, but Taubes wildly overstates the effect this has had on American eating patterns. In his thinking, we've become more obese because we're eating exactly as the Food Pyramid tells us to, so the pyramid must be completely wrong. He conveniently avoids any mention of how few Americans actually eat according to the guidelines (fewer than a third, according to the Department of Health and Human Services), and ridicules the notion that our food choices may be more influenced by our ad-saturated instant-gratification culture than by the opinions of scientists.

Shortly after this piece appeared, an American Dietetic Association survey showed that most of us get our nutrition advice from commercial television. But in Taubes' world, that's irrelevant: We eat junk food because of USDA "low fat" guidelines. We guzzle soft drinks, he says, because "they are fat free and so appear intrinsically healthy." That's right: Soft drinks "appear intrinsically healthy!" Have you ever heard ANYONE make a health claim for Coca-Cola, Pepsi, or Mountain Dew because they're "fat free?" It's no secret that these things are heavily branded sugar water, or that sugar makes you fat. But it's more important to be cool, to be refreshed, to obey your thirst, to get that jolt of caffeine and sugar right now.

Taubes finds it inconceivable "that the copious negative reinforcement that accompanies obesity - both socially and physically - is easily overcome by the constant bombardment of food advertising and the lure of a supersize bargain meal." In other words, being obese is so punishing that people who continue to live on fast food must be doing so because they consider it healthy. This disingenuousness underlies much of Taubes' analysis, which seeks to tie a decades-long rise in obesity to recent recommendations to lower our fat intake.

The impact of the food pyramid, which replaced the "Four Food Groups" in 1992, was apparently so great that it caused us to gain weight a full ten years before the pyramid appeared!: "The percentage of obese Americans," Taubes reports, "stayed relatively constant through the 1960's and 1970's at 13 percent to 14 percent and then shot up by 8 percentage points in the 1980's." Taubes feigns mystification at the fact that during this rise, we've been eating less fat as a percentage of calories. Yet a few sentences later he mentions that we're also eating 400 more calories every day. As it happens, we're NOT eating less fat now, we're eating slightly more - something he never finds room to mention - but we're definitely eating way more food, way more calories - you know, the thing that makes you fat? So what's the best way to avoid excess calories and still get good nutrition? Easy: Nutritious foods that are low in calories - a description that befits most unprocessed plant foods. Remember that gram for gram, fat has twice the calories that carbs do, without providing twice the vitamins.

But that's OK, because Atkins' plan is for you to get vitamins elsewhere - namely, from the Atkins Center, which sells "Atkins" brand vitamins at phenomenal prices. The "Diet-Pak," for instance, containing "a month's supply of all the nutritional support your body needs to survive and thrive during controlled carb weight loss," is on sale for $53.96 (marked down from $63.96). That word "survive" is a little jarring - the implication is, if you want to be sure this diet doesn't kill you, fork over $640 a year (assuming that sale price holds) to get the nutrients missing in your "nutrient-dense" food supply. Taubes doesn't bring any of this up, of course, but he tacitly admits that the diet is dependent on vitamin supplements to deliver adequate nutrition. In his prime example of a clinically successful Atkins-style diet, he reports that "the diet was 'lean meat, fish and fowl' supplemented by vitamins and minerals." Note that even the meat is lower-fat. This is a big fat endorsement? There are other interesting omissions in this very long article, not least the many non-vitamin-related health liabilities associated with a high-animal-protein diet (see sidebar). Nor does Taubes seem to want to discuss the charge that Atkins-style diets cause constipation. After all, what's a little discomfort here and there when you're improving your health through the power of saturated fat?

As if weak logic, straw-man arguments, and careful selection of factoids was not enough to drive his point home, Taubes apparently stooped to misrepresenting his sources and to denying the existence of data that didn't fit.

Some would be surprised that in his thorough examination of the relationship of high- or low-carb diets to heart disease, Taubes conveniently forgot to consider the peer-reviewed successes of, say, Dean Ornish, but it's much more than that: his summary of what science has found out about these issues is so skewed as to border on outright fraud.

Scripps Howard columnist Michael Fumento quotes Stanford University cardiologist Dr. John Farquhar as saying "I was greatly offended by how Gary Taubes tricked us all into coming across as supporters of the Atkins Diet. I'm sorry I ever talked to him."

And, CNN Medical Correspondent Elizabeth Cohen (7/8/02) spoke to three of the Harvard researchers spotlighted in Taubes' piece - the ones representing a major shift in thinking about Atkins - and heard from them that Taubes had misrepresented their positions on the matter of fats vs. carbs. They all explained that there are good fats and bad fats, and good carbs and bad carbs, making the categorical distinctions that Taubes had worked so hard to elide. And "...cheeseburgers, pork chops, butter and bacon," Cohen says, "the folks who I talked to said: 'You know what? We don't like that kind of fat. We don't think that's good for people."
One Harvard researcher Taubes cited is Walter Willett, who has long been a critic of the prevalence of starchy grains in USDA recommendations, among other things. Taubes seems to elicit phrases from Willett supporting his cheeseburger-based regimen. Yet Willett told Time Magazine (12/24/90): "The less red meat, the better. At most, it should be eaten only occasionally. And it may be maximally effective not to eat red meat at all."

Has Willett changed his viewpoint, or has he been misrepresented? If we're to believe the Washington Post, it's the latter. In "Experts Declare Story Low on Saturated Facts" (8/27/02), Sally Squires spoke to Willett regarding Taubes' remarkable advice to "eat lard straight out of the can" to "reduce your risk of heart disease."

Willett recalled speaking to Taubes about lard, but stressed that "I don't think that lard is part of a healthy diet." Instead, he told Squires, the idea is to "'replace unhealthy fats with healthy fats,' such as those found in fish, nuts, olives and avocados." After explaining at some length why those fats, unlike lard, have a positive impact on your cholesterol, Willett added: "And I have gone over this a number of times with Gary, but he barely mentioned it in the article."

That's not the only discrepancy Squires found in Taubes' reporting. As the author contends throughout "Big Fat Lie" that low-fat diets have proven to be "dismal failures," Squires found dozens of peer-reviewed studies that proved exactly the opposite and asked Taubes why he ignored these reams of data - especially when they came from his own sources. A researcher named Arne Astrup, for instance, whom Taubes interviewed for a half-hour, said he provided Taubes with "all the evidence suggesting that low-fat diets are the best documented diets and was extremely surprised to see that he didn't use any of that information in his article."

Taubes' excuses for these omissions - ranging from an opinion that one prominent scientist "didn't strike me as a scientist," to an assessment that another didn't cause quite enough weight loss, to his own "gut feeling" that the head of one peer-reviewed study "made the data up," to a breezy dismissal of the entire science of epidemiology - come off as comically bogus. Squires may have been giving Taubes a taste of his own selective-quote medicine, especially by concluding her article with his quote "I know, I sound like if somebody finds something I believe in, then I don't question it."

Well, yeah, that's just it. Taubes launches his "Big Fat Lie" broadside by explicitly linking the conventional, low-fat wisdom to religious zealotry. In his introductory paragraphs, he stresses this is something "we've been told with almost religious certainty ... and we have come to believe with almost religious certainty." But after a careful examination of the article's construction and its history (at least according to the other people involved in it), it becomes clear that Taubes, an Atkins disciple, is projecting his own zealotry onto those he disagrees with.

While some manipulations in his writing seem very carefully calculated - e.g., waiting until the next-to-last paragraph to include three major bombshells (that he is on the diet himself, that overconsumption of saturated fat can indeed shorten lifespan, and that "Atkins had suffered with heart troubles of his own" - it would seem that Taubes was not exactly trying to deceive his readers. Instead, he just wants us to believe as fervently as he does; his judgement of what's relevant and what's not, what's logical and what's not, is somewhat skewed by his faith in the animal-fat credo.

All in all, the article is not without some merit: It encouraged more discussion of the role of different fats, and the possibility that different levels of fat and carbs may work differently for different people. Since "Big Fat Lie" appeared, some studies have confirmed, once again, that Atkins-style diets can indeed cause weight loss, and without any short-term health effects. On the other hand, a massive Stanford University survey of low-carb trials confirmed that the key to the diet's success is simple calorie restriction rather than any "magical" metabolic process. And, in one of the "success story" studies (New England Journal of Medicine, May 2003), people on the low-carb program gained twice as much weight back after a year than did the low-fat participants, leading the Washington Post to call the "long-term benefits negligible." And in June, another New York Times writer, Jason Epstein, penned a public apology to readers for his earlier Atkins evangelizing.

Who knows? Maybe a new scientific study will indeed find the perfect combination of body type and fat/protein mix to validate Atkins' theories. On the other hand, maybe the answer will be: It worked for some people because, like Taubes, they really, truly believed it would.


Vance Lehmkuhl is a writer and political cartoonist for the Philadephia City Paper. A collection of his vegetarian cartoons is published as a book, "The Joy of Soy." Vance is featured as a speaker and entertainer at Vegetarian Summerfest.

Source: http://www.navs-online.org/atkins.html
Reply With Quote
  #19   ^
Old Sat, Jan-26-08, 20:00
LC FP LC FP is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,162
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 228/195/188 Male 72 inches
BF:
Progress: 83%
Location: Erie PA
Default

kneebrace, you access bodyfat every night while you sleep. No matter what kind of diet you eat. 30-70% of your blood sugar present in the morning is new glucose, made by your liver overnight by gluconeogenesis from amino acids and fat.

But I admit, it doesn't take much fat and protien to synthesize 30-70% of a teaspoon of glucose, which is about the amount of glucose in your blood at any given time..
Reply With Quote
  #20   ^
Old Sat, Jan-26-08, 20:25
mike_d's Avatar
mike_d mike_d is offline
Grease is the word!
Posts: 8,475
 
Plan: PSMF/IF
Stats: 236/181/180 Male 72 inches
BF:disappearing!
Progress: 98%
Location: Alamo city, Texas
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kneebrace
So although the book in its entirety is an enormous achievement, in one of its most important messages he is completely misguided. This is such a pity.
Yes, to quote Anthony Colpo "calories do count baby ..." Many confuse weight loss with fat loss-- two totally different things can go on there. Induction weight loss is mostly water [glycogen] and as you lose weight you naturally require less [calories]. Most dieters lose little body fat because they are always grazing-- an overnight fast is just not long enough to make a dent, 20 hours or more surely will.
Reply With Quote
  #21   ^
Old Sat, Jan-26-08, 20:38
time2doit time2doit is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 94
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 225/180/150 Female 66"
BF:
Progress: 60%
Location: Northern California
Default

Mike D and Kneebrace:

You are both very close to your goal weight and quite slim. Also, you are both fasters. Do you think that perhaps both things are true, depending on how close to goal weight you are? Namely, that calories don't count (or don't appear to be a factor) until you are close to you r goal weight.

Taubes seemed to give ample evidence of the irrelevance of calories to weight gain. Perhaps this information does not apply so well to weight loss. What both of you are saying about calories and fasting make conceptual sense to me, but my conceptual understanding of diet has taken quite a beating in my low-carb years. I'm not sure that I trust myself to be rational any more.

Meanwhile, the fewer carbs that I eat, the fewer calories I want. There seems to be a direct correlation for me. Also, it seems from reading Taubes that it would be impossible to estimate how many calories a person needs in any way other than watching to see if they lost weight.

I am also puzzled by the fact that people on a low-carb diet can lose body fat without exercise and without losing pounds. I have seen it happen, but I don't understand the mechanism.
Reply With Quote
  #22   ^
Old Sat, Jan-26-08, 22:55
mike_d's Avatar
mike_d mike_d is offline
Grease is the word!
Posts: 8,475
 
Plan: PSMF/IF
Stats: 236/181/180 Male 72 inches
BF:disappearing!
Progress: 98%
Location: Alamo city, Texas
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by time2doit
What both of you are saying about calories and fasting make conceptual sense to me, but my conceptual understanding of diet has taken quite a beating in my low-carb years. I'm not sure that I trust myself to be rational any more.
I can surely identify with that

Today all I had was a protein recovery shake after biking, right before dinner (300 calories tops)-- I wasn't hungry anymore after drinking it and walking the dog. I really thought about skipping dinner entirely tonight. I ate chicken, eggs and some greens anyway out of the fear of possible "muscle waisting" or causing a "starvation mode" or even metabolic injury due to low calories. I just finished a 48 hrs fast 4 days ago.

I am really not sure anymore how one can compare high vs. low carbohydrate diets and 3 meals vs. fasting as digestive efficiency can become a factor here. I really feel I can get by with less food these days -- but I am afraid to try it. I do believe on keeping my longer fasts under 48 effective hours to preserve muscle. I also get 80 grams of quality protein daily.
Reply With Quote
  #23   ^
Old Sat, Jan-26-08, 23:16
LessLiz's Avatar
LessLiz LessLiz is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 6,938
 
Plan: who knows
Stats: 337/204/180 Female 67 inches
BF:100% pure
Progress: 85%
Location: Pacific NW
Default

Quote:
Taubes seemed to give ample evidence of the irrelevance of calories to weight gain. Perhaps this information does not apply so well to weight loss.
I believe that is the case. I believe it because I have gone months at a time in ketosis without losing weight, I do not lose weight if I consume more than 1600 cals per day, and my weight loss is substantially faster at 1400 cals per day when eating the same carbs in the same amounts. I also note that in Protein Power Lifeplan, Eades says that there are people who do not lose weight on the diet because they eat too many calories of legal foods.

It isn't an effort for me to eat 1400 - 1600 cals a day LC. I am not hungry. If I eat low fat and 1600 cals I do not lose and at 1400 cals I lose about a pound per month, which is at least 1/3rd the rate I lose on low carb. At least for me, both what I eat and how much I eat matters.
Reply With Quote
  #24   ^
Old Sat, Jan-26-08, 23:24
mermaiden9's Avatar
mermaiden9 mermaiden9 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 356
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 163/129.4/133 Female 160cm
BF:28%
Progress: 112%
Location: Australia
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bsheets

Big Fat Omissions: Science, logic sorely lacking in pro-Atkins article

By Vance Lehmkuhl


Blah blah blah
Reply With Quote
  #25   ^
Old Sun, Jan-27-08, 07:08
kneebrace kneebrace is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 1,429
 
Plan: atkins/ IF
Stats: 162/128/130 Male 175
BF:
Progress: 106%
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ceberezin

Kneebrace - Taubes very specifically and very cleverly deflates the idea that a caloric deficit is necessary to burn fat, as has Eades and others. Check out Eades' blogs on Anthony Colpo.



That's just it, Ceberezin. Low Carbers seem to want to believe that he does. But I've read the book, and he doesn't. What he does do is explain how weight gain is hormonally mediated. So you can easily have a calorie surplus and not gain bodyfat - by not setting up a fat storage conducive hormonal environment with much insulin driving carbohydrate. And if you set up a fat storage conducive hormonal environment, and eat a calorie surplus you'll gain bodyfat very quickly. Even quicker if it's high fat and high carb. What he fails to mention is that if you have a calorie deficit and a fat storage hormonal environment (ie a carby diet), your body will just make its own hormonal arrangements and burn bodyfat anyway. That's why low calorie high carb diets still result in bodyfat loss, if the poor person doing it can cope with the constant hunger. He also ignores the considerable problem faced by low carbers who eat more than their bodies are expending and don't gain much weight, but don't lose any either, even though they are burning fat exclusively. The problem is it's all dietary fat, when what they really want to be burning is bodyfat.

The hapless Anthony Colpo's stoush with Mike Eades is very illuminating. Dr Eades main point is that the so called low carb 'metabolic advantage does indeed exist, but it is almonst infinitesimally small. Anthony Colpo is such a shmuck that he was incapable of wiping the foam away from his mouth for long enough to notice that Mike Eades wasn't even trying to make a case that Low carb diets were the best approach to bodyfat loss because of any metabolic advantage. They do so simply because of their natural tendency to produce a reduction in appetite and calories, and when the necessary calorie deficit is finally achieved (for all but a lucky few, with a certain degree of watchful portion control as well - also much easier on low carb), the fat burning enzyme machinery is primed and ready to work on mobilizing bodyfat.

Mike Eades has blogged in great detail about how important a calorie deficit is for bodyfat loss, on low carb no less than any other dietary approach, as well as commenting often and with great clinical and intellectual insight on how low carbing will enable most people to eat considerably more than their individual calorie equilibrium without gaining much bodyfat. As well as reiterating time and time again that a low carb dietary approach is the easiest and healthiest way to achieve a calorie deficit, and hence burn bodyfat.

In fact if you are in any doubt, you only need to ask him in the comments section of his blog. By all means quote this entire post and ask him specifically if there is anything which he disagrees with . I'm always glad to have much more articulate low carb spokespeople than I clarifying what all low carb clinicians have been observing in such detail for many decades.

Stuart
Reply With Quote
  #26   ^
Old Sun, Jan-27-08, 07:25
kneebrace kneebrace is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 1,429
 
Plan: atkins/ IF
Stats: 162/128/130 Male 175
BF:
Progress: 106%
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LC FP
kneebrace, you access bodyfat every night while you sleep. No matter what kind of diet you eat. 30-70% of your blood sugar present in the morning is new glucose, made by your liver overnight by gluconeogenesis from amino acids and fat.

But I admit, it doesn't take much fat and protien to synthesize 30-70% of a teaspoon of glucose, which is about the amount of glucose in your blood at any given time..


LC. your words ' No matter what kind of diet you eat ' rather proves my point doesn't it? Ie. regardless of the dietary approach, if your body needs a particular substrate, be it carbs fat or amino acids and there is no more available in your blood from your most recent meal (Ie you are in calorie deficit) it will muscle through the dietarily mediated hormonal environment, and make its own hormonal arrangements.

Sorry if you were posting in support of my earlier post. I can't quite tell. In any case, whatever your motivation, it seems to support it.

Stuart
Reply With Quote
  #27   ^
Old Sun, Jan-27-08, 08:07
kneebrace kneebrace is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 1,429
 
Plan: atkins/ IF
Stats: 162/128/130 Male 175
BF:
Progress: 106%
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by time2doit

Meanwhile, the fewer carbs that I eat, the fewer calories I want. There seems to be a direct correlation for me.


Time2, this is so true. But can you see that the calorie deficit is still the prerequisite for bodyfat loss?. Low carb simply makes it almost automatic. I say 'almost' because most people still need to exercise some portion control, over and above the natural appetite reduction induced by low carb - particularly if the LC food is very well prepared and shall we say 'irresistible', to achieve a calorie deficit. If you keep your LC food plain, it's certainly easier to not eat a calorie surplus. But eating is fun, and Low Carb food can definitely be soooo delicious.

I have never, not even once, read anyone reporting on this board that on low carb: 'Wow, my appetite is increasing, I'm eating so much more than before low carbing and still I'm losing bodyfat'. What you WILL hear people reporting many times every single day is : "It's amazing, if I ate this number of calories on higher carb, I'd be gaining, and although I'm not losing, I'm not gaining either". Or they will report, as Atkins, the Drs. Eades,Lutz, Krasnewski and every other low carb clinician have observed so closely over many decades: "It's amazing, I'm eating way less than before L.C. without ever feeling hungry, and I'm losing consistently. Why did it take me so long to find LC?".

Gary Taubes should have called his book by your words: 'The Fewer carbs I Eat, the Fewer calories I Want. Perhaps you can sell the title? Might I suggest a worthy subtitle: 'And all in perfect health'.

Quote:
Also, it seems from reading Taubes that it would be impossible to estimate how many calories a person needs in any way other than watching to see if they lost weight.



Bingo, that's exactly what will indicate when you are in calorie deficit. But the important thing to remember is that you can be in calorie deficit on any dietary approach, be it low , medium or high carb, because you can lose bodyfat on any dietary approach. It's just considerably easier and a damn sight healthier on low carb. I actually don't think there has ever been any doubt that low carb diets were the easiest to lose bodyfat on. But as Gary Taubes so inciseivly points out by examining the historical record, it has always also been thought to be a very unhealthy way to do so. What he shows so brilliantly, is that the actual evidence on which that unhealthy tag has been based is very scant indeed.

Quote:
I am also puzzled by the fact that people on a low-carb diet can lose body fat without exercise and without losing pounds. I have seen it happen, but I don't understand the mechanism.


As I understand it Time2, the mechanism is called muscle growth. One of the effects of a low carb dietary approach is improved 'nutrient partitioning', which is a fancy way of saying you grow muscle better. It's often said on this very board, 'don't worry about the pounds, worry about the inches'.

Stuart
Reply With Quote
  #28   ^
Old Sun, Jan-27-08, 08:25
kneebrace kneebrace is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 1,429
 
Plan: atkins/ IF
Stats: 162/128/130 Male 175
BF:
Progress: 106%
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LessLiz
I also note that in Protein Power Lifeplan, Eades says that there are people who do not lose weight on the diet because they eat too many calories of legal foods.

It isn't an effort for me to eat 1400 - 1600 cals a day LC. I am not hungry. If I eat low fat and 1600 cals I do not lose and at 1400 cals I lose about a pound per month, which is at least 1/3rd the rate I lose on low carb. At least for me, both what I eat and how much I eat matters.


Ceberezin, I would argue that LessLiz's situation pretty well describes the experience of the overwhelming majority of Low Carbers. There are always going to be outliers who can either eat prodigious amounts of even high carb food and still lose(which has always seemed like a great way to disappear entirely , or at the other end of the spectrum, eat practically no food, even low carb, and remain obese. But these people are the exceptions.

And FWIW, you might care to read either 'Protein Power Life Plan' or Mike Eades' blog a little more carefully. With all due respect, you don't seem to have a clue where he stands on the importance of calorie deficits for bodyfat loss on any dietary approach, low carb or otherwise. But as I suggested in another post, you could save yourself the effort and just ask him. Of course I quite understand that Mike Eades is in no way the final arbiter of either low carb or human metabolic wisdom. But you do seem to respect his opinion (as I do, immensely), so it would be a good starting point.

Stuart
Reply With Quote
  #29   ^
Old Sun, Jan-27-08, 10:24
deirdra's Avatar
deirdra deirdra is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,328
 
Plan: vLC/GF,CF,SF
Stats: 197/136/150 Female 66 inches
BF:
Progress: 130%
Location: Alberta
Default

I think the metabolic advantage depends on an individual's body chemistry/hormones; for me it has been in effect while losing and maintaining. "Normal" people may have no metabolic advantage when eating low carb; that does not mean it doesn't exist for anybody.

On high carb (65% cals from carbs, 25% protein, 10% fat) I lost 1lb/wk on 1100 cal iff I exercised 10 hrs/wk (lost nothing without exercise). I was starving all the time.

On low carb (65% cals from fat, 25% protein, 10% carbs) I lost 1lb/wk on 1900 cal if I exercised 0-1.5 hrs/wk. I was satisfied all the time.

If all calories were metabolically identical, I should have lost 3lbs/wk on the high carb diet with the extra 7000 calories/wk deficit (calories not eaten + calories expended in the extra 8.5 hrs of aerobic exercise/wk, conservatively estimated). The 1900 calories on LC DID provide enough of a deficit to lose 1lb/wk, but my body only behaves like a "normal" person's in terms of theoretical weight loss rates if I eat vLC.

Interestingly, 1900 cal/day is what a "normal" 136-lb person should maintain on (that is using the 14cal/lb rate for an active person, as opposed to the 12cal/lb for someone exercising as little as I was). I now maintain on 1900-2000 cals/day, but only if I eat no more than 35g ECC. If I eat that many calories on the SAD "standard american diet", I'll balloon back up to 180-190lbs in 2-3 months (I know because I did it about 20 times in 35 years of yo-yoing). Eating low carb is the only WOL that keeps my weight and relationship with food "normal", i.e. without constant hunger and cravings. I've been maintaining for 19 months now.

Last edited by deirdra : Sun, Jan-27-08 at 10:48.
Reply With Quote
  #30   ^
Old Sun, Jan-27-08, 11:44
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
Experimenter
Posts: 25,871
 
Plan: DDF
Stats: 202/185.4/179 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 72%
Location: San Diego, CA
Default

Quote:
Vance Lehmkuhl is a writer and political cartoonist for the Philadephia City Paper. A collection of his vegetarian cartoons is published as a book, "The Joy of Soy." Vance is featured as a speaker and entertainer at Vegetarian Summerfest.

Taubes let the evidence lead him to his conclusions, I'm thinking this guy let his conclusions lead him to his evidence.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:57.


Copyright © 2000-2024 Active Low-Carber Forums @ forum.lowcarber.org
Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.