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  #16   ^
Old Sat, Feb-09-02, 18:09
Natrushka Natrushka is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 11,512
 
Plan: IF +LC
Stats: 287/165/165 Female 66"
BF:
Progress: 100%
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pete
The diet I was on through Dr. Bernstein and with the help of my own doctor is not too different from what your describing.


Pete, I have been following the discussion that's been ongoing in the Plan Comparison SubForum and I beg to differ. What Karen described is a way of eating for life. One that heals and nurtures. There are no weekly 100$ fees or chastisement for falling out of ketosis. Fat loss is a byproduct of healing insulin insensitivity - there is no promise of 4 to 5 lbs to be lost a week. It is not a diet.

I would definitely call Dr. B's diet a 'diet' and 'a low fat diet' - "his theory is that by only eating roughly 900 calories a day, and by limiting your fat and carbs within those calories, your body is forced to burn the fat on it. " 900 calories isnt something a body can sustain - unless it weighs no more than 80 lbs.

Before comparing plans you should take the time to read what you're comparing it too - I am sure a copy of Protein Power is available from your local library.

Nat
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  #17   ^
Old Sat, Feb-09-02, 20:57
Andy Davies Andy Davies is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,212
 
Plan: My own (based on a compil
Stats: 333/260/224 Male 73 ins
BF:
Progress: 67%
Location: Hampshire, England
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Well Pete, you've made quite an impact here in the 24 hours since I replied to this thread before!

If it's any consolation, I did appreciate the irony in the word "vanity", and I do think there was some good material in that post.

What you now need to do is to read some of the books being recommended to you by my learned colleagues. If you have only read government guidelines and official statements, some of your comments are understandable. But please, even if only for the sake of balance, read and discover what researchers have learnt that the government do not tell you about.

And while I was pleased to see you had visited my "In the eyes of others" thread, I have had to set the record straight there as well.

I think in time you will become a very useful and helpful member here... you are certainly capable of making an impact!

Andy
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  #18   ^
Old Sun, Feb-10-02, 01:53
Pete Pete is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 82
 
Plan: Dr. Bernstein
Stats: 268/198/205
BF:
Progress: 111%
Location: Toronto, Canada
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Natrushka,

I certainly don't think the Dr. Bernstein "diet" phase is a maintenance phase or a way of life, certainly the doctors at the clinic don’t and neither does my regular doctor. Who in their right mind could think they can sustain a diet at 900 calories? No one advocated that to me either and I’m certainly not advocating it to anyone else. At first the “diet” is drastic yes, but I do think certain facets of it are very similar to the Protein Power Plan after you’ve reached your desired weight. Being careful about sugar and drinking alcohol, and moderating your intake of starchy foods like bread and potatoes, excercising more, is something I’ve had a discussion about with my regular doctor and the doctors at the Bernstein clinic – they both recommended restricting my carbohydrate intake based on my previous inclination to eat food with high sugar content. I went through the impact and role of insulin in the body for quite some time with them. I have moved onto a way of eating for life that seems quite similar to the Protein Power Plan. You don’t go to the clinic for $100 a week and play cards.

Anyways, as I’ve reiterated previously, I wasn’t trying to make any comment about a low carb “diet” per se. I don’t want to read anymore about how to diet and moderate my intake of carbohydrates. I’ve discussed it with my doctors – I understand the implications. My real point, as has been reinforced by your post and Karen’s is that the “defensive” arguments come up every time I try to get to the heart of the matter, which is being honest with ourselves and doing something about it. Actually, I think these posts are almost comical now. I write about how many Americans are overweight and Karen writes that our North American diet, heavy in carbohydrates, is a “disease”. More double speak. What disease? Eating poorly may cause disease, but it’s a lack of education and yes, (dare I say it) will power that’s contributing to disease. Eating too many french fries is not analogous to leukemia. You talk about a way of life that heals and nurtures and try to imply I’m advocating living on 900 calories. I’m talking about getting off our asses, stop making excuses, exercising more, caring about how we look so we can help ourselves get healthier, and stop wasting time explaining why there are real reasons you can’t trust a weigh scale. Who do we think we’re kidding? I kidded myself for years.

Rather than pick every sentence apart, why not take the discussion into something more positive? That is really, for once and for all, what the post is all about. It’s not about wading into “low-carb” parlance and getting shot at. I don’t want to do that anymore. I never intended to do it. How do you find ways to exercise? How do you deal with the cravings you have, for food you should moderate? How do you motivate yourself? How do you help yourself?

I think caring about how you look and being thinner can help some people get healthy. That’s all, nothing more than that.

Last edited by Pete : Sun, Feb-10-02 at 02:17.
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  #19   ^
Old Sun, Feb-10-02, 07:42
Natrushka Natrushka is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 11,512
 
Plan: IF +LC
Stats: 287/165/165 Female 66"
BF:
Progress: 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Pete
I think caring about how you look and being thinner can help some people get healthy. That’s all, nothing more than that.


And I think caring too much about how you look and wanting to be too thin can turn women in to anorexics and bullemics. And I still think that you just do not 'get it' - If it were as easy as going on a calorie restricted diet and exercising more I would never have ended up here. I am not a carb addict. I have more will power than anyone I know. It's 8:a.m. on Sunday morning and I could be snuggling under the covers right now - I'm here printing off my workout so I can go lift weights. I am not lazy and I do not eat too much - nor did I to get FAT. I ate by Health Canada guidelines - I ate low fat, I restricted calories, I worked out twice a day for 45 minutes at moderate aerobic intensity. I got FATTER. I had a great cardio profile and my blood lipids were the envy of anyone - but I was still FAT. In the 6 months that I have been following a LC WOL, where I was encouraged to eat when I was hungry and came to educate myself as to the nature of insulin resistance and the ignorance of most medical professionals, I have lost over 68 lbs, 13% of my BF and gained muscle mass. I can now sleep through the nigth unintereupted. I am stronger. I am healthier - my lipid profile has improved. I eat 1600 - 1900 calories a day.

And I still maintain that you do not 'get it' and it appears you never will. This is a LC support forum. This insn't weight watchers.

Nat
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  #20   ^
Old Sun, Feb-10-02, 09:56
Pete Pete is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 82
 
Plan: Dr. Bernstein
Stats: 268/198/205
BF:
Progress: 111%
Location: Toronto, Canada
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Quote:
And I think caring too much about how you look and wanting to be too thin can turn women in to anorexics and bullemics.


I think that's judgemental, discriminatory and too far reaching. Driving a car can kill you if you fall asleep at the wheel. What's your point? I can't figure out your point. My point is, thinking about my appearance helped me changed my WOL, I guess you think that's bad.

I know its a LC support forum and not weight watchers. And I think educating ourselves about insulin resistance is very good. I did it too. I admire you for adopting a certain WOL and getting healthier. Now how did you motivate yourself to do that?

Last edited by Pete : Sun, Feb-10-02 at 10:09.
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  #21   ^
Old Sun, Feb-10-02, 10:07
Natrushka Natrushka is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 11,512
 
Plan: IF +LC
Stats: 287/165/165 Female 66"
BF:
Progress: 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Pete
I can't figure out your point.


That much is obvious. My POINT is that the focus should not be on 'thin' and getting there by any means possible. The focus should be on 'health' and being comfortable with who you are - not trying to conform to what society has decided you should look like. I am not doing this to be 'thin' or to weigh less. I am doing this to be strong and lean and healthy.

N
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  #22   ^
Old Sun, Feb-10-02, 10:10
Pete Pete is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 82
 
Plan: Dr. Bernstein
Stats: 268/198/205
BF:
Progress: 111%
Location: Toronto, Canada
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I never said thin. You did. How about thinner?
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  #23   ^
Old Sun, Feb-10-02, 10:27
Natrushka Natrushka is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 11,512
 
Plan: IF +LC
Stats: 287/165/165 Female 66"
BF:
Progress: 100%
Default

You said "thinner". You can be 'thin' and still have all kinds of body fat. Losing 4 - 5 lbs a week will make you thin - it wont make you lean. It most certainly will not make you 'healthy'. Losing muscle mass makes you lighter and proportionally fatter. It lowers your metabolism. Being 'thin' shouldn't be a goal - not at the expense of being healthy.

Nat
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  #24   ^
Old Sun, Feb-10-02, 12:56
Andy Davies Andy Davies is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,212
 
Plan: My own (based on a compil
Stats: 333/260/224 Male 73 ins
BF:
Progress: 67%
Location: Hampshire, England
Default

Pete, I'd like to make two suggestions: firstly that you start up a journal of your own, under the "P" section of the Bootcamp/Journals sub-forum, and secondly that you read Nat's. Her journal is the most viewed thread on this entire forum, and it is massively popular among members as a source of information and inspiration. You want to know about Nat's motivation, when she was persuing this way of life? All you have to do is visit her journal and read about it.

Andy
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  #25   ^
Old Sun, Feb-10-02, 14:00
Pete Pete is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 82
 
Plan: Dr. Bernstein
Stats: 268/198/205
BF:
Progress: 111%
Location: Toronto, Canada
Default

I see. So your empirical research tells you “Losing 4 - 5 lbs a week will make you thin - it won’t make you lean.” Maybe true, but you see, your doing it again, your getting defensive. I’m not advocating losing 4 - 5 lbs a week or not being lean. How did that get into the discussion? I guess when I used to grab my stomach with two hands and there was a lot left over some of that could have been muscle. Okay, sure. It didn’t feel like muscle or look like muscle, but I’ll go with you on that. I’m glad I don’t have that much particular muscle any more.

I think you’re really objecting to me using projected imagery of a societal “norm” as you refer to it, as a means to an end – the end being healthy, and maybe my method of weight loss too, which I can understand. But I’m not advocating my specific method to anyone – although I think managing carbs is a very good thing as others have pointed out. You make the point that thinner is not necessarily healthier. I understand that. I’m just talking about what motivated me to get healthier. Being lean and well toned is certainly in my imagery, maybe I expressed it as thinner, (here we go with the choice of words thing again) but I’m with you on this. Your right, it should be healthy. I think I said that about 5 posts ago. But my view of it is; that when you get leaner, healthier, whichever way you express it, if you’re very overweight, you’ll probably lose weight (hopefully fat) and look thinner (leaner) when you accomplish that. I assume that’s why everyone around here lists their weight. And to me, I think I look better leaner, so that helped me. We can rationalize anything. Sure, I could be 290 lbs and have a lot of muscle - but I’m not playing professional football. Okay? Vanity; its a play on words, a pun. Time for a truce.
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  #26   ^
Old Sun, Feb-10-02, 14:03
Pete Pete is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 82
 
Plan: Dr. Bernstein
Stats: 268/198/205
BF:
Progress: 111%
Location: Toronto, Canada
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Andy,

Thanks for the suggestion. I will read Nat's but I don't think I'll do my own.

Gotta go ride my bike.
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  #27   ^
Old Sun, Feb-10-02, 14:31
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Karen Karen is offline
Forum Founder
Posts: 12,775
 
Plan: Ketogenic
Stats: -/-/- Female 5 feet 4 inches
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Vancouver
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This forum is bulging with threads, journals and posts that are full of motivation, inspiration, hard facts, basics and great philosophical discussion.

You're right Pete. This is getting comical to the point of being pointless. I'm taking my leave of this thread.

Karen
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  #28   ^
Old Sun, Feb-10-02, 20:10
Andy Davies Andy Davies is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,212
 
Plan: My own (based on a compil
Stats: 333/260/224 Male 73 ins
BF:
Progress: 67%
Location: Hampshire, England
Default

Pete,

Just a few words of advice, intended for your own benefit. Things that we men write up are taken differently by women, and I am now aware that your words on this forum have been considered confrontational and aggressive by some of my colleagues. Indeed, they have caused offence and distress.

We welcome anybody here to come and talk about low-carb topics, and partake of our teaching and learning, supporting and being supported "family". But we do expect people to conduct themselves in a way which is not offensive to others. It could be that you are not accustomed to interacting with women, or do not realise how your remarks are being received. I guess what I am saying is that if you were a footballer, I'd be holding up a yellow card.

Andy
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  #29   ^
Old Sun, Feb-10-02, 20:50
Natrushka Natrushka is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 11,512
 
Plan: IF +LC
Stats: 287/165/165 Female 66"
BF:
Progress: 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Andy Davies
Things that we men write up are taken differently by women, and I am now aware that your words on this forum have been considered confrontational and aggressive by some of my colleagues. It could be that you are not accustomed to interacting with women, or do not realise how your remarks are being received.



The implication of this statement, Andy, is that it is necessary to 'talk differently' or 'talk down' to us and that we, as women, are unable to handle a confrontational and/or aggressive situation. That only women found this thread offensive is an assumption that we both know is false. Only women responded - 3 of us to be exact. I would prefer the words "grossly unresearched" in place of 'confrontational' and "dismissive" in place of 'aggressive'. You could probably work 'patronizing' in there somewhere as well.

Nat
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  #30   ^
Old Sun, Feb-10-02, 21:31
Pete Pete is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 82
 
Plan: Dr. Bernstein
Stats: 268/198/205
BF:
Progress: 111%
Location: Toronto, Canada
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Actually Andy, I think I agree with Nat on this one. I think you stepped in it there. So is there a double standard here as Nat suggests? What is the double standard?

If you read all my posts, do you think I was purposely being offensive? I wasn’t trying to be. I did write:

“Well, I think I've overdone it. I certainly didn't intend my original post to be antagonistic. I think I'll call it quits. My apologies if I have inadvertently offended anyone, that was not my intention.

What about Nat's posts in response to mine - any aggression there? Do you think all women would be offended with me? By the way, I think five women responded and a few wrote they found it inspiring. What about when Nat wrote:

“And I think caring too much about how you look and wanting to be too thin can turn women in to anorexics and bullemics”.

Hmmm, I’m not sure how all women or men would react to that. I certainly didn’t like that. It smacks of reverse discrimination.

Nat writes:

“Grossly unresearched.”

I WASN’T as I’ve written, I don’t know how many times, writing a term paper on low-carb diets. Nat wants to keep coming back to that. I acknowledge she’s got me beat on the subject – hands down, no contest.

Look, thank you both for responding to my post, I’m sorry if I’ve offended you, I wasn’t trying to do that. I apologize. It did lead to some lively discussion and that was good. I take your points: truce, truce! Stop shooting.
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