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  #31   ^
Old Wed, Aug-01-07, 16:26
pauleo pauleo is offline
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Posts: 486
 
Plan: -
Stats: -/-/- Male -
BF:
Progress: 25%
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Thanks again, that's all food for thought. Just have to figure out what to do with that 20 minute rest period at the gym now!
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  #32   ^
Old Wed, Aug-01-07, 16:38
lfchanin's Avatar
lfchanin lfchanin is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 66
 
Plan: Protein Power, Bernstein
Stats: 157/157/165 Male 6'0"
BF:17.2%/10.3%/10%
Progress: 0%
Location: Sarasota, Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pauleo
Thanks again, that's all food for thought. Just have to figure out what to do with that 20 minute rest period at the gym now!


Hi Paul,

Drink lots of water.

Larry
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  #33   ^
Old Wed, Aug-01-07, 17:46
RobLL RobLL is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,648
 
Plan: generalized low carb
Stats: 205/180/185 Male 67
BF:31%/14?%/12%
Progress: 125%
Location: Pacific Northwest
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Ifchanin - up until a few weeks ago I controlled BGs soley by low, almost no carbing. I now am taking Metformin, just had dose upped to 1000 mg. I think I need to be on insulin. I had some phase one response as of last year, but generally my BGs have gone down hill in the last year. I just started metering, against Dr's wishes the end of December.
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  #34   ^
Old Wed, Aug-01-07, 18:41
lfchanin's Avatar
lfchanin lfchanin is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 66
 
Plan: Protein Power, Bernstein
Stats: 157/157/165 Male 6'0"
BF:17.2%/10.3%/10%
Progress: 0%
Location: Sarasota, Florida
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobLL
Ifchanin - up until a few weeks ago I controlled BGs soley by low, almost no carbing. I now am taking Metformin, just had dose upped to 1000 mg. I think I need to be on insulin. I had some phase one response as of last year, but generally my BGs have gone down hill in the last year. I just started metering, against Dr's wishes the end of December.


Hi Rob,

Since you have an insulin response I definately think you should do everything you can to avoid spiking your blood glucose during exercise. So I think you should seriously considering avoiding HIIT and rest between weight lifting sets. Take your glucose meter with you to your workouts and monitor how the exercise is effecting your control and adjust accordingly.

I haven't closely followed the subject of type II diabetics taking insulin, but I imagine that it is highly controversial. For Dr. Berstein maintaining tight control with the help of insulin is a no-brainer, since he must take insulin to live. For type II diabetics I don't think its all that straight-forward a decision. He states that it helps the pancreas rest, but others suggest that it leads to increased insulin resistance. I certainly haven't ruled out taking insulin at some point if I need to, but I haven't figured out what my average fasting blood glucose levels would have to be to induce me to go that route.

After my bout with cancer I've become more conciencious about my health and I've just recently taken steps to tighten my glucose control. So I've started exercising, drastically reduced my carbs, and increased my Metformin dose to one 500 mg extended release with each meal (it was 1000 mg in the morning). My control is improving, but its difficult because I am trying to gain weight and my caloric intake is high.

When you stay you started metering against Dr's wishes, are you saying that your doctor disapproved of you monitoring your daily blood glucose? If so, it sounds like you need to look for an other doctor.

Good luck.

Larry
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  #35   ^
Old Thu, Aug-02-07, 08:27
pauleo pauleo is offline
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Posts: 486
 
Plan: -
Stats: -/-/- Male -
BF:
Progress: 25%
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an argument for staying properly hydrated during exercise. written by a person with type I diabetes but presumably it applies to anyone.

----------------------
http://sarahdiabeticmusings.blogspo...cise-highs.html
The second of these is ketones. Your body releases ketones when you are burning fat/muscle rather than available carbs in your bloodstream. The possibility of this happening was actually brought to my attention by Scott over at Scott’s Diabetes Journal, and I was so intrigued by it I had to test it out on myself! Sure enough, after an especially long and hard workout, I had quite a bit of ketones! I’m actually amazed that this isn’t something my doctor hasn’t brought up as it sure drives home what I try to enforce anyhow when working out: DRINK MORE WATER! The presence of ketones will make you resistant to insulin, helping to feed that high you may already be heading for because of unabsorbed carbs! Hopefully this will help to reduce those ketones in the blood stream. Do not let yourself get dehydrated during a workout; the highs are rough to recover from!
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  #36   ^
Old Thu, Aug-02-07, 13:59
lfchanin's Avatar
lfchanin lfchanin is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 66
 
Plan: Protein Power, Bernstein
Stats: 157/157/165 Male 6'0"
BF:17.2%/10.3%/10%
Progress: 0%
Location: Sarasota, Florida
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pauleo
an argument for staying properly hydrated during exercise. written by a person with type I diabetes but presumably it applies to anyone.

----------------------
http://sarahdiabeticmusings.blogspo...cise-highs.html
The second of these is ketones. Your body releases ketones when you are burning fat/muscle rather than available carbs in your bloodstream. The possibility of this happening was actually brought to my attention by Scott over at Scott’s Diabetes Journal, and I was so intrigued by it I had to test it out on myself! Sure enough, after an especially long and hard workout, I had quite a bit of ketones! I’m actually amazed that this isn’t something my doctor hasn’t brought up as it sure drives home what I try to enforce anyhow when working out: DRINK MORE WATER! The presence of ketones will make you resistant to insulin, helping to feed that high you may already be heading for because of unabsorbed carbs! Hopefully this will help to reduce those ketones in the blood stream. Do not let yourself get dehydrated during a workout; the highs are rough to recover from!


Hi Paul,

Apparently the subject of ketosis, especially for diabetics, is somewhat controversial.

I'm going to continue to research the subject, but here's an article that's 180 degrees from the opinion that you quoted.

The Insulin-Smart Life Extension Program

Here's an excerpt:

Quote:
Dietary Ketosis Accelerates Results

Some life extension experts are taking the low glycemic approach to an extreme -- with excellent results. Very low carbohydrate diets such as the well-known Atkins diet produce a state of benign dietary ketosis (BDK), which has been found to have an exceptionally rejuvenating effect on the biological terrain. The consumption of about thirty or fewer carbohydrates a day may promote a myriad of advantages, including longevity and weight loss, and the reversal many of the conditions associated with aging. The BDK diet has all the benefits of the low glycemic diet, and also offsets cravings, discourages yeast infections (candida), balances mood disorders, and reverses heart disease. (4)

Being in ketosis is the quickest, safest, and healthiest way to control hyperinsulinism and burn off excess body fat. The key to its effectiveness is a shift in the body's fuel supply. Several studies have shown that as carbohydrate intake is sufficiently lowered, the metabolism shifts from a glucose-based energy supply to one that utilizes the body's own fat. This mechanism, called lipolysis, occurs during sleep, fasting, and when insulin levels are low. (6)

After two days without carbohydrates, the absence of glucose induces lower insulin levels which cause the desirable metabolic shift. As lipolysis begins, the body enters into ketosis. First, fats (triglycerides) are split into glycerol and free fatty acids. These are then broken down into simple compounds called ketone bodies, which in turn are used as fuel by the brain and muscle.

The degree of fat utilization can be inferred by measuring blood or urine levels of ketones. The level of ketones in the urine can be measured at home with Ketostix®, which are available over-the-counter (OTC) at any pharmacy. A slight state of ketosis is reflected by a light peach color. The more ketones that are released, the deeper the state of ketosis, and the darker the shade of the stick. Purple, which reflects the deepest state of ketosis, also indicates that maximum fat loss is occurring. However since insufficient water intake can cause concentrated urine (and the false impression of elevated ketones), it is important to drink plenty of water when following this diet.

The basis of the BDK diet is proteins, fats and very low carbohydrate-containing foods, with meals consisting of eggs, fish, fowl, meat, cheese, dairy cream, non-starchy vegetables, herbs, and spices. Breakfast might consist of an egg and cheese omelette with a side of bacon; lunch, a tuna salad with greens and creamy dressing; and for dinner, steak and lobster drenched with butter and a side of sauteed broccoli. It is surprisingly simple to follow, and is satisfying as well. (4)


The above article seems to be more in line with many, perhaps most, of the other Low-Carber forum members.

Larry
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  #37   ^
Old Thu, Aug-02-07, 17:17
RobLL RobLL is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,648
 
Plan: generalized low carb
Stats: 205/180/185 Male 67
BF:31%/14?%/12%
Progress: 125%
Location: Pacific Northwest
Default metering EX and HIIT

Hi Larry - I started two or three days ago with my higher Metformin dose. It was nice to see my morning and after breakfast reading at 92, hasn't been there for a couple months. So I took my meter to the gym. Here is the workout and the results. Incidentally the workout is Escalating Density Training, two exercises alternately for 15 minutes, the goal being to get more done each time.

************
Starting BGs 92
Warm up with some Mag Mob easy, and pulldowns at 140,160,180 lbs

Superset chinup and pushups with feet on a bench. Total time was 15 minutes. Rests started at 30 seconds. I narrowed my grip this time from outer shoulder to inner shoulder, and started with:

4 sets of 3 chinups and 6 pushups
7 sets of 2 chinups and 6 pushups
2 sets of 1 chinup and 3 pushups. ran out of time.

Total pushups in 15 minutes: 28, four more than previous record. Yeh!
BGs 117

My back was a little sore, so I passed on my second superset of squats and deadlifts, and did HIIT, running. I only did 3/4 a mile in running mode, and ran a little slow given achy back.

3 laps of trot/walk to warm up
10 1/2 sets of 1 lap fast, 1 lap walk
2 lap cool off
BGs 120

(14 laps is a mile)

Sauna, to Library for a while, home and 1 1/2 hour later

BGs at 118

Interesting. Not so high so as to scare me, but will see how long they take to get under a hundred.
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  #38   ^
Old Thu, Aug-02-07, 18:25
Cajunboy47 Cajunboy47 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,900
 
Plan: Eat Fat, Get Thin
Stats: 212/162/155 Male 68 "
BF:32/23.5/23.5
Progress: 88%
Location: Breaux Bridge, La
Default

Rob,

I notice your BG is still going up after exercise. You took Metformin and it still rises after exercise.

A couple of questions:

1. Are you eating a high protein breakfast?

2. If you didn't exercise, would your BG still rise like that?
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  #39   ^
Old Thu, Aug-02-07, 19:23
RobLL RobLL is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,648
 
Plan: generalized low carb
Stats: 205/180/185 Male 67
BF:31%/14?%/12%
Progress: 125%
Location: Pacific Northwest
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cajunboy47
Rob,

I notice your BG is still going up after exercise. You took Metformin and it still rises after exercise.

A couple of questions:

1. Are you eating a high protein breakfast?

2. If you didn't exercise, would your BG still rise like that?


Three eggs, and quite small pork steak, big hunk of raw cabbage

Generally up or down 10 points from whatever FBG was. Always goes up with exercise - light, medium, heavy.
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  #40   ^
Old Thu, Aug-02-07, 20:01
lfchanin's Avatar
lfchanin lfchanin is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 66
 
Plan: Protein Power, Bernstein
Stats: 157/157/165 Male 6'0"
BF:17.2%/10.3%/10%
Progress: 0%
Location: Sarasota, Florida
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobLL
Hi Larry - I started two or three days ago with my higher Metformin dose. It was nice to see my morning and after breakfast reading at 92, hasn't been there for a couple months. So I took my meter to the gym. Here is the workout and the results. Incidentally the workout is Escalating Density Training, two exercises alternately for 15 minutes, the goal being to get more done each time.

************
Starting BGs 92
Warm up with some Mag Mob easy, and pulldowns at 140,160,180 lbs

Superset chinup and pushups with feet on a bench. Total time was 15 minutes. Rests started at 30 seconds. I narrowed my grip this time from outer shoulder to inner shoulder, and started with:

4 sets of 3 chinups and 6 pushups
7 sets of 2 chinups and 6 pushups
2 sets of 1 chinup and 3 pushups. ran out of time.

Total pushups in 15 minutes: 28, four more than previous record. Yeh!
BGs 117

My back was a little sore, so I passed on my second superset of squats and deadlifts, and did HIIT, running. I only did 3/4 a mile in running mode, and ran a little slow given achy back.

3 laps of trot/walk to warm up
10 1/2 sets of 1 lap fast, 1 lap walk
2 lap cool off
BGs 120

(14 laps is a mile)

Sauna, to Library for a while, home and 1 1/2 hour later

BGs at 118

Interesting. Not so high so as to scare me, but will see how long they take to get under a hundred.


Hi Rob,

Glad to hear that the Metformin is helping, but if your blood glucose is increasing while exercising it means to improve control you need to rest between sets. I realize that this is counter to your Escalating Density Training rationale, but that training obviously wasn't designed to improve the blood glucose control of diabetics. And, as I mentioned, neither is HIIT.

If you're satisfied with these rises fine, but personally I would modify my routines. As diabetics we have to balance sometimes conflicting objectives. As I mentioned, in my case my desire to gain lean body weight conflicts with my desire for glucose control.

Take care.

Larry
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  #41   ^
Old Thu, Aug-02-07, 20:13
lfchanin's Avatar
lfchanin lfchanin is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 66
 
Plan: Protein Power, Bernstein
Stats: 157/157/165 Male 6'0"
BF:17.2%/10.3%/10%
Progress: 0%
Location: Sarasota, Florida
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobLL
In just the past couple months I have gone from about 115 to 130 after either weight lifting or HIIT


Hi Rob,

I believe as your Escalating Density Training and HIIT routines continue to compress more exercise into a given duration, you will find that this trend will, continue despite the Metformin.

As I described earlier, during really intense exercise your insulin response is turned off. So it won't matter much that Metformin has improved your insulin sensitivity if there's little insulin to work on while you're exercising. Only during recovery does the insulin response return and with it the benefits of Metformin. That's why we need to rest to permit the insulin and Metformin to work.

Larry
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  #42   ^
Old Thu, Aug-02-07, 20:25
Cajunboy47 Cajunboy47 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,900
 
Plan: Eat Fat, Get Thin
Stats: 212/162/155 Male 68 "
BF:32/23.5/23.5
Progress: 88%
Location: Breaux Bridge, La
Default

Hi Rob,

I just want to touch base on that rising BG during exercise. I had asked you if your numbers go up or down when you don't exercise and when you stated "generally goes up or down", so I assume that was your answer for what happens on the non-exercise mornings.

I don't think 10 points up during exercise is anything to worry in the short term, but long term it may present a problem... I don't do weight training, have no opinion on it other than it isn't for me.., but I walk a lot and if my BG would go up each time I walk, I would get extremely worried as to why, even if it is just a 10 point rise.

I've heard several folks mention that resting between sets can alleviate the rise. Have you tried resting between sets and if you did, does it make a difference?
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  #43   ^
Old Fri, Aug-03-07, 11:40
RobLL RobLL is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,648
 
Plan: generalized low carb
Stats: 205/180/185 Male 67
BF:31%/14?%/12%
Progress: 125%
Location: Pacific Northwest
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cajunboy47
Hi Rob,

I just want to touch base on that rising BG during exercise. I had asked you if your numbers go up or down when you don't exercise and when you stated "generally goes up or down", so I assume that was your answer for what happens on the non-exercise mornings.

I don't think 10 points up during exercise is anything to worry in the short term, but long term it may present a problem... I don't do weight training, have no opinion on it other than it isn't for me.., but I walk a lot and if my BG would go up each time I walk, I would get extremely worried as to why, even if it is just a 10 point rise.

I've heard several folks mention that resting between sets can alleviate the rise. Have you tried resting between sets and if you did, does it make a difference?


The ten to twenty is days I don't do heavy exercise. Weightlifting and HIIT seem to be good for a 20-30 point jump. I have not experimented with rests between sets, although I intend to.
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  #44   ^
Old Sun, Aug-05-07, 21:43
RobLL RobLL is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,648
 
Plan: generalized low carb
Stats: 205/180/185 Male 67
BF:31%/14?%/12%
Progress: 125%
Location: Pacific Northwest
Default

Saturday -more rest between sets:
eight sets of stenuous mobility moves
hard swiss ball bridging exercise
4 sets (two each side) of stepups, 10 reps per, 30 lb DB each hand

Medium Intensity Intervals
2 minutes warm up
80% normal max 30 seconds
60% normal max 30 seconds
60 seconds easy pace and tension
Repeated intervals a total of 5 times
2 minutes cool off

BGs were 105 earlier in the afternoon, and 93 when I got home



Sunday, Normal or no rest between sets.
Today I took 200 mg of ALA and 500 Evening Primrose before I did exercise at the gym,
EDT pushups and chinups,
and because my back was a little sore only did 2 sets each deadlift and squats, with 1 minute between sets.

WhenI left home BGs were 102,when I got home my BGs were 100.


So thanks Ifchanin, for the heads up. I think I am finding a couple ways to avoid getting a BG rise.
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  #45   ^
Old Mon, Aug-06-07, 09:07
lfchanin's Avatar
lfchanin lfchanin is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 66
 
Plan: Protein Power, Bernstein
Stats: 157/157/165 Male 6'0"
BF:17.2%/10.3%/10%
Progress: 0%
Location: Sarasota, Florida
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobLL
So thanks Ifchanin, for the heads up. I think I am finding a couple ways to avoid getting a BG rise.


Hi Rob,

I'm glad things are working for you.

Live healthy.

Larry
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