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  #76   ^
Old Fri, Apr-20-07, 17:44
kneebrace kneebrace is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ProteusOne
Kneebrace, you're preaching. I have a different take on "evolutionary logic" than you do and I really don't care whether you understand/respect that or not. But there's no need to be rude. Read all the posts here. You'll see that I often accept even those ideas (and even this one) that I don't particularly like at first. Where is your iota of evidence? Evidence is a difficult thing to come by; it's not as if diet + outcome = 2 + 2.

And, btw, there is absolutely nothing wrong with having a conservative approach to your own health, so long as you are willing to change when the need arises. There is something, however, wrong with believing your viewpoint is regarded as "the best of all possible worlds."


I'm sorry you're offended Proteus. But if you are going to make what IMHO are nonsensical statements, the spirit of this forum is best served by vigorous debate, not limp generalizations about 'doing what is best for you' etc.

No, not preaching Proteus, but I am taking you to task on two very important flaws in your argument(s) about whether IF (practiced as currently discussed on this forum and elsewhere- ie up to 48 hrs with the eat days well fed with adequate protein and fat) is a good idea for health and sustained bodyfat loss.

(1) You don't even really seem to understand what IF means. It has nothing to do with scarcity. And over the time frame calorie restriction occurs (ie < 48hrs) has not been shown to have a slowing effect on metabolic rate. Saying that it might, because longer term calorie restriction can (even moderate calorie restriction, not even fasting) is pretty silly (again IMHO). You might as well suggest that it may well increase metabolic rate. And quoting Andrew Weil completely out of context with the current discussion - maple syrup and what was it, lemon juice? Really Proteus - is frankly insulting to the standard of the debate.

(2) You seem to think that Palaeolithic humans would have enjoyed several regular meals, every day. As I said, there is universal agreement among prominent human evolutionary biologists that intermittent fasting is a simple reality of hunter gatherer life. In my own country, traditionally living Aborigines still usually eat once a day. It's a big meal, and it's a hearty celebration of food and community. But it's still intermittent fasting. And they've been doing it for at least 40,000 yrs. So here it is again, IMHO regular meals are a neolithic distortion of the overwhelming bulk of human evolution. Now you may like eating regular meals. Many people do. But it has nothing to do with evolutionary logic.

Suggesting that it does Proteus, invites debate. And you are right, your idea of evolutionary logic obviously differs from mine. That's what I'm doing. Pointing out where I think you are mistaken. Don't be insulted by that. Either stick with your (IMHO misguided) logic or amend it. But please, grow up. I respect your opinion. But that certainly doesn't mean I will shrink from the opportunity of exposing the inaccuracies it is based on. I hope you are mature enough to do the same without reaching for the 'rudeness' accusation.
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  #77   ^
Old Fri, Apr-20-07, 18:32
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ProteusOne ProteusOne is offline
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I think you have your mind made up, and that's okay (IMHO misguided) as well. I too enjoy vigorous debate, and it's one of the reasons I like this place, because folks seems to be able to do that without being rude, well sometimes (IMHO) . No, I don't back up against the wall with a you're-being-rude argument, nor do I back down from bullies, in person or on the net.

You seem to be very good at shooting down my argument, and I respect you for that. I happen to disagree with some of what you say, but not as much as you may think, and I'm happy to be here debating you, whether I "lose" that debate or not.

I will give you something, take it or leave it; you have made me look more closely at IFing, and I understand more now than I did before.

As for insulting this forum, I don't think so. But if anyone who reads this and thinks that I did insult the group or any individual (besides you, kneebrace), please let me know and I will sincerely apologise to all.
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  #78   ^
Old Sat, Apr-21-07, 06:33
kneebrace kneebrace is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ProteusOne
....nor do I back down from bullies, in person or on the net.


There you go again, Proteus,getting nasty. Kindly stick to the subject and avoid the personal slurs. I've been 'rude' and now I stand accused of bullying. Luckily I don't feel the need to get personal. This is an interesting subject and denigrating a member of this discussion is regrettable. If I've highlighted the yawning chasms in your logic, then please refrain from getting defensive or personal. If I haven't, then your descent into vindictiveness is all the more unfortunate.

Quote:
As for insulting this forum, I don't think so. But if anyone who reads this and thinks that I did insult the group or any individual (besides you, kneebrace), please let me know and I will sincerely apologise to all.


Proteus, if you read my earlier post a little more carefully you will notice that I described your quoting of Andrew Weil's opinion about something wholly unconnected with IF'ing as 'insulting the standard of debate', not a person or persons participating in this discussion.

Look Proteus, we all feel tempted to lash out vindictively when somebody draws attention to rather obvious (IMHO) gaps in their logic. But hopefully it might help you curb further temptation by me just sticking to the actual discussion.

Last edited by kneebrace : Sat, Apr-21-07 at 09:38.
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  #79   ^
Old Sat, Apr-21-07, 07:01
pauleo pauleo is offline
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IF-ers - it seems that there are differing IF-cycles. Since adopting paleo eating, I drifted toward having a big breakfast, very light lunch, and an evening meal that is now smaller than breakfast. Not deliberate, it just went in the direction. And if I try IF, I think I would prefer a cycle with a big meal at breakfast-time.

What are your opinions on IF-ing with breakfast as the mealtime? I ask because there seems to be most support for evening meals during IF. People seem to be saying that paleolithic people would have had their meals in the evening (I'm not convinced of that - is there evidence? - if a tribal group killed an animal at 10am would they deliberately wait till evening to eat it?), and that you anyway sleep better if you are not feeling hungry.

Well those are arguments for evening mealtimes, but does anyone have experience/opinions on the different IF cycles?
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  #80   ^
Old Sat, Apr-21-07, 07:07
capo capo is offline
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I fast during the day and eat a big meal at dinnertime. Honestly, I feel sleepy after I eat (even with low carb and high fat), and very alert when I haven't eaten.

I think my way works for me. And if eating a big breakfast and nothing the rest of the day works for you, then go with it. I hate it when people tell other people their WOE is wrong..as I've been experiencing a little bit of that lately when I stray out of my usual IF threads and vitamin D thread. So, eat the way that you feel best, and don't let others deter you.
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  #81   ^
Old Sat, Apr-21-07, 07:24
capo capo is offline
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oops, double post.

Is there anyway to just delete this?

Last edited by capo : Sat, Apr-21-07 at 08:15.
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  #82   ^
Old Sat, Apr-21-07, 07:33
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Lucysdream Lucysdream is offline
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Maybe I should mind my own business, but Kneebrace, I think you're being a little hard on Proteus One. I can understand how you feel because I think Proteus One could have characterized the situation a little better. But as a third person, I can verify that your written word comes off a bit strong. I think your wealth of knowledge, which is clear, might be less intimidating in smaller doses. But I for one appreciate the discussion here. We're all sort of figuring out what works for us by trial and error, steps and missteps because there's not a whole lot of support in the larger world. I certainly appreciate understanding and patience if I don't always hit the mark right away.
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  #83   ^
Old Sat, Apr-21-07, 08:19
kneebrace kneebrace is offline
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Plan: atkins/ IF
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucysdream
Maybe I should mind my own business, but Kneebrace, I think you're being a little hard on Proteus One. I can understand how you feel because I think Proteus One could have characterized the situation a little better. But as a third person, I can verify that your written word comes off a bit strong. I think your wealth of knowledge, which is clear, might be less intimidating in smaller doses. But I for one appreciate the discussion here. We're all sort of figuring out what works for us by trial and error, steps and missteps because there's not a whole lot of support in the larger world. I certainly appreciate understanding and patience if I don't always hit the mark right away.


Lucysdream, on the contrary, your input is very refreshing. But I make no apology for 'coming on a little strong', as long as that 'strength' is pertinent to the issue being discussed, and not becoming embroiled in these tiresome personal denigrations. Proteus was making what I thought were wildly inaccurate statements about what IF is, and misguided speculations about the metabolic mechanisms involved. People who post regularly on the paleolithic forum probably identify with that lifestyle, and the prospect of having to concede that you are ignoring a major principle and practice of that lifestyle, is no doubt a bit troubling. I'm really sorry for that discomfort.

Anyway, let's all take a cold shower and realize that resorting to 'rudeness', 'bully' or 'coming on a bit strong' accusations are dead intellectual ends. I'm really sorry that Proteus (and you, obviously) have trouble with my style of debate. I'm afraid you're just going to have to grin and bear it, or ignore it.

You did say you were appreciating the discussion, so let's hope it is the former .
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  #84   ^
Old Sat, Apr-21-07, 08:30
kneebrace kneebrace is offline
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Plan: atkins/ IF
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pauleo
IF-ers - it seems that there are differing IF-cycles. Since adopting paleo eating, I drifted toward having a big breakfast, very light lunch, and an evening meal that is now smaller than breakfast. Not deliberate, it just went in the direction. And if I try IF, I think I would prefer a cycle with a big meal at breakfast-time.

What are your opinions on IF-ing with breakfast as the mealtime? I ask because there seems to be most support for evening meals during IF. People seem to be saying that paleolithic people would have had their meals in the evening (I'm not convinced of that - is there evidence? - if a tribal group killed an animal at 10am would they deliberately wait till evening to eat it?), and that you anyway sleep better if you are not feeling hungry.

Well those are arguments for evening mealtimes, but does anyone have experience/opinions on the different IF cycles?


Well I think most hunts in the pre firearm era would take some planning and execution, not to mention a lot of waiting. Then there is the factor that most of the women would go out gathering for the whole day anyway. I'm pretty sure the hunters wouldn't have scoffed the lot before the gathering (or let's face it, the less fortunate hunting parties) groups returned.

In any case. I'm sure that the big daily meal was often consumed earlier in the day, perhaps not just because of hunting logistics, but also ceremonial commitments. But what follows a big feed like sunshine after rain ?.

Sleep.

That said. I like sleeping at night, and I personally would find going to bed hungry very difficult. But maybe if you are having a very light evening meal anyway, it won't be that difficult to forego it. What I think will be really hard is when (and if) you ditch lunch as well. That would be going to bed after about thirteen hrs without food. Not for the faint hearted . Then again, maybe hungry sleep would be a revelation. There must have been many days when the huntees got away and the tribe went to bed hungry. Perhap's the next day's hunting instincts (read mental acuity, motor skills, strength, endurance etc.) were vastly enhanced by hungry sleep.

But you first.

Last edited by kneebrace : Sat, Apr-21-07 at 09:34.
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  #85   ^
Old Sat, Apr-21-07, 11:29
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ProteusOne ProteusOne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pauleo
Well those are arguments for evening mealtimes, but does anyone have experience/opinions on the different IF cycles?


Pauleo, you'll have to excuse me if I can't or won't back up everything I type with hard and fast "evidence" to support it. The random nature of hunt and feast probably varied among tribes, locations, and inclinations - with a whole host of variables thrown in. For instance, whatever 'ceremonies' our primitive peoples might have practiced, their timing may have had to, at least within limitations, depend upon availability. Again, I'm not a scholar on primitive archeology, or hominid evolution, and I assure you, I'm not trying to sway you with nonsensical POVs!

Personally, I think that it would be difficult for me to adopt a random style of "going without nutrition" such that might have occurred ages ago. I have, however, warmed up to the idea of controlled "fasting." I like the idea of skipping the first two meals of the day, as I think I would find it more difficult to eat an early meal and then nothing for the rest of the day. But I haven't tried the latter, or gave it much of a chance. Eating meats and greens seem to last me longer than my former breakfasts used to.

I'm going to try a purposeful 24 hour "fast" starting tomorrow evening (as opposed to the less structured going without a meal or two). If anyone else is trying this for the first time, let me know and we'll compare physical and psychological perceptions.

(I'm still having my morning coffee, though.)
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  #86   ^
Old Sat, Apr-21-07, 13:00
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Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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You might want to ease into it, Proteus. Going for 24 hours is tough.
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  #87   ^
Old Sat, Apr-21-07, 13:19
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shaeintx shaeintx is offline
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I am all for doing the 24 hour fast, but will of course have my morning coffee as well.
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  #88   ^
Old Sat, Apr-21-07, 15:51
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Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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My fasts are generally filled with no-cal beverages of all sorts.
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  #89   ^
Old Sat, Apr-21-07, 17:25
pauleo pauleo is offline
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I started to get a feel for the fact that it's no fun going to bed hungry even though I haven't tried it! One thing that occurred to me today is that keeping killed game or fish overnight at a sleeping site would be an invitation for hungry animals, and paleo humans probably would not want to exacerbate that problem even if they were well-protected. So that's a strike against paleos eating early morning food. But I'm no expert, just a thought.
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  #90   ^
Old Sat, Apr-21-07, 19:58
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ProteusOne ProteusOne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pauleo
One thing that occurred to me today is that keeping killed game or fish overnight at a sleeping site would be an invitation for hungry animals, and paleo humans probably would not want to exacerbate that problem even if they were well-protected.


On an overnight backpacking trip on WV I had that idea driven home personally to me! Bears love backpacks on the ground - they're like fluffy burritos to them.

My guess is that if there was a fire, there may have been some pickings worth leftover in there in the morning? After a big kill, if it had been a while, maybe they stayed up all night? The possibilities, while perhaps endless, are facinating.
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