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  #76   ^
Old Sun, Jan-28-07, 11:39
ReginaW's Avatar
ReginaW ReginaW is offline
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Quote:
No, *don't* look at the SDAs, for whom vegetarianism is only one of the numerous "health reforms." SDAs are also strongly urged not to smoke, to abstain from alcohol and caffeine, not to go to movies or read non-religious books, and to observe the sabbath in a very quiet manner. In short, vegetarian diet is just one facet of a radically different lifestyle from that of non-SDAs.


Ooops - I should have read ahead!
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  #77   ^
Old Sun, Jan-28-07, 11:41
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ReginaW ReginaW is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TBoneMitch
As Ubizmo said, SDAs can not be considered a good group to compare to the general population, as they have numerous lifestyle differences (besides vegetarianism) that sets them apart from the average citizen.

A better idea would be to compare them to another religious group with a similar lifestyle, but that does not abstain from meat.


Which is one reason I find the studies comparing northern Indians and southern Indians compelling
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  #78   ^
Old Sun, Jan-28-07, 11:50
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Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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It was recently in the news - much to the dismay of a vegetarian research assistant, investigating longevity of centenarians, none were found to be vegetarian in those studied by researchers at Albert Einstein School of Medicine in NY.

Excellent! I'm debating a vegetarian right now about low carb, this should give me some ammo.
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  #79   ^
Old Sun, Jan-28-07, 14:31
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BoBoGuy BoBoGuy is offline
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Regina,

Thanks for posting the below link.

Can we live longer?

Unlike Whoa's articles, this one I can understand! BTW, I take Longevinex Resveratrol daily.

Bo

Last edited by BoBoGuy : Sun, Jan-28-07 at 15:16. Reason: sp
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  #80   ^
Old Sun, Jan-28-07, 14:52
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athena11 athena11 is offline
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You have great links and interesting info. to impart.

Thanks for the reveratol link. I thought I had to become a lush to reap any benefits.
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  #81   ^
Old Sun, Jan-28-07, 15:03
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Mutant Mutant is offline
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An excerpt from the article:

Quote:
Others say the effects in humans would not be as strong as in mice even if people did it all their lives and did it properly. Jay Phelan, an evolutionary biologist at UCLA, says that men in Okinawa eat almost 20% less their entire life than other Japanese men but live less than a year longer. He's extrapolated these data to what would be expected if people ate 35% less for their entire life. He found it would only extend the average lifespan by about 2 years.

"What it tells me," he says, "is that humans aren't just mice blown up to 200 pounds."

Phelan says he doesn't think there will ever be a way to significantly extend human life span. "Millions of years and billions of people living a variety of lifestyles that result in life spans that never exceed 122 demonstrate that it is unlikely that some new method will dramatically extend this," he says.


Two years... ROCK ON!

Kind regards
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  #82   ^
Old Sun, Jan-28-07, 15:38
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VALEWIS VALEWIS is offline
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Perhaps Whoa has found a convenient, socially acceptable explanation to support anorexic behavior. It doesn't seem like there is a great deal of benefit from CR that couldn't be found in just eating maintenance calories, exercising and avoiding junk.
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  #83   ^
Old Sun, Jan-28-07, 17:12
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Whoa182 Whoa182 is offline
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Quote:
Others say the effects in humans would not be as strong as in mice even if people did it all their lives and did it properly. Jay Phelan, an evolutionary biologist at UCLA, says that men in Okinawa eat almost 20% less their entire life than other Japanese men but live less than a year longer.


COMPLETELY FALSE. The okinawans were only MILDLY Calorie Restricted for half their adult lives untill the 1960s. Why were they only mildly CR'd? Because their heights are on average far less than the average westerner, so they need to consume fewer calories. Average calorie consumption has increased significantly. Also CR beneficial gene expression changes can be reversed in a matter of weeks of increasing calories. Okinawans are now consuming almost 2000 k/cal... and they're tiny (and getting fat)

Please mutant, put it to rest already, J. Phelan has been misinformed.

Willcox DC, Willcox BJ, Todoriki H, Curb JD, Suzuki M.
Caloric restriction and human longevity: what can we learn from the
Okinawans?

Biogerontology. 2006 Jun 30; [Epub ahead of print]
PMID: 16810568 http://tinyurl.com/zposa
... older Okinawans, who appear to have undergone a mild form of
prolonged CR for about half their adult lives. ... Caloric (or dietary)
restriction (CR) ... The question of whether or not CR would work in humans
may be one of the most significant unanswered questions in biogerontology.
... CR not only will work but in fact available epidemiological evidence
indicates that CR may already have contributed to an extension of average
and maximum life span in one human population and appears to have lowered
risk for age associated chronic diseases in other human populations. We
review the human studies in the context of a special human population that
we believe has undergone prolonged CR while also maintaining a high quality
diet-a necessary condition for CR to manifest its beneficial effects. ...
concentrate on long term human studies (Heilbronn and Ravussin 2003; Masoro
2005; Dirks and Leeuwenburgh 2006). ... (Fontana et al. 2004). ... (Meyer
et al. 2006). A key question is whether or not these systemic changes are
reflective of a more youthful physiology and will enhance health and
lifespan if continued over a longer time period. ... Baltimore Longitudinal
Study of Aging (BLSA) ... noted that healthy men who displayed three
"biomarkers of the CR phenotype"-lower insulin levels, lower body
temperature and a slower decline in levels of the hormone
dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate (DHEA-S) also had significantly longer
survival (Roth et al. 2002). ... Honolulu Heart Program cohort where blood
glucose in middle age strongly predicts late life survival (Rodriguez et al.
1999).
... Only one long-term epidemiological prospective study (>30 years) has
directly addressed the issue of caloric intake and human longevity. This
36-year follow-up study reported a weak trend for lower allcause mortality
in healthy non-smoking Japanese-American men suggesting that those who
consumed a modestly low energy intake (85% of group mean) had the lowest
risk for all-cause mortality [ The pdf-available http://tinyurl.com/ggvhp
paper] . There was higher mortality risk when caloric intake dropped below
50% of the group mean. This is consistent with previous animal findings that
show decreased risk for mortality from age associated diseases and increased
life span under a CR regimen of up to 50% restriction. ... Low caloric
intake was first reported in the Okinawan population by Hokama et al. (1967)
who showed that Okinawan school children consumed only 62% of the calories
of other Japanese school children. Kagawa (1978) confirmed low caloric
intake (83% of Japan average) in the Okinawa adult population from the 1972
Japan National Nutrition Survey and documented anthropometric and morbidity
data from older Okinawans that were consistent with CR. Kagawa (1978)
hypothesized that this may have been partly responsible for the long and
healthy lives of Okinawans. Death rates from heart disease, cancer and
cerebral vascular disease were found to be only 60 to 70% of that of the
Japan average and the all-cause mortality rate for 60-64 year olds was only
half that of other Japanese. A later study published by Chan et al. (1997)
also reported dietary and phenotypic data in Okinawan septuagenarians and
centenarians consistent with CR.
Our recent analysis of long-term trends in whole population caloric
intake and energy balance for the years beginning in 1949 demonstrates that
the Okinawan septuagenarian population appeared to be in a relative "energy
deficit" consistent with CR until the late 1960s
,
eating approximately 11%
fewer calories (approximately 1,785 kcal per day) than would normally be
recommended for maintenance of body weight according to the Harris-Benedict
equation (Willcox et al. Unpublished data). The body mass index (BMI) of
adult Okinawans also remained stable at a very lean 21 kg/m2 and peak body
weight was reached in young adulthood and appeared relatively stable until
elderly ages (Willcox et al. Unpublished data). These dietary and
anthropometric data are consistent with adaptation to a long-term energy
deficit and fit proposed epidemiologic definitions by a recent US National
Institutes of Health panel (see Lee et al. 2001) of the human CR phenotype
(i.e. no weight gain after early adulthood).
Moreover, nutritional studies suggest that the traditional Okinawan
diet, with its high intake of green leafy and yellow root vegetables, sweet
potatoes as a dietary staple, and soy as a principle protein supplemented by
small amounts of fish and meat, was adequate in most nutrients and
particularly high in antioxidant vitamins [not pdf-available
http://tinyurl.com/ffa3u etc].
Was there a CR effect? ... If a CR phenomenon occurred for the current
generation of elderly Okinawans then there should be biomarker evidence of
CR-linked delayed physiological aging. Thus, it is of keen interest that
recent findings from our ongoing study of Okinawa's elderly population show
that Okinawan septuagenarians, who would have undergone CR until at least
middle age according to the previous population data, exhibit higher DHEA
levels when compared to age-matched Americans not subjected to CR (Willcox
et al. Unpublished data). In addition, if delayed aging occurred in
Okinawans, then there should be a rightward shift in the survival curve,
with increases in both average lifespan and maximum lifespan. Indeed,
survival curves for Okinawan, Japanese and U.S. populations calculated based
on life table data for the year 1995 do show increases in both average and
maximum lifespan in the Okinawan population compared to Japanese and
American populations, consistent with CR. Average lifespan (measured as 50th
percentile survival) and maximum lifespan (measured as 99th percentile
survival) in the Okinawan, Japanese and U.S. populations were 83.8 and 104.9
years, 82.3 and 101.1 years, and 78.9 and 101.3 years, respectively (Willcox
et al. Unpublished data).
Finally, age-adjusted mortality for specific age-related diseases
(especially cardiovascular diseases) is extremely low in elderly Okinawans
compared to other age-matched Japanese or Americans [not pdf-available
http://tinyurl.com/ffa3u etc] . Thus, life expectancy at older ages is
extremely long in Okinawa. For the septuagenarian cohort, life expectancy
from age 65 is the longest in Japan, and possibly the world, at 24.1 years
for females and 18.5 years for males (Japan Ministry of Health, Labor and
Welfare, 2005). This compares to 22.5 years and 17.6 years for the same
birth cohort in mainland Japan (Japan Ministry of Health, Labor and Welfare
2000) and 19.3 years and 16.2 years for corresponding U.S. birth cohorts of
females and males respectively (U.S. Centers for Disease Control and
Prevention 2003). Also consistent with a longer life expectancy at older
ages is the high numbers of centenarians at approximately 50 per 100,000 or
about 4-5 times the average for most industrialized countries (Japan
Ministry of Health, Labor and Welfare 2005).
Other factors may also be contributing to the exceptional longevity of
the Okinawans such as genetic factors, specific nutritional components of
the diet (high anti-oxidants), social support and/or health care [not
pdf-available http://tinyurl.com/ffa3u , pdf-available
http://tinyurl.com/ebjwt etc] . However, the forces of morbidity and
mortality act most strongly at older ages and it is at these ages one would
expect to see the most marked phenotypic differences and the most marked
survival advantage, had CR occurred in the Okinawans, and indeed this is the
case.
Should we restrict our calories? ... Some scientists who study the
mechanisms of aging suggest that it is unlikely that the maximum lifespan of
humans can be extended by any intervention, including caloric restriction
(Hayflick 2004). It has also been argued that while CR is likely to be
almost universal in its beneficial effects on longevity, the benefit to
humans is likely to be small, even if humans restrict their caloric intake
substantially and over long periods of time (Phelan and Rose 2005). The
latter argument derives from observations of complex differences between
species (such as amount of energy allocated to reproduction) and the fact
that underlying physiological mechanisms that determine longevity are not
necessarily the same between species. Furthermore, there are potential
health concerns, particularly if practiced incorrectly (too severe) or at
vulnerable (too young, too old, pregnancy) life stages ([not pdf-available
http://tinyurl.com/fvy5l etc]
While fully acknowledging that the nature of the life-extending action
of CR may differ among species, we believe these views to be overly
pessimistic and not reflective of the available evidence. However, we
believe that people should not attempt to restrict calories to the extreme
levels seen in animal studies (up to 60%) because human studies, although
promising, have not fully addressed issues such as quality of life and other
potential side effects. With that caveat in mind, cautious approaches to
lowering calories (mild CR) among adults while maintaining optimal nutrient
intakes would still likely result in significant health benefits. In fact,
recent findings show that even 8% CR has beneficial effects on specific
biochemical and inflammatory biomarkers [not pdf-available
http://tinyurl.com/fvy5l ]
We cite the following reasons for a more optimistic view of the
potential benefits of the CR lifestyle for human beings: ... accumulated
evidence of 70 years of CR studies ... (from yeast to mammals). As such, it
would be unusual if it did not work in some positive capacity in humans as
well. Second, studies in progress with non-human primates (who share over
95% of our genes and have similar reproductive physiology) on a CR regimen,
while not yet conclusive, are showing early results consistent with previous
animal data. Third, short-term and longer-term studies of humans under a
true CR paradigm have shown dramatic changes in physiology and metabolic
shifts similar to other animals. Fourth, our research shows that older
Okinawans (ages-65 plus) exhibit a CR-like phenotype and ate a low calorie
diet over a prolonged period of time. Calories in the Okinawan population
were approximately 11% fewer than what would usually be recommended for
their body weight and activity levels (based on the Harris-Benedict
equation) but only for half their adult lives.
Yet, even with this mild CR-like regimen older Okinawans have gained an
additional 6% survival time from age 65 (1.3 years) versus other Japanese
and an additional 20% survival time (3.6 years) versus Americans. Given the
large number of factors that influence human lifespan, this is also
surprisingly similar to the gain in lifespan observed in prior animal
studies (i.e. 10-20% calorie reduction leads to a 10-20% increase in
lifespan). Most importantly, the Okinawans appear to have gained an
increased health span, with almost a decade of disability-free life
expectancy beyond what typical Western populations experience.

Lastly, while Okinawans were not consciously practicing CR, they did
develop cultural habits that led to the kind of prudent food choices that
maximize nutritional properties of foods while minimizing caloric density as
would be the favored strategy for anyone who attempts a CR regimen. Simply
avoiding calorie-dense refined sugars, saturated fats and processed foods
and replacing them with nutrient-dense but calorie poor vegetables, fruits
and legumes will not only likely lead to spontaneous weight loss through
lower caloric intake but would also result in a vastly increased intake of
health-enhancing phytonutrients, including key vitamins and minerals,
antioxidants and flavonoids. Practicing a little restraint at the dinner
table may also have its benefits. "Eat until you are 80% full" (or hara
hachi-bu) is the advice that Okinawan grandmothers have given for years and
the science of CR appears to be proving that the wisdom of the elders still
rings as true as ever.

Quote:
He's extrapolated these data to what would be expected if people ate 35% less for their entire life. He found it would only extend the average lifespan by about 2 years.


You know those Seventh day adventist have an almost 10 year extension of lifespan, and are not CR'd at all? 2 years from life long CR !

Quote:
Phelan says he doesn't think there will ever be a way to significantly extend human life span. "Millions of years and billions of people living a variety of lifestyles that result in life spans that never exceed 122 demonstrate that it is unlikely that some new method will dramatically extend this," he says.


Not really to say much about this to be honest. Calment was an extreme outlier. The maximum lifespan for humans its probably around 100-110 years. There are so many people on earth that 'genetics' is almost certainly going enable someone to live a lifespan like that of a CR'd organism. Youthful for longer and free of most disease. CR may not not push 122, phelan doesn't know and neither do any of us. But 2 years in average lifespan from lifelong CR? That is ridiculous assumption based on misinformation.

Last edited by Whoa182 : Sun, Jan-28-07 at 17:20.
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  #84   ^
Old Sun, Jan-28-07, 17:37
Whoa182's Avatar
Whoa182 Whoa182 is offline
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Also our oldest Calorie Restricted guy Ralph in the CR cohort is almost 104 years old. Hes been doing Mild CR since middle age.

And for those that never seen this in another thread... "C58" the OLDEST Rhesus monkey EVER recorded was only calorie restricted from the human equivalent age of around 54 years! (18 rhesus monkey years). After his 18th birthday he was sent from india to the research centre in the U.S and put on a 30% CR diet. He lived to 41 years! (human equivalent of 123 years)



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  #85   ^
Old Sun, Jan-28-07, 18:20
dina1957 dina1957 is offline
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Posts: 1,854
 
Plan: My own
Stats: 194/000/150 Female 5'5"
BF:Not sure
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReginaW
What *caused* the high blood pressure?



Some of the ideas you spout - scary!



So, in your world the endocrine system breaks first and that makes someone gain weight?~

Scatching head......Why'd the endocrine system "break" in the first place?



Correct



Wrong.~

Maybe try googling "medically obese normal weight" and/or "metabolically obese normal weight" and see what pops?

It is a misconception and over-simplification to think diabetes, specifically type 2, is simply caused accumulation of too much fat and if one can avoid overt outward indications of too much fat (overweight/obesity) than they're somehow protected from developing type 2.

Yes, those who are lean/slim are at a lower risk - a far lower percentage of those with normal weight BMI develop type 2 diabetes - but that is no guarantee they are immune from it....here's a clue Dina - look past the adiposity and read up on insulin receptors, OK?



Wow, sorta like the endcrine system being intricately involved as previously noted, 'eh?



May I ask your clinical experience with this Dr. Dina? Your data to support this notion that most of those diagnosed T2, who are lean/slim, are not T2 but T1 or MODY?



Ya think? Back to insulin receptors Dina.....and what's happening, or rather not happening, with them in the body.




Remaining normal weight is NOT a guarantee Dina......



You need to read more on the subject then.....longevity in the Caucus region is one piece of a very large puzzle to begin to understand human longevity - that includes a large variety of ethicities, cultural traditions and environments.

Extrapolating data from one area to extend to the whole human population doesn't work - never has, never will - since there is no harmony across regions and countries with diet, activity patterns or environement. Heck, the experience of an individual within the US is varied - some live in urban areas, others rural or suburban - so even though they share a common nationality, their day-to-day is totally different!



It was recently in the news - much to the dismay of a vegetarian research assistant, investigating longevity of centenarians, none were found to be vegetarian in those studied by researchers at Albert Einstein School of Medicine in NY.

"Centenarians — for obvious reasons — are being intensively studied for the clues they may offer about aging. If they're doing something right, Dr. Nir Barzilai, who studies centenarians at the Albert Einstein College of Medicine in New York, says he hasn't found their secret yet. So far, he's asked 400 of them all kinds of questions about the way they live their lives, and "I don't have anything to tell you," he says. They don't seem to live more healthful lives. Among the 400, he hasn't found a single vegetarian. This bugs his research coordinator, who is a vegetarian herself, he says. "She has almost made it her ambition now to find one.""



Here's a couple to get you started.....

Glucose tolerance and insulin action in healty centenarians

Preserved antilipolytic insulin action is associated with a less atherogenic plasma lipid profile in healthy centenarians



Snarky? Nah....you tried to set up a strawman, I don't do strawman arguements. Simple as that.

And you assertion that we can find 100 folds more studied linking cholesterol to heart disease is another one - so you continue to believe that if you'd like; my review of various studies leads to a different conclusion.



Well, they've been doing it for 35-years here, in Beaver County, PA.

"Its Healthy Heart Program, which conducts blood lipid panel tests in local seventh-grade pupils, has been in effect for more than 35 years."

Oh, and I didn't say statins are being "routinely" prescribed to healthy kids, now did I?

I am not going to continue, makes no sense , no studies are good unless they suit you.
I could post another "sharkly" reply, and have this intch in my fingers, but this is not a war zone, so I will let you make your assumptions and recommendation for me to read more, I think I already promissed to keep up. Your got stuck on low insulin/blood sugar being the only condition associated with long life, and this is not scary but rather funny, but whatever floats your boat, I am not going to argue. IMHO, longevity includes so many factors and we know only few. Dr. Ron Rosedale wrote in his book that all long lived folks had one in common: low insulin. But while he is a big proponent of low carb diet, he is against sat.fat and promotes vebetables, nuts, seeds based diet. For me there are still too much controversy to say Yes or No to cholesterol hypothesis but you are definetely know something most drs don't.
We can continue to argue and keep posting links, but it is too boring for me.
Oh, one last thing: the cause of high BP varies from one person to another. It is not only high insulin and too much visceral fat and obesity but also kidney stones and other kidney illnesses ( not related to elevated Bgs BTW), stress, and heredity.
But since everyone will have diabetes anyways (even skinny ones) there is no point to talk about longevity.
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  #86   ^
Old Sun, Jan-28-07, 18:33
ceberezin ceberezin is offline
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Posts: 619
 
Plan: Protein Power
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Back when I used to teach freshman composition at the college level, I was always amazed that freshman could get to college still believing that opinions are sacrosanct, that as long as something was their opinion, no one had boo to say about it. I considered it my solemn duty to disabuse them of this notion, and they were very surprised to learn that no one was entitled to an opinion and that if they couldn't support what they believed, the fact that they believed it cut no mustard with me.

I want to thank Regina for having the patience to put up with those who haven't quite got that message. I always learn by listening to you.
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  #87   ^
Old Sun, Jan-28-07, 18:53
Mutant's Avatar
Mutant Mutant is offline
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Posts: 332
 
Plan: DiPasquale Radical Diet
Stats: 301.5/260.2/260 Male 71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoa182
COMPLETELY FALSE.
Please mutant, put it to rest already, J. Phelan has been misinformed.


That is a bold pronouncement. From the brief and constricted quoted material from J. Phelan I'd like to know where you think he has been misinformed. I'm confident that J. Phelan as an evolutionary biologist has access to the same data every one else does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoa182
You know those Seventh day adventist have an almost 10 year extension of lifespan, and are not CR'd at all? 2 years from life long CR !


That is just silly. You really don't know how to interpret the data, do you? You like to conflate the CR idea of 'life extension' with 'average lifespan' to your advantage. It is not very profound that different groups of people have different average lifespans... You are constantly hammering away about the Okinawans, but the Okinawan data suggests that the life extension ***DUE TO CR*** will only amount to a few years. That means, for the cholesterol challenged among us, that the rest of the increase of their average lifespans is due to other factors than CR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoa182
[Not really to say much about this to be honest. Calment was an extreme outlier. The maximum lifespan for humans its probably around 100-110 years. There are so many people on earth that 'genetics' is almost certainly going enable someone to live a lifespan like that of a CR'd organism. Youthful for longer and free of most disease. CR may not not push 122, phelan doesn't know and neither do any of us. But 2 years in average lifespan from lifelong CR? That is ridiculous assumption based on misinformation.


Back it up. It is not an assumption but a scientific extrapolation of the data which includes your vaunted Okinawan data. Because you personally find it 'rediculous' doesn't carry a lot of weight.
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  #88   ^
Old Sun, Jan-28-07, 18:58
kneebrace kneebrace is offline
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Posts: 1,429
 
Plan: atkins/ IF
Stats: 162/128/130 Male 175
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Progress: 106%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dina1957
But since everyone will have diabetes anyways (even skinny ones) there is no point to talk about longevity.


How could anyone think that's what Regina was suggesting?

Besides, wether or not you can distinguish between correlation and causation, it's important to remember that all the studies which are claimed to demonstrate a 'connection' between cholesterol and any degenerative disease , are in the context of a high carb diet. As badly designed as these epidemiological gymnastics are, any conclusions about 'elevated' (whatever that means ) cholesterol being some kind of villain are even more suspect when you figure the carbs into the equation.
It always gives me pause when some study claims to have ( through statistical sleight of hand, presumably) 'factored out' confounding variables. They don't even fully understand the mechanisms. How could they possibly 'factor out' anything except by indulging their own woolly anti cholesterol preconceptions ?

Last edited by kneebrace : Sun, Jan-28-07 at 19:50.
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  #89   ^
Old Sun, Jan-28-07, 20:01
kneebrace kneebrace is offline
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Plan: atkins/ IF
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoa182
B]
CR may not not push 122, phelan doesn't know and neither do any of us. But 2 years in average lifespan from lifelong CR? That is ridiculous assumption based on misinformation.


I've really got to hand it to you Matt. You've somehow managed to get your CR agenda out of the warzone and into the Low Carb Research and Media section. You are are indeed a Magician. I agree with Mutant every time he picks you up on some gaping hole in the CR logic, but you'd almost think he was some sort of accomplice .

Last edited by kneebrace : Mon, Jan-29-07 at 07:39.
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  #90   ^
Old Sun, Jan-28-07, 21:06
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Mutant Mutant is offline
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Plan: DiPasquale Radical Diet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kneebrace
I've really got to hand it to you Matt. You've somehow managed to get your CR agenda out of the warzone and into the Low Carb Research and Media section. You are are indeed a Magician. I agree with Mutant every time he picks you up on gaping hole in the CR logic, but you'd almost think he was some sort of accomplice .


Kneebrace, you are going to get such a pinch!

And enough of the shabby gaunt hungry-looking monkey pictures. They are starting to haunt my dreams...

Kind regards
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