I sure do agree with you, Dandi, about the "off balance" stuff. Soy is being found to be even worse for people than most of the other beans, except limas and favas. Limas and favas can have most of the bad stuff cooked out of them, but not soy or its' by-products (tofu, oil, etc.). Canola has gotten a lot of bad press...most of which is untrue...my jury is still out on it. Well, I'm not feeling too good after my new strenuous exercise program has kicked into high gear, so it's off to my trundle bed. Audette's book is well- worth the wait. Good Eating!

captxray,
The Audette book is now ordered, from Interlibrary Loan. I intend to buy my own copy but at least have a copy to read on its way to me.

How long does it take you to do the 16 miles?

Rain here all day, so we didn't walk our 4 miles. We did go to the library booksale. It was the last day so a bag of books cost one dollar. Among other books, I bought a copy of The Story of Man and His Food by C.C. and S.M. Furnas (husband and wife???). It is an old book, 1937. There are some things in it I do not agree with but there's a lot of thought-provoking information too. I've read about half of the book so far and have found it worthwhile.
The authors begin with the diet, hunting and gathering practices of ancient man and then work their way down through history.
Both my husband and I are interested in history, plus being interested in what makes for the best nutrition today.

A few weeks ago I probably would have passed by this particular book. Because of the paleo WOE it caught my eye and has been a good read for a rainy day.

Dandi

Over on this side of the Cascades, it has been gorgeous. Got our garden planted today...my wife insisted on two types of bush beans...oh, well. I'll have fun eating the squash and carrots, radishes, lettuce, and beet greens...that book you found sounds interesting. It takes me 25 minutes to ride into town in the morning (8 miles) and 28 minutes to come home at night (8 miles, again!). Compared to my triathalon days (about 20 years ago when I was an "Iron Man") I am slow as molasses and look like an overstuffed bratwurst ready to explode out of the skin.
How long does it take you guys to walk the four miles? Fifty five more pounds to go!

captxray,
My husband is impressed with your accomplishments. And he said that riding 8 miles in 28 minutes sounded pretty good, that you must be in good shape.

We walk about a 17 minute mile. Though it seems to me that we have been speeding up. We walk to the church for mass each morning. That is one mile. Then we walk an oblong route along, and then parallel to, Hwy 101 which works out to 3-4 miles depending on where we cut off to come home. We're trying to get in 10,000 steps each day, including steps besides those we make on our morning walks. Some afternoons we walk to the post office too and that adds another mile. We've been leaving the car parked a lot. Our gas expenses for the car have dropped to very little.

While we were walking this morning my husband said he felt so good, he felt on top the world. And that makes me happy to hear because feeling energetic and good is a sign of health. I feel like we're doing ourselves a lot of good.

And now, he has a large salad, with pesto and avocado, waiting for me so I must go.

Dandi

Good for the two of you! Do you live on the coast? Walking is the best exercize there is for the human body. Thanks to your DH for saying that I must be in good shape. However, I must differ a bit. When I was an althelete, I was in good shape. Now, I'm just a fat, bearded, long-haired, out-of-shape, old man, making a fool of himself on his 20 year old one-time-state-of-the-art bike, who looks like an overstuffed burrito in his 20 year old biking clothes. But, I plan to look better, feel better, and be better in the ensuing months. I can hardly wait to see Thousand Island Lake with Banner Peak rising up from it in July! I first hiked there 42 years ago. It's been over 30 years since I was last there. To me, it's the most beautiful place I've ever been to (and I've been to the South Pacific islands...more than one! and Yosemite Valley, and the Grand Canyon, and...and...the Oregon Coast...and...). I never thought I would be able to go there, again. Now, I've got a real goal!

Time to eat my Kippered Snacks and drink about a quart of water!

captxray,
We know well the "glory" of past days. Twenty years ago we ran 29 runs in one year. My DH ran a 7 minute mile as a Masters. I, due to respiratory damage from bulbar polio, ran only a 12 minute mile -- but sometimes, in my 40s, beat a 19 or a 35 year old male to the finish line -- because they ran themselves out early in the race. And it was a lot of fun!

And we hiked a multitude of mountain trails, etc. But we let our selves get too used to the easy chair and sweets and indoor activities. So now we have to rebuild health and find some outdoor activity we both enjoy.

But we too are setting some goals. We're looking for some fun runs on the coast, that we might walk, this summer or next. We don't want to get back into running, but we do need more activity.

Goals are extremely important!!

Dandi

Dandi, and anyone else out there lurking who may have read about my 8 miles in 25 minutes....I told my wife that your DH said that I must be in good shape to be making the eight mile bike ride in 25 minutes...To make a long story short, she about fell off her chair, laughing at me! I looked at her with an incredulous expression. She said, "You dolt! (her words of endearment...I know she loves me!) It's only 4 1/2 miles to downtown from here! The round trip is 9 miles!" DUUUUUUHHH! Oh, yeah....I forgot...uh....I guess I really am in terrible shape, huh?...let's see...4 1/2 miles in 25 minutes...that's about 10.8 mph!!! AAAAGH! I didn't think much about the 25 minutes for 8 miles, because I used to be able to do that so much faster... But...10.8MPH! 5.5 minute miles!!!! AAAAHGHGHG! I am so out of shape, it's disgusting!!!!! No wonder people laugh uproariously at me as I tool down the road in my out-of-date-biking clothes on my out-of-date-bike, with my aerodynamic helmet (like I need that!) and my beard, long hair, and belly about to explode through my clothes like a swollen carcass on the side of the road! I'm committed now! I may look funny, now, but wait and see!!! By the end of summer I will be getting back into some semblance of shape...I am even more committed to keeping to this WOE and WOL, now!!!

Howdy fellow cave dwellers! Just wanted to chime in to let you know that there's one more to support you!

I changed my profile today to Paleo from LC. I read "The Paleo Diet" and am pretty much there now.

Had a question about vinegar. In the book it says that wine and beer is ok if it's already in your diet. Because, the cave folks probably had some some sort of fermented berry juice that was a lot like wine. Now, if that's true, you know some of the cases of wine had to turn to vinegar at some point, right? So, why doesn't the book say that vinegar is ok as a dressing. All the dressings have lemon juice in them. Just wondering if anyone can tell me what is wrong with vinegar?

By the way, I stalled for 6 weeks until I stopped eating cheese (all dairy except for butter, actually.) I dropped 10 pounds and now I've been on another stall for 6 weeks and don't have one more thing I can cut out of my diet, I'm completely dairy free now. Some, I'm here for the long haul, just trying to elicit some sympathy and cave-help!!!

My typical meal plan is berries for breakfast, celery for midmorning snack, protein and salad for lunch, and protein and occasionally another vegie. I have eaten some macadamias, but I'm trying to cut those out to lose weight. I'm trying to cut out the salt and some fat, according to the Paleo Diet book. Any suggestions on how I can break this stall?

Welcome aboard our skin boat, Heather! It's cool that we've got a new convert to come to our cave. It's awfully hard to kill a mammoth with a rock, all by yourself. Now, we have one more rock-thrower to assist our little band of stalwart hunters and gatherers. I will have to go home and find out why Ray Audette doesn't like vinegar in our WOE. I'm obviously a proponent of Neanderthin, and that is definitely in his book, but I can't remember why. He doesn't allow any alcohol in the diet, so I stay away from it. (If you were naked, with a stick, what could you kill, gather, or eat? HE's pretty much a "purist" and doesn't allow any processed (by that he means, anything that must be cooked to be eaten) foods. I know what you mean about stalls. I've been on one for about 13 weeks...a little movement down...a couple of pounds...in all of that time. I've started an exercise program (if you have read any of my recent posts), cut out nuts, almost entirely, cut way back on the fruit, and have been eating mostly fish, veggies, olive oil, lemon juice (in my dressing) and a fair portion of red meat. Probably not a great idea, because of the high concentration of Omega-6 fatty acids. Not much change. I don't care, anymore. I'm doing what I need to do to get healthy and I know my body will eventually get there...even if it takes years. If you find the magic cure for the stall, be sure to share!

Heather and captxray,
I'm very interested in what you do to break your stalls. You both seem to be following very good eating plans. I would think that with what your eating and exercise that you'll both be losing.

My DH and I have been eating broccoli and broccoli broth both for breakfast and for dinner. We are not doing it to lose weight but because it is supposed to help what ails him. But we do seem to be losing weight. I dropped another pound today. Between our two broccoli meals, we have a mid-morning snack. Then usually have a large salad meal at noon. And we have some fruit and/or nuts/seeds again in mid-afternoon. (I started eating some fruit again, but being more careful about when I eat it and I don't eat banana alone. I don't want another of those energy crashes.) Whenever we eat, we eat all we want. But our appetites are smaller than when we were eating the fast-acting carbs. Eating the two broccoli meals is only a temporary but it does seem to help us drop the pounds.

I still think the low-carb vegetables are the key to losing. We're eating lots of salad greens and sprouts. Keeping a health diary is a great help too, to know what is and what isn't working. We've also temporarily stopped eating meat or fish or eggs because the diary was telling us they were slowing my DH's recovery rate. We'll start implementing small amounts of them in a week or so, and monitor their effect on his health as we add them back.

Our rate of losing has slowed, which is good as we get nearer normal weight. I was losing ten pounds per month. This month I lost six.

captxray, you're doing great to ride your bike back and forth that distance. And you know the great thing is that you've got a WOE and exercise plan going. And you have a terrific sense of humor.

Yes, we live on the coast, in Brookings. Nice climate and winter flowers.

Heather,
Please let us know how things go. I think plaeo is the most sensible WOE there is. Nature gives us the foods we really need for best health and gives us a lot of guidance.

Dandi

The book, Neanderthin, by Ray Audette has a dismal index. I can never find anything I want in there, yet I know I've read about the subject. He's got a great bibliography, but a sorry index. Therefore, Heather, I cannot find why we're not supposed to use vinegar. I'll bet if you look on the Paleolithic Diet Page you can find something about vinegar. I haven't looked there for a while. It's always a fun read...a little mean-spirited about Vegans, sometimes, but still fun. Of course, even I...that's right...even the Captain gets a little annoyed with the "politically correct vegetarians" sometimes. They are responsible for the irradication of more species than us meat-eaters ever were, but they slather forth their drivle about "Not killing our fellow species," and other feel-good, uninformed blither. ENOUGH! Captain! Get a grip! Be NICE! What is one man's garbage is another man's treasure.

Dandi, my wife and I stay in Gold Beach a couple of times a year so she can paint and I can draw...It's not too spectacular, just relaxing and rejuvenating. I actually love the Oregon Coast. I would like to ride my motorcycle out there this summer and take my DW, if she's game. Of course, she isn't a paleo dieter like we are, but she said, "Maybe we could eat hamburger patties together." Of course, I immediately thought of fresh seafood...lots of fresh fish and salads! Yum! It would be neat to meet you and your DH, sometime...actual human contact with real paleo dieters, like ME! Whenever I drive through Cave Junction my heart skips a beat. The perfect place for a Neandernut to live! Of course, I can't promise you would like us in your cave, but I think it would be neat to meet you guys. I'm really getting tired of my stall...I wonder what it is that is causing it? My new exercize plan is about to kill me, and still....nothing!

Heather,
I haven't read Audette's book yet so cannot comment on his views on vinegar. However, I have read a lot of diet and health books and the subject of vinegar comes up quite often. If I remember correctly, those who oppose vinegar do so because they say it causes a bad effect in the digestive system. And since health is affected by the digestion process, it is not good to use vinegar.

Some writers say apple cider vinegar is okay but other vinegars aren't. I do not remember their reasoning on that point.

Most of these writers advocate using lemon juice rather than vinegar, such as in salad dressings.

I looked through my books here at home and couldn't find "vinegar" in any of the indexes. I know some of those writers have commented on it but I couldn't locate what they said. It seems Audette's book isn't the only poorly-indexed book. If I come across anymore on the subject of vinegar, I'll let you know.

Dandi

captxray,
When you and your wife come over this way, e-mail us at hothamsound~hotmail.com and we'll meet you somewhere for a paleo visit. We'll look forward to that. Please let us know ahead of time so we can arrange our schedule accordingly.

Is the place you are going to in July -- was it called Banner Peak --in Eastern Oregon? It sounds nice. We are very blessed in Oregon to have so much beautiful scenery.

My DH has a cold and so his energy level is down. We're not getting out as usual and we're both missing it. But I don't think it is good to push oneself too hard with a cold either. We walked only two miles yesterday. And this morning (now 8:30 a.m.) has been pure leisure, just lazing around the apartment, which is rare for us.

Maybe you and Heather and I and others on this thread can share the indexing we do to Audette's book. That would be a worthwhile project, I think, and enjoyable. We could each just note the page number on a certain subject, such as "vinegar" and pass it on to the others. Doing a little at a time like that would keep it simple and not like real work. And we would all gain from it. What do you think on this idea?

Concerning your stall, would it help to cut back on the amount of oil? My DH says one tablespoon of pesto will coat all the salad in a large bowl. And we have at times cut out all added oil for a day or two. We figure we actually get plenty of fats from nuts, seeds and the one/half avocado we each get on our noon salad, and sometimes too much, so we have to cut back on those foods too for a while. Also, they say that drinking adequate water helps the body lose weight. I think the key to breaking a stall is to keep a written record of what we eat and drink and how much exercise we get from day to day and then to add more of the non-starchy vegetables and plain, good water and less of the other foods in our lives until we start losing.

Also, after we make a change, it may take some days for the results of the change to show up. If I recall correctly, you started riding your bike to town not too long ago. You could be losing gradually. And losing gradually is very good, because then it is becoming a WOL and not just a temporary program. Don't experts in the field say, too, that a person can exchange muscle from exercise for previous fat? I should think you'd definitely be doing that with the bike riding.

Well, my DH says he's ready to get out for our walk. So maybe we're back on our routine around here. It's a grand foggy morning out there and we're going to enjoy it.

Dandi

Hi! I don't own Audette's book. The book I have is "The Paleo Diet" by Loren Cordain.

The last time I broke my stall was quitting dairy. Now that I've done that, there isn't much more to give up.

The Paleo Diet does recommend a lower fat, higher protein diet than what Atkins prescribes. I like it because it allows me to eat all the vegies and fruits that I want. Although, I've only had berries and haven't gone hog-wild on them. I feel like it's more within the guidelines of what I like to eat rather than all the fatty foods on Atkins, so I'll probably be able to stick to it longer or the rest of my life (hopefully.)

I'm going to just keep plugging along and some day my weight will go down. I'm feeling less and less upset by the fact that I'm eating so healthy and nothing is happening scale-wise. I just keep thinking you are what you eat, and I've been making such healthy choices this year that I'm feeling pretty good. I've had a few slips lately, so I've got to watch that. But, overall, much, much better than where I was a year ago today!

I'll try and find Audette's book, I'm assuming that's Neanderthin. Then we can all be on the same page, so to speak!

Has anyone tried any insects? I ate ants once when I was about 11 on a dare. They were pretty peppery!

Hi, Heather and Dandi.

Yes, Heather, it's Neanderthin. I seem to have possibly broken through my stall...a little exercise seems to have been the key. I've lost 52 pounds, so far and that means I only have about 53 to go! I'm almost at 50%...whoooeee...yea! Hip! Hip! Hooray! I still look like an overstuffed bratwurst, but ....soon. Whatever you do...DON'T GIVE UP! It will break when your body is ready.

I keep thinking I ought to try an insect, or two. All they are is land-based lobsters, or shrimp, so-to-speak, right? The only problem with that is, I don't eat the lobster's or shrimp's carapace when I eat them. And, I certainly don't eat their entrails. YECHK!!!! I'm sorry...I'm such a "civilized poophead!" Why can't i be the modern day hunter and gatherer that I want to be? Let me have at them, again. I think it's ridiculous that I can't seem to get past my revulsion for eating spindly things with six legs and crunchy bodies. I think it's knowing that you're eating their little guts, and everything that really throws me. I will not feed them cornmeal before eating them as cornmeal is one of the worst things we can put in our bodies. That's like putting them in their own little feedlot before slaughtering them!

Dandi,
Banner Peak is in the High Sierras. Mt. Ritter is over 14,000 feet high...a little bigger than what's in Oregon. Of all the mountain ranges in the world that I've been to, the Sierras are my favorite. I'm certainly not knocking Oregon, though. That's one of the main reasons I moved up here ten years ago. Yesterday was one of the most beautiful days of my life. I just sat in my back yard (where I can see Shasta in the distance) and watched the birds at all of our feeders throughout the yard. We are backed up against a canal (at ground level), so we get to watch the water birds, too. We don't have a fence because there is a fifteen foot deep ditch that runs along our back property line for one of the irrigation districts in the area (it's in our yard and they charge us an assessment fee, annually to allow their water to run through our yard...which we can't use...go figure). But, with all of the stinging nettles going up and down the banks, it keeps even dogs out. On the other side of the canal are houses, but they are about 300 feet away from us. It's really like the country in our back yard. I love it. I'll let you know when we come to the coast. That would be fun!

Good paleo eating, all my fellow cave dwellers!