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  #16   ^
Old Thu, Feb-09-06, 09:33
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
Experimenter
Posts: 25,863
 
Plan: DDF
Stats: 202/185.4/179 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 72%
Location: San Diego, CA
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Quote:
By coincidence I just happened to switch doctors too!

Too funny!
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  #17   ^
Old Thu, Feb-09-06, 15:56
Citruskiss Citruskiss is offline
I've decided
Posts: 16,864
 
Plan: LC
Stats: 235/137.6/130 Female 5' 5"
BF:haven't a clue
Progress: 93%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enomarb
Good luck. I was put on statins over 6 years ago, and when they doubled my dose I had terrible joint pain in my fingers, and swollen joints. I stopped the statin, and told the doctor. He told me that I was wrong- that the med did not cause joint pain or swelling and that it must be a coincidence. By coincidence I just happened to switch doctors too!


Thank you for this feedback - of course, it's easy to say that it couldn't possibly be the statin right? Geez...

It's the only thing that seems to make sense, especially given how much pain my husband started to experience upon switching to Vytorin in the fall. He gets all the swelling in the joints now too, something he never had before taking statins.

Anyway, my husband was asking..."How long did it take to feel better?"

Thanks again.
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  #18   ^
Old Sun, Feb-12-06, 14:40
Citruskiss Citruskiss is offline
I've decided
Posts: 16,864
 
Plan: LC
Stats: 235/137.6/130 Female 5' 5"
BF:haven't a clue
Progress: 93%
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Just as an update - my husband seems to be feeling a bit better, and it's only been six days without the statin so far.

I'm hopeful.
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  #19   ^
Old Sun, Feb-12-06, 15:27
Enomarb Enomarb is offline
MAINTAINING ON CALP
Posts: 4,838
 
Plan: CALP/CAHHP
Stats: 180/125/150 Female 65 in
BF:
Progress: 183%
Location: usa
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Hi Citrus-
I felt better pretty quickly. I was also taking alleve for the swelling. My hands are fine now.
I also take CoQ10- wonder if that would help? I first read about it here on this board, and in some of the references posted re cholesterol and statins. I went to my (new) doctor and didn't ask if I should take it- I asked him how much CoQ10 he took and he told me!
HTH-
E
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  #20   ^
Old Sun, Feb-12-06, 15:34
Citruskiss Citruskiss is offline
I've decided
Posts: 16,864
 
Plan: LC
Stats: 235/137.6/130 Female 5' 5"
BF:haven't a clue
Progress: 93%
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Thanks Eno - he's taking the CoQ10, I think 150mg or whatever the recommended dose was.

He told me this morning that he's feeling a bit better - I'm so glad. These last few months have been hell with all the weird pain and swelling he's been experiencing since switching to Vytorin.

Thanks again everyone for your support and sharing.
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  #21   ^
Old Sun, Feb-19-06, 21:24
Abd Abd is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 216
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 195/178/150 Male 69 inches
BF:
Progress: 38%
Location: Northampton, Massachusett
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The whole topic of cholesterol is a mess. First of all, if you read the package material on the statins, you will find that they state, somewhere where you may be unlikely to notice it, that "XXX has not been shown to reduce the risk of death from heart disease."

I think some recent work *has* shown a reduction in death from heart disease, but, unfortunately, the same study showed an increase in cancer deaths. Overall, the death rate for those taking statins was not improved.

It is completely unclear that lowering cholesterol levels will improve heart disease risk. Yes, cholesterol levels are associated with heart disease, but an association is not a causal linkage; the theory that cholesterol causes heart disease is apparently unproven, and there is some substantial evidence against it, such as the existence of plenty of people with high cholesterol and no heart disease. Take my mother. I just asked her about her cholesterol and she said, "Yes, I have a problem with that." She is 95 and has no heart problems. She only thinks she has a problem because, I'm sure, her doctor told her she did.

If, however, you believe you must lower your cholesterol (total cholesterol numbers don't mean much, LDL/HDL ratio means more, triglycerides mean more, and fractionated LDL means more, but that last test is hardly ever done, there are always plant stanols (such as in "Cholest Off," by Nature Made, widely sold -- I bought it at Costco); in one study, dietary intervention using plant stanols and other cholesterol-lowering food substances was just as effective as statins in lowering serum cholesterol.

When I was found to have total cholesterol of 285, my wife freaked out. I discussed it with my doctor and we agreed to try to treat it with diet, specifically the South Beach diet. But I did the research (including finding low-carber.org) and found that the science was behind Atkins more than South Beach. So I went on the Atkins diet. And began to come up with a whole series of realizations.

Since I was a child, fat was my favorite food. Yes, I liked frosting on cake, but, really, it was the fat, not the sugar. "Have some bread with your butter," was a comment I heard many times. About twenty years ago, I had a high cholesterol test (240) and, on my doctor's advice, started trying to lower the fat content of my diet, low-fat this, low-fat that, and, of course, no butter. And -- I never put this together -- gradually my weight crept up. On Atkins, my weight went back down.

And my total cholesterol went up, to 385. My wife was pretty upset.... *But* we also did a C-reactive protein test, and the number was *very* low. My HDL was good and the ration was acceptable, and triglycerides were extremely low. Given that and a cardiac CAT scan with an Agatston score of 25, no reason from family history to expect heart disease, not a smoker, etc., my doctor acknowledged that I am, overall, low risk for heart disease, and I obviously don't have it yet.

Yet, he said, every cardiologist in the area would insist that I go on statins. And there is *no* evidence that they would impact anything but my bank balance. Plus, of course, the side effects.

Perhaps, someday, it will turn out that statins are good for you. But it hasn't been proven.

When I was leaving my doctor, he said, "Well, you are doing well, but be careful with the saturated fats." I asked him, "Why?" He paused, then said, "Religion."

That saturated fats are bad for you is a religious belief, it is not a scientific fact. It's truly unfortunate.

I've just been trying to find out if I should take the rest of this large bottle of Cholest Off. Every reference indicates that it will lower cholesterol, but they *assume* that lowering cholesterol will actually reduce risk. There are no studies actually showing a connection. (To be sure, such studies are difficult to do, which is why so much is made of "risk factors." A "risk factor" is something you can measure, whereas "risk" is ... very difficult to estimate. And doctors like to be able to say something with certainty. Statins certainly lower your "risk factor." But do they lower your risk?

My guess is not. I could be wrong. But I would also guess that plant stanols are safer, we've been eating them for a long time, and the claim is made that the human diet used to be *much* higher in plant stanols than it generally is now.

It can be confusing and frustrating, but I don't see any substitute for really doing the research. Just understand that there is a huge amount of material out there from "experts" that is nothing more than repetition of unproven assumptions, deeply held beliefs. Just like we still see with so many "experts" writing about the Atkins diet, none of whom would have expected the truth: the Atkins diet, in general, improves lipid profiles and probably lowers heart disease risk, even though it can be high in fat and even saturated fat, that bete noir.

So why *did* my doctor recommend I avoid saturated fats? Well, my guess is that if he didn't, he'd be open to a malpractice suit should I happen to end up having a heart attack. It's the standard of practice, just as a cardiologist could similarly be sued for not prescribing statins. The system enforces its drug-company-research dogmas, punishing heretics.

And when current research shows that the whole low-fat recommendation was, from the beginning, useless, well, there must be something wrong with the research. After all, we *know* that fat is bad for you. What about the studies that showed that the western diet, compared to low-fat diets in other countries, is producing much higher heart-disease rates?

Bad science. Data selection (the author of the original study selected the countries to include in order to create the pattern in the results, leaving out countries that would have inconveniently contradicted his conclusions).

We badly need media and science we can trust. We'll only get it when we realize that *we* need to make it happen. Government is not going to do it for us.

http://beyondpolitics.org/wiki
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  #22   ^
Old Tue, Feb-21-06, 10:48
Citruskiss Citruskiss is offline
I've decided
Posts: 16,864
 
Plan: LC
Stats: 235/137.6/130 Female 5' 5"
BF:haven't a clue
Progress: 93%
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Wow - what a great read! Thank you for sharing your thoughts on all this.

And I agree with you in that if we begin to believe that perhaps we should lower our cholesterol a bit, then I'd rather go with the stanol/sterol supplement than the statins.

It's been just two weeks since my husband quit statins, and remarkably - he hasn't had to take ANY pain medication at all. Prior to stopping the Vytorin, he was prescribed Naproxen 500mg 2X a day. And even that wasn't working to alleviate the pain he was experiencing.

A couple of years ago, he could get by with making sure he was taking his glucosamine/chondroitin supplement and the occasional ibuprofen tablet as needed. I'm talking...once a week or something.

He still has the occasional soreness, and this is because he does have osteoarthritis. But it's as if it's gone back to the way it was before...meaning, yeah - osteo, and it's not great...but none of this 'can hardly walk' stuff that he was experiencing in the past few months.

I'm just shocked.

I mean...I had my suspicions, but I think I was afraid to hope that the statins might be the culprit. It was as if my husband was headed for life in a wheelchair and soon.

The thing that really confused the whole issue was knowing that he has osteoarthris. So naturally...it was assumed (by us, by the docs, by everyone) that his arthritis had taken a severe turn for the worse. I mean...we were going off to the rheumatologist, the GP and on and on.

They just kept suggesting different types of pain medication.

Anyway, I'm rambling...can't help myself - I'm amazed to see how much better my husband is feeling.

Moral of the story? If you have arthritis and you're taking statins - and all of a sudden you get a major increase in pain - don't be so quick to write it off as "arthritis".
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  #23   ^
Old Fri, Feb-24-06, 14:33
Zuleikaa Zuleikaa is offline
Finding the Pieces
Posts: 17,049
 
Plan: Mishmash
Stats: 365/308.0/185 Female 66
BF:
Progress: 32%
Location: Maryland, US
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I'm so glad you D is better!!!
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  #24   ^
Old Mon, Mar-13-06, 19:42
Bayrat's Avatar
Bayrat Bayrat is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 413
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 226.5/193.0/185 Male 72 inches
BF:
Progress: 81%
Location: Upstate NY
Default Poison Pill

Just a bit of life experience to share.

My cholesterol elevated after being on Atkins for several years. Even though I had lost forty pounds and exercise regularly, it was higher than when not low-carbing.

I finally gave in and let my doctor put me on 10mg of Lipitor. After taking it for five months, I feel like an old man. Symptoms have crept up on me and it wasn't until this morning I associated them with the poison in my system.

Between the muscle cramps, facial twitches, weakness, shaky "MS like" body and severe joint pain I feel like an old man. I am hoping for a full recovery but after discovering literally thousands of testimonials describing the debilitating affect of this drug I am extremely concerned.

Many people claim to have severe muscle degeneration and are not recovering very well. Some of this apparently can be attributed to the lack of co-enzyme Q10 which the staten drugs deplete.

I will never again take these drugs. I am looking into some alternatives such as vitamin C and Niacin.

I hope I can save some others from having to deal with this poison pill.
__________________
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  #25   ^
Old Mon, Mar-13-06, 23:34
Citruskiss Citruskiss is offline
I've decided
Posts: 16,864
 
Plan: LC
Stats: 235/137.6/130 Female 5' 5"
BF:haven't a clue
Progress: 93%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayrat
Just a bit of life experience to share.

My cholesterol elevated after being on Atkins for several years. Even though I had lost forty pounds and exercise regularly, it was higher than when not low-carbing.

I finally gave in and let my doctor put me on 10mg of Lipitor. After taking it for five months, I feel like an old man. Symptoms have crept up on me and it wasn't until this morning I associated them with the poison in my system.

Between the muscle cramps, facial twitches, weakness, shaky "MS like" body and severe joint pain I feel like an old man. I am hoping for a full recovery but after discovering literally thousands of testimonials describing the debilitating affect of this drug I am extremely concerned.

Many people claim to have severe muscle degeneration and are not recovering very well. Some of this apparently can be attributed to the lack of co-enzyme Q10 which the staten drugs deplete.

I will never again take these drugs. I am looking into some alternatives such as vitamin C and Niacin.

I hope I can save some others from having to deal with this poison pill.
__________________



Hi there Bayrat,

I was just looking at these forums for the first time in a couple of days, and I noticed someone (you) had posted to this thread I started about the statin drugs and their side effects - and my husband just happened to be standing right behind me as I fired up the computer...

He was reading what you wrote and as he was standing behind me, he was nodding and saying..."Yeah, that's how I felt...I felt old".

This is putting it mildly.

Unfortunately the situation was confounded by the fact that he does have osteoarthritis, and because of that - it was all too easy to just assume that the arthritis had taken a severe turn for the worse. Things got bad enough that just before Christmas that we asked for a referral to a rheumatologist..and this guy simply gave him a prescription for a high dose of naproxen to help deal with the pain. The naproxen seemed to help a wee bit, but after a week or so, even the twice daily doses of 500mg naproxen couldn't alleviate the pain he was experiencing.

I thought this was very odd, and by this point, I'd been reading up on the whole "statin side effect" thing.

Naturally, when we mentioned the statin drugs to both his regular doctor and the new rheumatologist - the idea that the cholesterol-lowering medication could be a contributing factor was sort of shrugged off. Out came the pain meds and comments such as, "Well let me know if this works for you" and so on.

Adding more pills upon pills ....while never considering that one of the pills in question could be a problem. Seems kinda ridiculous doesn't it?

It's kind of a "Oh no, it couldn't be that" kind of mentality.

Enough about this whole statin side effect thing....by writing the above, I was just trying to let you know that after seeing what happened to my husband, I now realize that despite what the "experts" might say, it's definitely possible that the statin drugs can be a rather *painful* experience for some people.

You know what though?

My husband dropped the Vytorin (and the Lipitor that preceeded the Vytorin), joined me in the whole "low carb" thing, and has made a real turnaround.

In the past couple of months, he's lost about 20lbs, and has no need for the naproxen at all.

Prior to stopping the Vytorin, he needed 2 x 500mg Naproxen a day and even that wouldn't alleviate all the pain he was experiencing. Before discontinuing the Vytorin, he couldn't even go grocery shopping with me. He walked like he could barely move at times. As time went on, with all this pain continuing...day after day...he began to despair. Facing the rest of his life with all this pain started to seem like a daunting prospect. That's how bad it was.

So ....after trying numerous other arthritis remedies...he finally dumped the Vytorin.

And miracle of miracles...it took all of a week for most of the symptoms to subside.

He's been taking CoQ10 all along (at my insistence after reading up on it). He's also taking 1 gram of Niacin a day, along with 2 high-dose capsules of fish oil per day. There's the glucosamine chondroitin as well (which is helpful for arthritis).

The cholesterol is holding steady at 187 (I don't have the exact breakdown right now), and life is looking good. His total cholesterol was at 300 when he was initially put on the Lipitor.

Oddly, we also made a major change in his diet back then too. Over time, his cholesterol was reduced to 209.

But somehow this wasn't "good enough" for his doctor. The doc wanted him to go on something new called Vytorin.

That's when all the trouble started.

But looking back...his arthritis actually got markedly worse upon introduction of Lipitor. Whe he was switched to Vytorin things got hellish. That's when I got really suspicious. The change with the Lipitor was gradual...and so it became easy to believe it was just his arthritis acting up. With the switch to Vytorin...there was a dramatic turn for the worse. The arthritis seemed to be unbearable. I was having a hard time accepting the idea that my husband's arthritis could get so bad, so quickly.

We tried various things to deal with it (thinking it was the arthritis). Everything from avocado soybean unsaponifiable supplements to something called "Fluid Joint". I tell ya...there's a kazillion supplements on the market that supposedly help with arthritis. Most don't work. The glucosamine/chondroitin does help...the rest doesn't.

The point is - if you feel awful on these statin drugs, it's entirely possible for you to feel better again, and this doesn't have to mean that you're jeopardizing your health in some way. You can try the Niacin, which ups your "good cholesterol". You can add fish oil supplements. You can get lots of exercise and add in tons of vegetables to your diet.

By the way...the niacin's kind of a pain. You get this awful flushing/red/itching side effect. You'll want to start on a low dose of it (say 100mg) twice a day for a couple of weeks. Then you'll want to work your way up to maybe 500mg twice a day. This being said, it might take you several weeks to work up to that. Don't get discouraged by the "flushing" side effect. It'll only last a couple of days with each dosage increase. Just take it slow and work your way up to 1 gram or more per day. This will make a huge difference in your "good" cholesterol.

Fish oil is very good, as is adding some flax to some of your veggie side dishes.

Do some homework, and give yourself a chance to "right" your cholesterol via non-pharmaceutical means. When I say "right" your cholesterol, I'm not talking an overall lowering..but rather gettting the ratios right. Check out some of the other threads in this forum...such as the stickies at the top of the forum on understanding the breakdown of cholesterol readings.

Despite how you might feel now....it's entirely possible for you to feel a whole lot better. There's a chance that the statin drugs are causing some significant side effects. I don't think this happens to everyone, but I do know they can be truly awful for some people.

If you decide to stop the statin, you'll need to keep an eye on the overal cholesterol picture, while taking steps to improve your "lipid profile", so to speak.

This being said, you may just feel a *whole* lot better without the Lipitor.

Hang in there, and here's hoping you start to feel like yourself again.
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  #26   ^
Old Tue, Mar-14-06, 17:52
Bayrat's Avatar
Bayrat Bayrat is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 413
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 226.5/193.0/185 Male 72 inches
BF:
Progress: 81%
Location: Upstate NY
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Citruskiss,

Thanks for the encouragement. I am so mad at myself, don't even smoke dope yet let a doctor feed me this for a slightly elevated level of 218.

I hope it goes away, I have enough pain from my years on the construction crews with sore back and joints, don't need to be turned into a cripple by "medicine".
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  #27   ^
Old Tue, Mar-14-06, 22:35
nedgoudy nedgoudy is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 517
 
Plan: Whey Protein & Skim Milk
Stats: 240/150/160 Male 66 inches
BF:No Thanks!
Progress: 113%
Location: Los Angeles County
Default

If your Cholesterol is high,
why quit statins when the
latest study on Crestor indicates
it REVERSES plaque build up in
the arteries.

If it ever becomes a problem for
me, (I don't see that happening
for a long time,) and given 10 or
20 more years of experience with
the drug, I doubt that I would
hesitate a minute to take another pill.

Better living through Chemistry

I learned that little ditty off a black
light poster in the 60's.
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  #28   ^
Old Wed, Mar-15-06, 06:36
Bayrat's Avatar
Bayrat Bayrat is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 413
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 226.5/193.0/185 Male 72 inches
BF:
Progress: 81%
Location: Upstate NY
Angry Perhaps

I am not going to question that it will do what it says it does. But in addition to all of that for many of us it comes with crippling side effects. Just ask me, I can wink at you now without blinking my right eye.
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  #29   ^
Old Wed, Mar-15-06, 06:56
Zuleikaa Zuleikaa is offline
Finding the Pieces
Posts: 17,049
 
Plan: Mishmash
Stats: 365/308.0/185 Female 66
BF:
Progress: 32%
Location: Maryland, US
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nedgoudy
If your Cholesterol is high,
why quit statins when the
latest study on Crestor indicates
it REVERSES plaque build up in
the arteries.

A good quality fish oil can do the same thing.
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  #30   ^
Old Wed, Mar-15-06, 08:37
NYNikki NYNikki is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 569
 
Plan: Self-Made LC
Stats: 255/129/150 Female 5'9
BF:
Progress: 120%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayrat
I am not going to question that it will do what it says it does. But in addition to all of that for many of us it comes with crippling side effects. Just ask me, I can wink at you now without blinking my right eye.


And... I have permanent muscle damage.

I guess Bayrat & I are the lucky ones because we are still alive and breathing and living with the horrible side effects.
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