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  #16   ^
Old Mon, Jan-23-06, 11:18
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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For soy I think you have to add something for the beasties to eat. At least, the recipe I consulted added honey. I've been adding a little honey to my non-milk yogurts and letting the beasties have run of it for a long, long time.

Last night I made a slurry of 2 ripe mangos, water and coconut milk. I added a little coconut flour hoping it would thicken things but I think it just made it grainy. And I 'yogurtized' it overnight. Hopefully it'll thicken up to about kefir level after it cools.
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  #17   ^
Old Mon, Jan-23-06, 11:46
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Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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Hey, here's a very technical discussion of milk yogurt as viewed under an electron microscope. Very interesting!

http://www.medicinalfoodnews.com/vol01/issue5/kalab.htm

According to this article it is the heating process BEFORE fermenting that sets the stage for getting a good yogurt texture.

Last edited by Nancy LC : Mon, Jan-23-06 at 14:17.
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  #18   ^
Old Mon, Jan-23-06, 15:40
binki binki is offline
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Huh. I always thought you heated it to kill any bad buggies that might wreck your yogurt...or you!

Learn something new every day.
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  #19   ^
Old Mon, Jan-23-06, 17:16
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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It puts nubs on your casein proteins, so they'll cling together better! Wow! What a cool article.
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  #20   ^
Old Mon, Jan-23-06, 20:01
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LadyBelle LadyBelle is offline
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Carb countdown milk still contains some lactose, just not as much as regular milk. I think it has butter milk as an ingredient though, so it may already have those cultures happening which heating may also help, not sure there.

I made some yogurt last night that was something like 75% heavy cream and 25% hood 2% milk (can't get whole here anymore) it is so thick it is almost yocheese without the draining.
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  #21   ^
Old Mon, Jan-23-06, 22:00
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IslandGirl IslandGirl is offline
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Plan: Atkins,PP - wgt in %
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Quote:
Originally Posted by binki
Huh. I always thought you heated it to kill any bad buggies that might wreck your yogurt...or you!

Learn something new every day.


Guess that's the difference between the yogurt recipes that have you heat to scalding (just below boiling, or foodsafe killing of competing beasties temp) and then cool to 110F, and those that just have you heat to rolling around and fermenting wildly temp of 110F and have at it...
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  #22   ^
Old Tue, Jan-24-06, 10:22
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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Someone try out the heating to 185 and holding for 15 minutes and see if that makes the yogurt thicker! I'm really curious now. I wish I could do it, but I can't have milk. *grump*
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  #23   ^
Old Tue, Jan-24-06, 11:20
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ShayKNJ ShayKNJ is offline
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I haven't tried making the yogurt yet since I still have so much greek yogurt on hand. I have to finish that first it's too expensive.

I am thinking of the Carb Countdown 2% since I can not get the regular and half & half combination.
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  #24   ^
Old Wed, Jan-25-06, 03:51
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IslandGirl IslandGirl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy LC
Someone try out the heating to 185 and holding for 15 minutes and see if that makes the yogurt thicker! I'm really curious now. I wish I could do it, but I can't have milk. *grump*


Actually, I think it was 160F wasn't it? On that yogurt electron microscopy page?

Anyway, I made some creme fraiche using that method today, and it started thickening PDQ! I was very impressed...

I heated whipping cream (35% here in Canada, can't even FIND true heavy cream ) to 160F, then let it sit on the counter to cool to 110F precisely (note to self, baking yeast likes that temperature, too), then stirred in about 1/6th the volume of buttermilk.

By the end of my "shift", it was well on its way to being lovely and thick. I'll check it tomorrow and report.
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  #25   ^
Old Wed, Jan-25-06, 10:11
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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No kidding! I used to make Creme Fraiche just by letting the jar sit out (after stirring in buttermilk). Sometimes it took days for it to coagulate! I'll reread the electron yogurt article and confirm.
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  #26   ^
Old Wed, Jan-25-06, 10:14
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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Here's the quote:
Quote:
If, for example, the milk is not heated at about 90°C for a time long enough (about 15 min), larger pores may develop in the yogurt body in some areas and larger clusters of casein micelles may develop in other areas.

90 degrees Celsius = 194 degrees Fahrenheit

That's pretty hot!

Clearly we need an electron microscope ourselves so we can investigate this further.
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  #27   ^
Old Wed, Jan-25-06, 13:06
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IslandGirl IslandGirl is offline
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Actually, I was thinking of this part:

Quote:
{edited a bit re pics and diagrams}
Traditionally, yogurt has been made in the Balkans and the Middle East by heating the milk to partially remove water. When the temperature of the milk reaches 85°C, {ok, that would be 185°F, I misremembered} one particular micellar protein (kappa-casein) at the surface of the casein micelles reacts with one particular whey protein (beta-lactoglobulin). This interaction produces minute 'bumps' on the casein micelle surfaces ... The beta-lactoglobulin-kappa-casein complex later prevents other casein micelles from getting attached at these sites. 'Later' means when yogurt bacteria metabolize lactose and produce lactic acid and the milk starts to coagulate.

The surfaces of the heated casein micelles are partially blocked, so only a few micelles can interact. This leads to the formation of short branched micellar chains. When the coagulation is complete, the milk has changed into a gel. {this be yogurt, as we know and love it } Under an electron microscope, the gel looks like a sponge with small pores filled with the whey ...


All that being said, for foodsafe purposes, 160F for 3M is sufficient for beastie control if that's a concern...so they tell me -- and I definitely don't want to range much around 190F because that's uncomfortably close to boiling temp for me and that changes the flavour of the milk considerably, as well as fully denaturing/cooking those milk proteins (hey, probably related).

Quote:
The unique microstructure of yogurt means that all the liquid (whey) is immobilized within its body. Of course, no consumer would like to buy yogurt from which whey separates easily. This would be a sign that the yogurt is susceptible to ‘syneresis’, and that there was something wrong in the yogurt manufacture. If, for example, the milk is not heated at about 90°C for a time long enough (about 15 min), larger pores may develop in the yogurt body in some areas and larger clusters of casein micelles may develop in other areas. {i.e., the yogurt breaks and weeps, doesn't have a consistent small pore size gel} The whey then starts showing in the containers during storage. To be on the safe side, some yogurt manufacturers use small additions of various 'thickening agents' such as starch gel, various plant gums or pectin to the milk to improve the retention of water in yogurt. Water may also be retained in the yogurt by increasing the amount of milk solids but in this case the reduction of the pore sizes changes the overall mouthfeel of the yogurt and is not desirable. The preceding statements about the solid nature of yogurt are correct considering the so-called set-style yogurt. There is also a liquid yogurt variety on the market. It is made in the same way as set-style yogurt and then is pumped into retail containers, whereby the body of the yogurt is broken into small particles, which allow the yogurt to be poured. {yup, shake it or stir it before it's set -- which is finalized while chilling in the fridge, by the way -- and the delicate gel is 'broken' and it pours...or you can make yocheese by filtering/draining it}


It pretty much appears to be an ART to getting the time and temp right, right there between 185F and 190F, especially for milk yogurt, which will be thinner than a cream yogurt (if we're talking basic dairy products as a base).

Last edited by IslandGirl : Wed, Jan-25-06 at 13:23.
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  #28   ^
Old Wed, Jan-25-06, 13:32
Gailew Gailew is offline
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I've been getting Goat's Milk Yogurt from Trader Joe's and draining it overnight. I thought with the whey drained out, it became Greek yogurt. It's very creamy and has a mild flavor. I use it now instead of sour cream or cream cheese. I thought I'd be totally off cow's milk with this, but those lattes keep getting in the way! ~Gail
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  #29   ^
Old Wed, Jan-25-06, 13:47
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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Plan: DDF
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Have you tried Goat's milk in your lattes? No idea if you'd like it or not. I bought some from TJ's and it tasted pretty similar to cow's milk to me, what tiny taste I had.
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  #30   ^
Old Wed, Jan-25-06, 13:51
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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Say beta-lactoglobulin-kappa-casein complex 5 times real fast.

Yeah, 15 minutes just under a boil would be pretty tough. I'd try it if I could eat it.
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