HYPO but not getting better??? : Thyroid Disease Forum : Active Low-Carber Forums

#46 ^

Sun, Feb-20-05, 16:25

Natrushka

Senior Member

Posts: 11,512

Plan: IF +LC
Stats: 287/165/165 Female 66"

BF:
Progress: 100%

Quote:

Originally Posted by dina1957

Nat:
I guess you got both Rx by your GP or Endo? For me, it's just a start and I need to find a good Endo, it's really hard, mainstream drs simply do not want to deal with menopausal women, they rather Rx antidepresssants cuz they think we all crazy, LOL and it is the only way to make us addicted to drugs, you know what I mean

. Sounds like consrpiracy theory to me.

They do not want to deal with hormonal issues, it's too much work and no profit.

Dina, I had to go through 3 GPs and an Endo. One of the GPs told me that if anyone treated me for hypothyroidism it would be "malpractice" and she would bet money that I would never find anyone to treat me. She did offer me paxil though. The Endo put me on synthroid and told me after my first labs I was 'cured' - any more thyroid hormones and I'd be hyper. My FT4 was 15 in a range of 10-20. She also told me that I'd never be 'normal' - this was as good as it was going to get.

I fired all of them, I even wrote the college of physicians and surgeons in Ontario about the GP who bet money I'd never find treatment.

I found a private clinic where they deal only in bio-identical hormones. Where they run extensive tests and where they promote the use of lifestyle and diet to help you get to optimal health. I have a Doctor, a biochemist, a pharmacist (and a psychiatrist if I want one) there to answer my questions and e-mails when I need them to. They've changed my life. I had to pay for all of this - it's not covered by the province's health care plan (OHIP) but it's been worth every damned penny. I have never felt this good in my life. I've come to appreciate the saying "You Get What You Pay For."

Cheers,
Nat

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#47 ^

Sun, Feb-20-05, 17:35

msbusche

New Member

Posts: 1

Plan: atkins
Stats: 120/120/115 Female 5ft 4 in

BF:
Progress:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sunshne24

Hi, this is my first post hopefully someone can help me out. I am 33 and 2 years ago I had RAI for Graves. Since going Hypo I have not felt right and have suffered many symptoms despite "normal" lab results. Within 3 months of starting T4 I had achieved normal levels and my Endo dismissed my problems as not being Thyroid related. In the last 2 years I've had all kinds of tests for different diseases and everything comes back normal. I have all the classic Hypo symptoms, puffy eyes and face, fluid retention, brittle hair thats falling out, muscle & joint pain to name a few. However unlike most Hypo's I am losing weight rather than gaining. When healthy I weighed 120 now I'm about 105 and that includes bloating and fluid retention. Has anyone ever heard of being Hypo and underweight?? Ive experienced food allergies and am taking antifulngal meds for Candida. I was on Levothroid .075 and my TSH was all over the place ranging from .9 to 4.2 within 3 weeks time. My doc said this was fine since I was within the normal range. I was having difficulty concentrating and my memory was pretty bad. I increased my dose on my own in Nov. up to .1 and I noticed some improvement but still not great. I'm confused because whenever I increase my dose I experience a worsening of HYPO symptoms (especially the first 2 weeks). Does this happen to anybody else? When I put all of my test results together I notice a pattern that even though I'm increasing my T4 my T3 seems to be dropping but it is still within normal limits. My last labs looked like this:
TSH 1.1 (.5-5.5)
FT4 1.6 (.9-1.8)
Total t3 101 (70-200)

While on .075 my T3 was closer to 150 but now it has dropped. My doctor never tests Free T3, I'm not sure why.
I confessed to my doc that I had increased my meds and since I have no signs of going Hyper I talked him into adding T3. I have been taking Cytomel for 2 1/2 weeks now and as usual the first two weeks were hell and I felt more Hypo than ever very lethargic and staying in bed all day. Now I'm doing better but havent noticed any great improvement. Has anyone else tried t4/t3. Should I have noticed some improvement by now? I have 4 more weeks till I can take test. Sorry so many questions but its been 2 years since I felt normal and I've been on disibility for over 1 year because my symptoms are so bad. My Endo. says I'm the "odd bird" because in his 22 years experience he hasnt encountered someone with so many problems. I find this hard to believe since all of my symptoms are HYPO symptoms except for the weight loss. Any advise is welcome.
Thanks,
Rachel

I was hoping you might be able to tell me how what medications and supplements you are on and what doses?

#48 ^

Sun, Feb-20-05, 18:22

dina1957

Registered Member

Posts: 1,854

Plan: My own
Stats: 194/000/150 Female 5'5"

BF:Not sure
Progress: 441%

Location: Bay Area

Quote:

Originally Posted by Natrushka

I found a private clinic where they deal only in bio-identical hormones.

Good for you, Nat, unfortunately for me it's in Canada. I've searched the web to see if something similar is available in SF/Bay Area but so far could not find anything expect Women to Women clinic in... Oregon. Just in case, if you come across any site re-bioidentical hormones treatment in North California, please, send me the link.
Cheers,
D.

#49 ^

Sun, Feb-20-05, 19:16

fridayeyes fridayeyes is offline

Senior Member

Posts: 2,044

Plan: low glycemic
Stats: // Female jkl

BF:
Progress: 69%

Dina, I believe I know of one in Palm Springs, and Southwest is cheap.

Google Dr. Rouzier in Palm Springs on Tahquitz Way

#50 ^

Sun, Feb-20-05, 20:19

dina1957

Registered Member

Posts: 1,854

Plan: My own
Stats: 194/000/150 Female 5'5"

BF:Not sure
Progress: 441%

Location: Bay Area

Quote:

Originally Posted by fridayeyes

Dina, I believe I know of one in Palm Springs, and Southwest is cheap.

Google Dr. Rouzier in Palm Springs on Tahquitz Way

Thank you, Friday, I've marked his home page.
D.

#51 ^

Sun, Feb-20-05, 21:11

fridayeyes fridayeyes is offline

Senior Member

Posts: 2,044

Plan: low glycemic
Stats: // Female jkl

BF:
Progress: 69%

Dina - Dr. Carl (Karl?) Ebnother's practice is another good one up in the Bay Area. So is Dr. Catherine Grellet.

Cheers,

Friday

#52 ^

Sun, Feb-20-05, 22:20

dina1957

Registered Member

Posts: 1,854

Plan: My own
Stats: 194/000/150 Female 5'5"

BF:Not sure
Progress: 441%

Location: Bay Area

I'll start with the local ones, will call for an appointment once the blood test results are avaiable.

Thanks,
D.

#53 ^

Mon, Feb-21-05, 09:46

Natrushka

Senior Member

Posts: 11,512

Plan: IF +LC
Stats: 287/165/165 Female 66"

BF:
Progress: 100%

Quote:

Originally Posted by dina1957

Friday beat me to it, Dina, but I highly recommend the two she's mentioned - the Dr in Palm Springs sounds awesome and the guy (Ebnother) get's a lot of good recommendations from thyroid pateints and from the Broda Barnes Foundation, which can only mean good things.

N

#54 ^

Tue, Mar-01-05, 23:48

dina1957

Registered Member

Posts: 1,854

Plan: My own
Stats: 194/000/150 Female 5'5"

BF:Not sure
Progress: 441%

Location: Bay Area

Quote:

Originally Posted by dina1957

Thank you, Nat. I just came back from GP, she agreed to check my hormones, so I got the following tests done:
TSH
FT4
FT3
Cortisol
Estradiol
Progesteron
Testosteron

Hi Guys:
Just got my test results back:
Normal Range
TSH : 1.1 uIU/mL 0.2-5.5
FT4 : 1.1 ng/dL 0.8-1.7
FT3: 258 pg/dL 230-420 pg/dL
FSH: 5.9miU/mL -
Cortisol: 8.6 ug/dL -
Progesteron: 3.5ng/mL -
Estradiol: 37 pg/mL -
Testos: <20 nG/dL 20-80
Hb1C: 5.4% 4.6-6.0
I've got the test done on mid cycle. I've google estrogen/progesteron but so far could not find a normal range. What do you guys think? I did not talk to my GP since all thyroid panel is within "normal" range.
Thanks a lot,
Dina

#55 ^

Tue, Mar-01-05, 23:50

dina1957

Registered Member

Posts: 1,854

Plan: My own
Stats: 194/000/150 Female 5'5"

BF:Not sure
Progress: 441%

Location: Bay Area

Quote:

Originally Posted by fridayeyes

Dina - Dr. Carl (Karl?) Ebnother's practice is another good one up in the Bay Area. So is Dr. Catherine Grellet.

Cheers,

Friday

I made an appointment with Dr.Grellet just in case but will also look up those listed in SF at Thyroid doctors.
D.

#56 ^

Wed, Mar-02-05, 08:03

Natrushka

Senior Member

Posts: 11,512

Plan: IF +LC
Stats: 287/165/165 Female 66"

BF:
Progress: 100%

Quote:

Originally Posted by dina1957

Hi Guys:
Just got my test results back:
Normal Range
TSH : 1.1 uIU/mL 0.2-5.5
FT4 : 1.1 ng/dL 0.8-1.7
FT3: 258 pg/dL 230-420 pg/dL

Dina, I'm sure I don't have to tell you that your FT3 and FT4 are low, right? You want them in the top 3rd of the range, yours are in the bottom 3rd, especially that FT3. No wonder you feel like crap!

Quote:

FSH: 5.9miU/mL -
Cortisol: 8.6 ug/dL -
Progesteron: 3.5ng/mL -
Estradiol: 37 pg/mL -
Testos: <20 nG/dL 20-80
Hb1C: 5.4% 4.6-6.0

Did they not give you a range or "< than" for estradiol and progesterone, cortisol or FSH? I'll try to pull my last tests up and see if they were in the same units.

I found this at LEF that might help a little (my values are in metric not imperial)

Progesterone
Postmenopausal women >2.0 ng/mL
Pre-menopausal women Amount can vary from 0.2-28.0 ng/mL during the cycle. Use time of cycle to ascertain deficiency

Judgeing by this, your progesterone is low, Dina. You did this mid cycle, you should be near where progesterone peaks following ovulation (if it happens).

Estradiol
Postmenopausal women 50-150 pg/mL The lowest amount needed to be symptom-free (Postmenopausal women who are not taking estrogen drugs are normally around 30 pg/mL.)

I know your testosterone is low - it's beyond the reference range.

I found this for cortisol from a lab:
Cortisol, AM 4.3-22.4 µg/dL

And this for FSH:

Follicular 4.0-13.0
Luteal 2.0-13.0
Midcycle 5.0-22.0
Postmenopausal 20.0-138.0

Putting yours low, and not high where you'd think it would be based on your other tests. According to your FSH you're not menopausal, but looking at your estrogen, preogesterone and testosterone you are. Probably all mixed up with low thyroid hormones.

Good luck with Grellet - sounds like a good hormone doctor is exactly what you need. And if she doesn't pan out there's a guy in palm springs... who's The Bomb

Nat

#57 ^

Wed, Mar-02-05, 11:33

dina1957

Registered Member

Posts: 1,854

Plan: My own
Stats: 194/000/150 Female 5'5"

BF:Not sure
Progress: 441%

Location: Bay Area

Quote:

Originally Posted by Natrushka

Nat:
Now I know why, I also took my basal temperautre today (2nd day of my cycle) and it is 96.9, that speaks for itself.

Quote:

Did they not give you a range or "< than" for estradiol and progesterone, cortisol or FSH? I'll try to pull my last tests up and see if they were in the same units.

Strangly enough, they did not. May be because these hormones are cyclical?

Quote:

Judgeing by this, your progesterone is low, Dina. You did this mid cycle, you should be near where progesterone peaks following ovulation (if it happens).

I've googled progesteron and the ratio progesteron/estrogen should be 100 better 200. I can have my period without ovulating, but if progesteron is too low, my period will cease, right?

Quote:

Estradiol
Postmenopausal women 50-150 pg/mL The lowest amount needed to be symptom-free (Postmenopausal women who are not taking estrogen drugs are normally around 30 pg/mL.)

So, should my estradiol be higher or lower?

Quote:

I found this for cortisol from a lab:
Cortisol, AM 4.3-22.4 µg/dL

Mine was taken midday.

Quote:

Putting yours low, and not high where you'd think it would be based on your other tests. According to your FSH you're not menopausal, but looking at your estrogen, preogesterone and testosterone you are. Probably all mixed up with low thyroid hormones.

Nat: based on TSH are am not menopausal yet and my periods are still on schedule, but I have the same problem with TSH, it's low enough so they think I'm not hypoT. What a mess, I partially blame eating too low carbs for too long, everytime I lower my cabrs I feel like a dead person, seriosuly. I wanted to support DH who all of a sudden decided to jump on LC wagon, and did around 30g carbs for a week. OMG, not only I gained 5 pounds from all this cheese and cream, but I was completely narcoleptic, no energy, my BGs were runing 20-30 points higher than usual, and I was achy all over like never before.

Quote:

Good luck with Grellet - sounds like a good hormone doctor is exactly what you need. And if she doesn't pan out there's a guy in palm springs... who's The Bomb

Thank you, Nat, I will think about Palm Springs, I need to do something about it before I fall appart completely. My mother told me it will go away on it's own as soon as my hormones "settle down" but I can't live another 5-6 years like this. BTW, there is site "Women-to-Women", I think they do bioidentical hormones too and treat you based on your sympthoms rather than blood tests. Any references?
Thanks much.Appreciate your help.
Dina

#58 ^

Wed, Mar-02-05, 15:33

wcollier

Mad Scientist

Posts: 4,402

Plan: Healthy eating/lifestyle
Stats: 156/115/115 Female 5'4 - small frame

BF:
Progress: 100%

Hi Dina:

Your cortisol levels are also too low. There could be something going on with cortisol levels that could be affecting your blood sugars. Anything below 15 is too low. The test only tells you how your baseline cortisol levels are, never mind how you respond to stress. You should be asking for an ACTH stim test. If you start thyroid therapy without addressing the adrenals, you'll feel worse. I've been there in my impatience to "get better".

I'm looking at your results and they scream "hypothalamus" or "pituitary" problem (HPA axis). It affects more than just thyroid and messes up lab results, especially TSH. I also read that you are achy all over. Do you have disturbed sleep throughout the night also? Add in muscle problems with chronic (not transient) disturbed sleep and you can add Fibromyalgia into the mix, which Dr. Teitelbaum claims is a symptom of hypothalamus dysfunction.

Having said all this, good luck finding someone to treat you. Most doctors will look at your cortisol level and think you're ok. You need someone to treat both your adenals AND thyroid (and estrogen, progesterone, testosterone and PROBABLY DHEA), and that's even harder to find than an "enlightened" thyroid doc.

If you aren't having any luck, definately consider the guys down in Palm Springs. I can't remember if Ebnother's deals with "total" hormone balance, but Friday or Nat will probably know better. If you think "Fibro", I can throw out a couple of names too. Hell, worse case scenario, some doctors do telephone consultations.

Wanda

Last edited by wcollier : Wed, Mar-02-05 at 19:21.

#59 ^

Wed, Mar-02-05, 15:56

CindyG

Senior Member

Posts: 2,894

Plan: PSMF
Stats: 328/255.0/150 Female 5' 6"

BF:52%/43%/20%
Progress: 41%

Location: Northern California

Hi Dina,

Sorry to hear your feeling so terrible. We can all relate.

I've been through the "your labs are normal" business too. Had to find a new doc. I saw Dr. Ebnothers associate Jill Snyder MD, Dr. Ebnothers is retired. She was great. She treated me based on my labs(Free T4&3) and symptoms. She's really nice, very understanding and actually has been following up with me pretty consistently. She does not accept insurance, but if you have a ppo plan you can usually get reimbursed. She's located in So. San Jose.

Good luck to you!

#60 ^

Wed, Mar-02-05, 16:08

Natrushka

Senior Member

Posts: 11,512

Plan: IF +LC
Stats: 287/165/165 Female 66"

BF:
Progress: 100%

Quote:

Originally Posted by dina1957

Dina, I think in the case of your female hormones they've already 'settled down' as your mother would say. This is why you feel like crap! If you feel bad NOW you're going to feel even worse in a few years, when menopause hits for real. By fixing things now you can make what happens later not be as extreme.

I've never heard of woman-to-woman, but any place that uses bioidentical hormones and treats on symptoms has to be looked at closely IMHO.

I think the guy in PS and the woman Cindy is seeing, Dr. Snyder, would be two places to start (Snyder is Ebnother's protegé and she understands thyroid AND adrenals) - which I think you need, much like Wanda suggested.