I appreciate your sharing Ksrt. My insulin levels have gone from 93 to 12 on Atkins. Are you saying that, that level will go back up eventually even though I'm not eating any more carbs? I don't find it difficult to stick with Atkins....I don't crave carbs, but, having a look at the zone it seems calorie restrictive and I know I have problems with that.

Hi,

Yes, unfortunately, that is what I'm saying. Lots of people stop losing weight and even start gaining without changing their Atkins diet if they do it long enough. Hormones are slow to change, but if you do it for 5 or 10 years or life, you will really mess yourself up. Insulin and adrenaline are supposed to be in balance. When you take your insulin too low, your adrenaline has to go too high. This is why you feel better and things work better on Atkins, because adrenaline helps you use biochemicals in your body and you feel good. But you are borrowing from your future adrenaline stores which have to be rebuilt but can't be if you keep your insulin too low. Therefore, your only way out of this mess is to eat more food and carbs and you will get very fat when you do it. Then your health will be even worse until you readjust your hormones back into balance. If you are older and have menopausal issues when you do, it will be even harder. Death is the ultimate using yourself up more than you can rebuild so it doesn't make sense to take away your rebuilding hormone (insulin) and your rebuilding material (food). Carbs have different nutrients in them than meat or fat, so even if you eat 3 times the meat and fat to keep your calories up, it doesn't offset what you lose by not eating fruits, vegetables, and whole grains.

The zone can be too low calorie. I don't really do the zone even though I call it that. I do Schwarzbein's diet which is balanced and not too low carb. I started with the zone and they are similar. Just don't follow any advice to drop grains or starchy vegetables from your diet and you can do the zone. The main point is that whatever you do, you need to keep eating slightly higher carb intake than protein and enough calories to keep you out of ketosis.

I consider Dr. Schwarzbein's and Dr. Vliet's books to be my bibles and it took both of them to really get the full understanding for pcos. Atkins was a cardiologist and heart disease used to be considered a man's disease and so my guess is that Atkins was developed for and tested on men. Atkins in women lowers your thyroid and estradiol which tells me that your body feels you are starving and thus gets rid of your ability to have a baby and lowers your metabolism so you won't die.

You might also want to look at your birth control pills to see if they are high in progesterone. If you read Dr. Vliet's books, she names some pills that are higher in estradiol which is better for pcos patients. I highly recommend Dr. Vliet's book for everybody with pcos.

Gee KSRT

None of that makes any sense. I WANT my insulin lower. Normal range is less than 10 and mine was 93 and is still 12. Hypoglycaemia causes adrenaline surges and since my blood sugar is now constant and stable due to a low glycaemic load I'm actually giving my adrenals a nice rest.

I DO eat vegetables, some fruits and I know of no nutrients that I can get from wholegrains that are not present in abundance in leafy greens. Starchy vegetables like potato? The glycaemic index on that is practically table sugar. Why would I eat that when I have a history of unstable blood sugars???

I don't understand about the rebuilding...what is my body trying to rebuild? Study after study shows that low carbing is the best diet for losing fat rather than lean muscle.

Did you really do Atkins for 3 years? As your primary source of food SHOULD have been vegetables!

I think you'll find most people on this site will dispute your saying Atkins will hinder your efforts to conceive as that's how they've done it.

I've tried eating more carbs than protein. It's called a low fat diet and it didn't take 5 to 10 years to make me sick. It made me sick immediately with migraines, high blood sugars followed by low blood sugars, panic attacks (now that's an adrenaline rush), abscesses and a general feeling of being poisoned.

I think you must not have followed Atkins properly if you think there are no vegetables, fruits or whole grains. Btw my hormones didn't take a long time to change. My insulin dropped to near normal levels within 2 months. I began ovulating for the first time in my life after 3 months. I have perfect blood sugar levels after 6 weeks and haven't had a panic attack from day 5. Obviously as a panic attack is an adrenaline overdose induced by my sugars dropping too low, I am now excreting much less adrenaline than I was on the diet you described.

I know it sounds crazy. I did Atkins for 25 years and I did it right eating lots of nonstarchy vegetables. What I didn't eat were whole grains, fruits and starchy vegetables. I also took lots of supplements so as not to get malnourished. Your body doesn't care! It doesn't run that way. I am not against a lower carb diet; I am against a diet that doesn't feed you the 50 essential nutrients you need every day and keep you in hormonal balance. If your insulin started at 93, you are already very insulin resistant. You should have your thyroid and estradiol checked to see if they are contributing to your bad insulin. Yes, you want your insulin low but not TOO low. If you would read the books I've suggested you would understand what I mean. I cannot convince you by debating this with you. If you have not been doing Atkins for 25 years, then you probably do not realize the long term consequences. I admitted that Atkins makes things look better short term. If you are interested in health and not just weight loss, you will never find it that way. I have used the very things you stated as a defense for doing Atkins for nearly my whole life. They sound logical until you learn how the body really works and then they sound horrific. I predicted you would say everything you said as I used to say all those things myself. You can believe me or not, you can read the books or not, and you can learn from your own experience. If you think you are doing something good for yourself,
keep doing it. Everyone knows their own body better than anyone else. I just don't believe the Atkins propaganda anymore as it has not been my experience that anything good comes out of it long term.

Just wanted to put another perspective on things here

Could it be you are low in progesterone.

I was finding that my problems were more severe just before AF and if AF didn't come on time those days/weeks waiting for her to show up seemed to contain the severest symptoms - tingling scalp and hair loss; facial hair growth; wham back weight gain etc. and then I read some research which suggested PCOSers often do not have enough progesterone and that can be a cause of all of these symptoms.

I have just started taking natural progesterone cream so I can't tell you that it works or not yet but it's worth a thought??

There are reasons for the Atkin's levels.
And as I have read both of Swartzbeins's books, her healing plans are very similar to Atkin's maintence level with a little less fat and more emphasis on organics etc.

But, IMO anyone with a huge amount of weight to lose and who is very insulin resistant should start with a more restrictive level of carbs to bring those insulin levels at least into the normal ranges. Then and only then start to increase your carbs. Even if weight has not all been lost. It is vital to FIRST get those insulin levels within normal ranges. And the best way to do this is Atkin's first.


There's your sign!

Estradiol:

The principal estrogen produced by the ovary. Responsible for formation of the female secondary sex characteristics such as large breasts; supports the growth of the follicle and the development of the uterine lining. At midcycle the peak estrogen level triggers the release of the LH spike from the pituitary gland. The LH spike is necessary for the release of the ovum from the follicle. Fat cells in both obese men and women can also manufacture estrogen from androgens and interfere with fertility

Whilst a few PCOS women may be low in estrogen most are estrogen dominant. Too high estrogen levels is what causes the fast weight gain and unopposed estrogen causes insulin resistance causes weight gain and so the cycle goes.

A lot of women are progesterone deficient if they have PCOS.

Also there are herbs you can take for androgens which in turn can help with insulin resistance - Vitex plus Saw Palmetto are a good combination.

You might want to get your hormone levels checked just to see where you are at and what might help

Hello SweetT. Boy this got technical quick. More info than I can process without reading 2-3 times. I too suffer from pcos and severe insuline resistants. I do not want to debate with anyone about what plan I should be doing. I did my research and have made my own decision. I have experienced improvements from all side affects.
I wanted to welcome you to the board and wish you the best of luck. Do your research and use your own judjement as to what works best for you. I will agree the dosage is a little low. I look forward to seeing your posts.
Tammie

I have been reading the PCOS posts...in an attempt to figure out WHAT DIET will help make my symptoms go away...im torn between two...and they r opposites...low carb seems to make my symptoms WORSE...I did south beach...and it caused me to break out in even worse severe acne...and get my period 5 days eary!!! I figured out it was dairy breaking me out adn cut it out completley...and now period is back to normal...and i kind of follow the "eat to live" diet by dr. furhman...which IS MUCH MORE HEALTHY then all these low carbs...but i still cheat bc i have sugar addiction!! My acne is gone though...except scars..slowly healing...anyways the diet is basically eating a ton of greens and beans...some fruit is ok...but balance it w protein...he doesnt advocate high fat meat diets..saying it could cause insulin to become worse (he talks about diabets and why atkins is not good)...try reading book...so far its helped me...but i just need to quit sugar..

Also I found Food -combining to be The BEST for me... it takes a lot of time and planning.

Don't forget to EAT ORGANIC MEAT. Regular meat is packed with football player physique inducing (ie PCOS) hormones

Newdanfad, how has food combining helped you? Like what symptoms improved and how long did it take? Tell me more please im interested

I haven't been doing it much until really recently, but about 8 years ago i was doing it (when i could afford it). I got all the way down to a size 1-2 & 3-4 without trying hardly.

Protein + veggie & veggie + starch (whole grain or veggie starch (occasionally)) but not protein + starch. Fruit alone in the morning (i fudge on it) away from food about 1hr on either side...

I didn't have PCOS then. I think it still works but it's hard bcse it really revs up the metabolism and you have to keep eating to avoid low blood sugar.

oh geez that sucks i dont want my metabolism any faster...i wanted it to help my symptoms...i have to try to eat all the time to not lose so much weight since i started eating healthy...everyone keeps making comments that im eating all the time etc...but i have to and i keep losing weight...ive lost 8 lbs in three weeks and im already thin so now im 5'7 and 127. I was able to be 135 eating tons of junk all the time...meaning fast foods candies icecream...but it messed up my hormones so much...now im really paying the price...i just pray i find something to stop my symptoms from getting worse!!!

Don't let people fool you here, hair loss more often than not is because you are not getting enough protien. I had PCOS, still have PCOS, and I followed TSP as well as I could, now some people may need to drop the carbs lower, but the whole reason for TSP is to balance your hormones, that is not something that happens overnight, it can take awhile, a long while to do that. To produce good hormones you need a proper balance of protien and fats, because that is what makes hormones and doesn't waste what you are eating. but my guess is you need more fat and protien than what you get on the zone, because the zone is higher carb than what you may need. I have looked at the zone and it is good, but for PCOS it still maybe too high carb, and not enough protein and fat. I agree get a good doctor, that is what helpled me, he encouraged me to look for a LC program, put me on Glucophage and the pill, and now I'm expecting my 4th baby, this pregnancy and the last one are the only two pregnancies that I didn't have to do anything to help me get pregnant, when I have been infertile for years. I was doing TSP. Really find out why you are doing what you are doing and why.
Tanya