I appreciate your help and advice ... and it does sound like a plan to me!

Adequate dietary protein without supplementation really sounds great to me at this stage. (For active folks it's about 1 gram per lean body mass, right?)

To address the cardio issue, I'm currently using a recumbent exercycle for 30+ minutes after lifting. On non workout days, I do Walk Away The Pounds 3 Mile (it's a low impact walking aerobics program).

Now, I don't do either at the higher zone of cardiovascular exercise ... I stay at about 60% of max heart rate. This due to personal health issues and it's purported fat burning benefit. I don't feel overworked since I've been building on the cardio regularly for a year.

Now as for the recommendation to gain weight so endo women look more feminine, it's funny because I've been struggling with feeling less womanly as I lose weight! However it's a trade I'm willing to make.

Thanks again!

No. The "negative" effect of very low carb dieting is that your muscle glycogen levels are minimal. That means, in plain English, that you can't lift as much as you would be able to if you were fully carbed and glycogen loaded. If you can't lift as much, your muscles won't grow as fast. But they will still grow and you will still make progress. And the amount of weight you can lift makes very little difference to the neurological improvements (which are also an important part of making you stronger). The only time VLC diets are dangerous in the gym is if they give you a "bonking" effect and you happen to be under a very heavy weight, one that is near to failure for you. Then you run the risk of suddenly dropping a heavy barbell, which is a pretty dangerous situation especially if it happens to be a bench press. However, the keto bonking effect is NOT something beginning lifters have to worry about, and by the time it becomes a problem, you will know your body well enough to be able to work around it (pre workout carbs, exercise adjustment).

All that being said, if you think there is the slightest chance that you will drop any weight that is going over your face or over your head, then use a spotter.


I agree with Built here. If your diet is working, don't tweak it. I only started going to whey protein when I started lifting very heavy, and quite frankly I needed something that wasn't going to upset my stomach during a maximum effort. Solid food didn't work--whey protein fit the bill nicely.

Both Built and I have found that post-workout carbs, much recommended for muscle maintenance and growth, instead caused us to gain fat. So I'm off them too. Pre-WO carbs only, and that because I am going very heavy on the weights.


I'm an endo with all the fat loss problems to prove it. I don't believe that we should lift any differently than mesomorphs, especially at the beginning of a program--as long as we are willing to look a little fatter for a while, because for endos the muscle will go on long before the fat starts to come off, so new thigh muscle will poof out our legs for at least several weeks, and the scale may show considerably heavier. I think this is some of what panics many endo women when they start lifting..."oh my god I'm getting FATTER!"

Where we really do have to be careful is in our eating and cardio. Most strongly endomorphic people have at least some degree of carb sensitivity, and this means that the simple carbs + protein recommended for fast muscle gain will also pile the fat on us at an alarming rate. It can then be quite difficult to get off.

Endomorphs usually have to do cardio in order to show significant fat loss. The more strongly endomorphic we are, the more sad-but-true this is. Now, that is not to say that endos are the only body types which can get fat! But the endomorph is the body type which retains fat once it is gained, much more so than the other types. For someone who is more mesomorphic, the excess fat begins to drop off as soon as calories in/calories out are controlled, whether that is by means of exercise or eating. But endos who want to see a fat loss are likely to be frustrated if we rely on weights alone. Yes, the fat will come off, but at a very slow pace unless we incorporate enough cardio to boost the engine a bit but not overtrain us. I personally find that 30 minutes 4x/week is about the most I can do while also lifting twice a week as heavy as I can.

Emily

i agree with built that cardio works better (for fat loss) but it doesnt concern as much if you're already lean and very very fit. i think if im very lean like built or legwarmers then i will watch my cardio.

as for me i dont think im lean as yet! yes i can feel some muscles (arms, legs) but im not 'built' or 'hard' yet LOL. the fat in my body is still there, i can feel it and i dont think ive been progressing much thus i do cardio HIIT cuz i do think it works for me. i dropped so much bf% 30-21-16.5 and i did do lots of cardios.

now i lift heavy to build muscle, test my strenght - let the carbs help it a bit and stay on cardio to let burn more fat. hope this sounds okay....so far this is working for me and i am SO AGREE with not tweaking if its working (ive done it and paid my price but experimenting's always good experience).

it it aint broke dont fix it LOL

Okay 1.67 Endo/Meso combo, thats me. I do build muscle fairly easily, but do not loose fat easily! After reading the articles, my impression is that it doesnt help women to carb up because they dont carb up heavily enough to make a difference. I know thats way over simplified, but thats the impression I got. I am by no means a scientist, so please do explain what we, as women, should do. I can say this, I did a one meal carbup a couple of weeks ago on a Sunday, and all the next week, my workouts were much easier, and I had more endurance. So what do we do? (PS Im so glad this was started....you go Built!)

Here is something I found in Atkins For Life. Built you say this a lot and I figured for those doing Atkins this will aslo help them believe because Dr. A also says it:

"If you’re a woman, don’t be afraid that building muscle means you will “bulk up.” Although men can dramatically increase the size of their muscles on weight-training programs designed for that purpose, women generally cannot. With rare exceptions, most women simply lack sufficient quantities of testosterone, the male hormone necessary to achieve a “Mr. Universe” physique."

http://atkins.com/Archive/2002/8/16-647531.html

Oh, and I got a 2.3 ecto/meso body type.

I tried that test varying my answers several ways. It came up pure meso every time, which is what I had long suspected anyway.

Great post from good ol' Dr. A. there kiddo! Thanks!

Great post Emily - thank you for your input on this.

The cardio fat loss thing - I want to be clear. I DON'T think cardio is a great way to become lean. I think it's more helpful for us when we're fatter, though. My experience with it and my own body composition has been that the fatter I have been, the better it worked, and the leaner I am, the less-well it works, which actually seems counterintuitive, since one would think that a more muscular body is more inefficient, and hence, would burn off more calories doing cardio than a leaner person, but nothing like real-life experience to get in the way of a good theory.

Dazzlin, at 5'2" and 103 lbs, you fit into this notion of "cardio may not do as much as you think it should", to me anyway. And I'm not as lean as you think - my upper body is most certainly in the mid teens, but my lower body is in the mid 20s. Still, I'm finding that cardio is of limited benefit to me, composition wise.

Anti M - you'll get over it. And your programme for now sounds BANG ON to me.


Pook, my feeling is that since the carb load doesn't do as much for us as it does for men, we're probably better off with a TKD-style, pre-lifting carbs approach. This has certainly been born out in practice by several of us here. That, or NHE-style mini-carbups, where the fat spillover is less likely.

Now, I am NOT saying the longer carbups cannot be beneficial. Just that there seem to be more women than men who have fat-spillover problems from it. Some women do VERY well on CKD. And hey, I met a woman at my gym yesterday who lost 40 pounds slowly on Slim Fast milkshakes, doing cardio before weights, and keeping her fats and proteins really LOW . Just because I don't GET it doesn't mean it can't happen.

I'm an endomorph/meso too.

I go to Curves...I know this isn't like a REAL gym but it does incorporate resistance training as well as cardio at the same time.

I want to do this for awhile and then then move up to a full service gym after I have lost a little weight and feel a lil more comfortable with working out.

Is it true that the only way to boost my metabolism is to work out? I have the slowest metabolism in the world!!!!!

Are you getting stronger and working up a sweat? Yes? Then Curves is a real gym. Good job. And I think it's a GREAT way to get started. You'll know when it's time to go to the next stage.

I don't think there's any other way to increase your metabolism than to work with your body using diet and exercise - the RIGHT diet, and the RIGHT exercise.

See that's where I am at a loss....I still don't know what the RIGHT diet is for me....I lose so slow on just about everything including Atkins. I think my body goes into starvation mode and I just can't seem to eat enough protein and fat. I'm currently reading The Zone...I read The Schwarzbein Principle...I am doing Atkins now but with not too much success...

i came up as ecto/meso. i knew that.

built... i laughed at the article discussing carb ups because that would explain why i cannot do 3 carb ups. i do just fine with 2 though (bagels!).

legwarmers - I laughed and though of you when they suggested ecto women should try to gain some fat to appear more "feminine".

LOL yeah they can bite me!

Emily ~ Thanks for the great response! This thread has answered a lot of my lingering questions about weight training. I have experienced the 'bonk' - talking about weird, too, that it hits *bam* all of a sudden. I'm not in any danger, though, since I'm using cable machines (built in spotter).

And I do see cardio as 'boosting my engine' - I feel warmer all day, my circulation is improved ... I even have an easier time blood sugar testing hours later (I don't have to stick myself as hard, and the blood is right there, I don't have to 'milk' my finger!).

I hope it's okay with you ... I'm going to quote some of your post in an ongoing thread on in the TDC - and a link to the body type test. I am finding Calories In vs. Calories Out is almost meaningless for me. I'm wondering if some of the folks with the most success modifying their calories tend to be more mesomorph types?

Built ~ Thanks for the endorsement of my program - bang on! Loved that! And for that matter, I loved your little femme smiley!

MsTwacky ~ I don't know about a lot, but I do know this: No one can tell you what the exact right diet and exercise plans are for you. You've got to keep searching until you find a good combo for you. You mention Starvation Mode - do you have a long history of Very Low Calorie Dieting? Maybe you need to heal your metabolism by eating enough food and building up your lean body mass? Radical, I know, but maybe consider not trying to lose weight, just focusing on creating a healthy metabolism? I personally feel it's the people who stick with a program they can live with, even if their loss is very slow, who make it in the long run. There are a lot of folk (especially in the TDC) who skip from plan to plan in desperation, only to end up back here, weighing more and still more desperate. I wish you the best of luck.

Another question for the experts ... I need a terminology lesson! Walk Away the Pounds, the walking aerobics program I wrote about earlier, includes a section where you can choose to use 2 pound weights. When they're used, each move is made 30+ times. My neighbor refers to this as weight training, which I guess in a way it is. I've started using a term 'lifting heavy' to contrast that I'm doing far less repetitions and they're as heavy as I can possibly lift with good form.

But is this like saying I'm fat if I wear a size six? I don't want to claim a term that is inappropriate for me.

You can use either. I call it weight lifting or weight training. You can also call it resistance exercise.

If your neighbor is using the weight while doing cardio, he/she's incorporating some resistance into that program, but it's hardly weight lifting.

To me, heavy lifting means you're pushing as hard as you can, to failure. I'd just say you've started a weightlifting regime, and leave it at that. YOU know what it is. If the 30-rep neighbor thinks that's weightlifting, well - lets just watch YOUR progress, shall we?