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  #46   ^
Old Fri, May-28-04, 12:08
penelope_b's Avatar
penelope_b penelope_b is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 45
 
Plan: CKD - modified
Stats: 160/148/125 Female 68
BF:22%/20.6%/14%
Progress: 34%
Location: Monroe, Michigan
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OK...SLW...you recommended 200g over two meals before. You're saying I should change that now to 100g over two meals?
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  #47   ^
Old Fri, May-28-04, 12:20
jagbender's Avatar
jagbender jagbender is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,829
 
Plan: Atkins /NHE/CKD
Stats: 289/219/200 Male 5' 8"
BF:41%/20%/18%
Progress: 79%
Location: West Michigan
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Here is what Rob says:

The Significance of Ketosis for Fat Burning

ROB SAYS:

Dr. Atkins is credited with having popularized ketones, and the sticks you buy at the drug store, which when peed upon, turn purplish if ketones are present in the urine. Ketone testing has added a much needed element of suspenseful fascination to the otherwise boring and mundane urinary process. Nonetheless, the significance of ketosis for fat burning is overrated in general; and, specifically, it has limited relevance to the NHE Eating Plan.

The questions I get on this subject fall into two categories. 1) NHE practitioners who test negative; and, therefore, infer that they must be doing something wrong. 2) NHE practitioners who test positive; and, therefore, infer that they must be doing something wrong. Both of these groups are wrong in drawing this conclusion. (Logic suggests that there are two other groups of people who test either positive or negative; and, therefore infer that they are doing everything right. This conclusion, too, is unwarranted, but these folks are less motivated to inquire because they believe based on the results of the ketone test that they are succeeding rather than failing - which may or may not be the case.)

To those who fear ketosis because supposedly it is dangerous (and are not diabetic nor have any other metabolic condition): ketosis is neither the hazardous nor unhealthy condition that the high-carbohydrate folks insist on saying it is.

To those who fear ketosis because they believe that ketosis is a catabolic state: it's not. However, chronic low-carbohydrate consumption, which coincides with ketosis, precludes optimal anabolic hormonal enhancement (see p. 139 of NHE). The NHE Eating Plan is not a "chronic" but rather a "cyclical" low-carbohydrate diet, and it is designed to be more anabolic (and more lipolytic), calorie-for-calorie, than a chronic low or high carbohydrate diet.

To those who covet a grape-colored ketone stick, I have news for you as well:

Just because one IS NOT in ketosis does not mean that one IS NOT burning bodyfat; and just because one IS in ketosis does not mean one IS burning bodyfat.

So what does ketosis mean? The short answer is: that fat is being burned incompletely. The longer answer follows.

Ketones are partially burned fat fragments regularly produced by the liver from fatty acids. They then travel through the bloodstream where they are utilized for energy by most of the body's tissues, especially the heart which burns ketones preferentially. When one is in a fat-burning state and insulin is low, fatty acids are mobilized from adipose tissue in greater quantity. This along with a diet comprised of a higher fat/carb ratio makes more raw material available for the liver to produce ketones. However, it is not the greater mobilization so much as the impaired metabolization of fatty acids that causes ketones to accumulate, and consequently appear in the urine, stool, and breath (the three main avenues by which excess ketones are excreted from the body). By impaired metabolization, I don't mean that the body cannot get all the fatty acids/ketones it needs, but rather that it must break down more fat from food and adipose tissue than it needs (because some of it is literally leaking away). In other words, the fat-burning process becomes less efficient (which is actually good from the standpoint that some fat leaves the body without having to be burned). The reason it becomes less efficient is because, as the saying goes, "fat burns in the flame of carbohydrate."

More specifically, the rate-limiting factor for the burning of fatty acids in the Krebs cycle (which is the main process of cellular metabolism by which macronutrients are converted to energy) is oxaloacetate.

Oxaloacetate is formed from pyruvate which is generated when carbohydrate is broken down. When carbohydrate levels decrease, there is less oxaloacetate available, and thus fewer fatty acids can enter the Krebs cycle. Consequently, more fatty acids are transported to the liver where they are broken down to ketones, some of which are excreted in the urine, thereby causing your ketone stick to darken when you pee on it.

For non-diabetics, long before ketones in the blood rise to a dangerous level, insulin is called forth to exert its anti-lipolytic effect, halting the release of fatty acids from adipose tissue so that the ketones in the blood can be disposed of without more being produced. In a Type I diabetic, who has no anti-lipolytic insulin to counterbalance lipolytic glucagon, fatty acids rush from adipose tissue and food unchecked, and get converted by the liver into ketones at a rate that exceeds the body's energy needs and outstrips the body's capacity to get rid of them. Consequently, the blood level of ketones, which are acidic, escalates to toxic levels causing coma then death if not treated quickly. This is called diabetic ketoacidosis. Notice the word "diabetic"; if that doesn't describe you, "ketoacidosis" doesn't apply to you.

Bottom line: the only thing that a purple ketone stick signifies is that fat is being burned in a low-carb environment. Whether the fat burned derives from bodyfat or food (or a percentage from each) is not evident from the result of a ketone test. And just as the presence of ketones in the urine does not prove that bodyfat is being burned, the absence of ketones in the urine does not prove that bodyfat is not being burned.

One final note: the higher one's muscle/fat body composition ratio, the more difficult it is to turn a ketone stick purple.

http://www.extique.com/askrob0-1.htm#0-1-3-1
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  #48   ^
Old Fri, May-28-04, 12:37
legwarmers's Avatar
legwarmers legwarmers is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 353
 
Plan: NHE
Stats: 135/133/140 Female 64"
BF:15%
Progress: -40%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penelope_b
OK...SLW...you recommended 200g over two meals before. You're saying I should change that now to 100g over two meals?


i was giving you the guidelines that i was given. i defer to those who own the book...lol

and i meant i ate 80-100 per meal (just noting what i did, not being directive).

jag... i just read that this morning.... too funny! that section is full of good info!
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  #49   ^
Old Fri, May-28-04, 12:41
jagbender's Avatar
jagbender jagbender is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,829
 
Plan: Atkins /NHE/CKD
Stats: 289/219/200 Male 5' 8"
BF:41%/20%/18%
Progress: 79%
Location: West Michigan
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Hi ya leggs, have a good holiday!

jag
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  #50   ^
Old Fri, May-28-04, 12:44
penelope_b's Avatar
penelope_b penelope_b is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 45
 
Plan: CKD - modified
Stats: 160/148/125 Female 68
BF:22%/20.6%/14%
Progress: 34%
Location: Monroe, Michigan
Default ...

...i have the book :P

...but i'm perfectly willing to adjust my plan to 'what works' and i'm rather more your student since you've got RL experience to back up the book.

screw it...sticking with my two 100g meals until it proves to fail for me. thanks again! :-)
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  #51   ^
Old Fri, May-28-04, 12:48
legwarmers's Avatar
legwarmers legwarmers is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 353
 
Plan: NHE
Stats: 135/133/140 Female 64"
BF:15%
Progress: -40%
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np best of luck!
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  #52   ^
Old Fri, May-28-04, 16:01
Built's Avatar
Built Built is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 3,661
 
Plan: Metabolic Surge
Stats: 170/139/? Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Canada's Wet Coast
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Yup pen - it's working now, so don't mess with it.

And Jag - GREAT post. Thank you very much for that.
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  #53   ^
Old Fri, May-28-04, 23:53
Built's Avatar
Built Built is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 3,661
 
Plan: Metabolic Surge
Stats: 170/139/? Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Canada's Wet Coast
Default Pre and Post WO feedings on NHE

This part is really interesting: Rob Faigin says NO CARBS pre- or post- WO. He suggests protein and fat before, and MORE protein and fat AFTER lifting, but NO extra carbs outside of the twice-weekly refeeds.

I tried it today, and I liked it. I had suspected I was doing somethign sub-optimal WRT the feedings, but wasn't sure what.

Hmmmmm... we'll see.....
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  #54   ^
Old Mon, May-31-04, 14:56
penelope_b's Avatar
penelope_b penelope_b is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 45
 
Plan: CKD - modified
Stats: 160/148/125 Female 68
BF:22%/20.6%/14%
Progress: 34%
Location: Monroe, Michigan
Default

I'm doing a full on depletion workout today. Halfway through it and I want to puke. It must be working :P
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  #55   ^
Old Mon, May-31-04, 21:38
Built's Avatar
Built Built is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 3,661
 
Plan: Metabolic Surge
Stats: 170/139/? Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Canada's Wet Coast
Default

I'm only halfway through NHE - does he do depletion, or is this something you're borrowing from CKD?

Oh, and congratulations on wanting to puke

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  #56   ^
Old Tue, Jun-01-04, 04:27
penelope_b's Avatar
penelope_b penelope_b is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 45
 
Plan: CKD - modified
Stats: 160/148/125 Female 68
BF:22%/20.6%/14%
Progress: 34%
Location: Monroe, Michigan
Default

It's just a borrowed something. I wanted to get myself back into ketosis as fast as possible after my crappy weekend.
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  #57   ^
Old Tue, Jun-01-04, 06:05
red1cutie's Avatar
red1cutie red1cutie is offline
"Natural Mystic"
Posts: 5,905
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 178/108/120 Female 5' 1"
BF:45%/17%/15%
Progress: 121%
Location: T.O.
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Well I started NHE yesterday. I did legs, 20 minues of cardio after and some Abs too. I feel sore today.

Quote:
This part is really interesting: Rob Faigin says NO CARBS pre- or post- WO. He suggests protein and fat before, and MORE protein and fat AFTER lifting, but NO extra carbs outside of the twice-weekly refeeds.
I didn't know that but yesterday before my wotkout I had a protein shake (w/ 1/2 teaspoon L Glut) and then after my workout I had another shake(w/ 1/2 teaspoon L Glut). Next time I'll add some olive/coconut oil to it.

Quote:
but NO extra carbs outside of the twice-weekly refeeds.
What does that mean. Do you mean don't eat before or after workouts except if it's a carbup day and your carb up is after your workout?

BTW, Do y'all eat right after a cardio workout on days that you just do cardio. I want to do cardio today and I'm wondering if I should wait an hour after my cardio to eat or should I eat right away. Also does the no carbs after a workout apply to both weight, cardio days and just cardio days?

red
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  #58   ^
Old Tue, Jun-01-04, 08:00
penelope_b's Avatar
penelope_b penelope_b is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 45
 
Plan: CKD - modified
Stats: 160/148/125 Female 68
BF:22%/20.6%/14%
Progress: 34%
Location: Monroe, Michigan
Default

I always do my working out within about 1.5-2 hours of eating. And it usually makes me hungry enough that I eat again within 2 hours of completing it. I've never been one to starve myself post-workout though...if I'm hungry right away, I eat. If I'm not, I wait until I get hungry. It never seems to have adversely affected me.
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  #59   ^
Old Tue, Jun-01-04, 10:25
Built's Avatar
Built Built is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 3,661
 
Plan: Metabolic Surge
Stats: 170/139/? Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Canada's Wet Coast
Default

I agree with Pen.

But no extra carbs outside of refeeds, whether it's cardio or lifting.

I tend to keep my fats higher and carbs a little lower on non-lifting days, but it just seems to work out that way.
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  #60   ^
Old Tue, Jun-01-04, 16:29
w0rd's Avatar
w0rd w0rd is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 242
 
Plan: low fat -to- atkins
Stats: 180/124/110 Female 5'4-5'5"
BF:36%/18.2%/???
Progress: 80%
Location: nashville, tennessee
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im working on the nhe book but since my summer classes have started im kind of slacking.

question 1: when you arent carbing up, do you have to watch your fat intake or is it just like atkins??

question 2: when i buy whey protein.. should it be the kind that has 0 carbs?? there are soo many out there.. which ones do you guys/gals recommend?
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