interesting. i swear, though... i cannot sip if i feel parched...

Hi all - I've been reading.

Couple of things:
The main differences between the "bulking" and the "cutting" versions, from what I've read, are as follow:

For either version, begin with basic Atkin's - style induction for 7 days. Although Rob Faigin does not spell out the macronutrient proportions, I think it's safe to say this would probably work well on 65-70% cals from fat, 25-30% from protein, less than 20g usable carb per day.

In both cases, the "base" diet is low carb, unrestricted fat and calories, protein 15-50 grams per meal, with two staggered "carbups" per week. Carbups are the last one or two meals of the day, always AFTER working out (you can work out again the next day if you wish, 24 hours later). On carbup days, limit total pre-carbup carbs to <30g for that day. Eat at least every 4 hours.

For the "cutting" version, the daily carbs should be 30-60g, with no one meal having more than 25g of carb.

At least 4 meals a day.

And fats need not be ass-high.
Built's editorial: to me, this sounds like it need not be ketogenic during the fat-loss non-carbup days, because the fats are NOT required to be ass-high, and because many people would be knocked out of ketosis at 60g daily carbs, or with 25g of carb at a single meal.
ONLY A SINGLE CARBUP MEAL (which may be split, if desired, or eaten all at once): this should have minimum of 40g carb for females, 60g carb for males. Last meal of the day. <20g protein, <20g fat for this meal. Favour starchy carbs over sweet carbs, but as long as 70% is from starch, the rest from sugar is fine. In other words, I'm reading a large pancake with syrup here, or a toasted english muffin with butter and jam, or whole wheat or regular pasta with tomato sauce and parmesan, or yams with a bit of butter...

For the "bulking" version:
At least 5 meals a day
15-50g protein per meal
<30 g carb for the WHOLE DAY (not mentioned, but I supect "spread out" is better than all at once)
Keep fats high
Built's editorial: to me, this sounds like this is definitely ketogenic during the non-carbup days, because the fats ARE required to be ass-high, and because most people WOULD be able to stay in ketosis at <30g daily carbs

TWO CARBUP MEALS: EACH of these TWO meals should have minimum of 100g carb, and be the last two meals of the day.
ALL TOGETHER, for these last two meals, there should be <20g protein, <20g fat.

Again, favour starchy carbs over sweet carbs, but as long as 70% is from starch, the rest from sugar is fine. So if you wanted to have pasta with tomato sauce and some garlic bread, and a piece of cake afterward, this is fine. Just keep the total protein <20g and total fats <20g IN TOTAL for these two meals. You can spread it over the meals (10g each protein and fat for each of the two meals) or have the 20g each of protein and fat all at once - it doesn't seem to matter.

And you may be able to get away with higher fat as you progress through the plan - Rob Faigin suggests keeping the carb-loads low-fat in the beginning before experimenting with higher-fat carb loads.

Hmmm, so the bulking version seems MORE keto than the cutting version? *scratches head* I'm going to read that all again and let it sit. ATM, I'm doing LC BFL with two single carb meals spaced throughout the week instead of, as Built puts it, a 36 hr bender. My rationale is that I was bonking my cardio midweek and thinking the two mini-carb ups would preventthe bonk. Of course, I would actually have to be *doing* my cardio to tell.... *rolls eyes at self*

Oh, yeah - and I still lift on dextrose. It's only 35g, 20 g before and 15 after with protein. Haven't noticed spillover probs, and I'd say if I'm lifting on dextrose and still bonking midweek that the bod is probably using the carbs fairly well.

Cheers,

Friday

I believe it has to do with the insulin resistance that follows a period of keto dieting that stimulates the GH and test response for the bulking phase.

For the cutting phase, the generally low carbs keep insulin and glucagon primed for fat burning. The carb load meal is to refuel glycogen, and to prevent the decline in thyroid associated with dieting.

While these responses are true for BOTH versions of NHE, in the bulking phase, fat burning is sub-optimal to allow for optimal anabolic response, while in the cutting phase, the reverse is true.

nice info built!

It's a very interesting phenomenon that such a subtle change would shift the paradigm from optimizing fat loss to optimizing muscle gain. Makes me wish more and more that I had studied endocrinology.

Excellent post, Built. That cleared up a lot of things for me.



So, does your carb-up have to be immediately after working out, or could you work out in the morning that day? Do you have to wait a full 24 hours to work out after the carb-up, or could you work out the following morning? I prefer to do my work outs in the morning, especially on days I work. Is there a particular exercise plan you are supposed to follow, or is this strictly a diet plan?

Thanks!

Jen

As I understand it, and I WILL post a correction if I am wrong, you lift three times a week on this plan, and you carb up in the evening. You don't HAVE to lift the next day. So, say you lift Monday AM. Carb up in the PM, and train again Wednesday AM. Lift and carb again Friday. Carb ups should happen after lifting, on lifting days, but need not be the the meal IMMEDIATELY following lifting. For me, I lift in the evening. I have my pwo whey shake after lifting, then go home for my carb meal a few hours later.

I seem to be doing something that's about halfway between the two for my physical comfort. While I liked having two carbup meals, I guess I'd best cut it down to one since I'm interested in fat burning

i don't understand your rationale for that pen... unless you're going to have one giant load instead of two.

I think she is mis-interpreting the carb load thing...you can split the carb load for either plan Pen

I've been following all of the threads you guys have been writing on NHE and ordered the book yeasterday. It sounds intriguiging, especially since I've kind of hit a wall in the fat loss dept. I'm hopeful this will get me going again. As I've mentioned before I've done Atkins and more recently, CKD.

Built, you mentioned that you didn't think the non carb days were ketogenic. How do you feel about that--I mean it makes me a little nervous since ketosis is what I've been striving for for the last nine months?

I know Atkins won't support intense training, which is what I love. I actually gained a couple of pounds on CKD. I'm frustrated because I'm spending a lot of time experimenting and my weight is going nowhere. I'd love to hear your progress--have you guys been losing fat since starting NHE?

Ketosis isn't necessary for fat loss. What is necessary is that you don't have carb spillover into your fat stores. Ketosis kills your appetite, though.

Just to throw a wrench into things... and knowing that the ketostix can fluctuate wildly.... my ketosis almost always tests *higher* at 60-100 net carbs than at 20-40. Am told this is likely because at 40 or less, I'm burning them all, but it's interesting to me that I was in deep ketosis on the standard BFL diet (40% p/40%c/20%f).

Cheers,

Friday

That's INTERESTING! Still, though, the big deal here isn't ketosis, per se, but the cycling of macronutrients, in particular for the mass-building phase.