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  #1261   ^
Old Fri, Aug-09-19, 00:53
s93uv3h s93uv3h is offline
Posts: 1,290
 
Plan: Atkins & IF / TRE
Stats: 000/014.5/015 Male 5' 10"
BF:
Progress: 97%
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To me, definitions don't really make a difference. I use them as goals - a 16/8, a 24 aka omad, a 36 or 48 hour fast. The first I can do all week. The omad I will mix in throughout the week. And the 36 or 48 a few times a month.
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  #1262   ^
Old Fri, Aug-09-19, 10:04
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 12,121
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 255/214/153 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 40%
Location: Massachusetts
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That progression seems to be the most effective....the easiest to get to 36 and 48 hrs. How did you decide on 36 and 24 hrs??
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  #1263   ^
Old Fri, Aug-09-19, 13:12
s93uv3h s93uv3h is offline
Posts: 1,290
 
Plan: Atkins & IF / TRE
Stats: 000/014.5/015 Male 5' 10"
BF:
Progress: 97%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ms Arielle
That progression seems to be the most effective....the easiest to get to 36 and 48 hrs. How did you decide on 36 and 24 hrs??
just what i worked up to / ended up doing. They're ballpark numbers, plus or minus either way. it gets to be a psychological thing when you're nearing your goal. so set your goal long and if / when you cut it short you're still good lol.
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  #1264   ^
Old Fri, Aug-09-19, 19:07
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 12,121
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 255/214/153 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 40%
Location: Massachusetts
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Good thinking!!! Im sure just getting to 36 hrs will be a feat....for me.
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  #1265   ^
Old Fri, Aug-09-19, 19:12
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 12,121
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 255/214/153 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 40%
Location: Massachusetts
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Does dr fung ever talk about kidneys and kidney health?
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  #1266   ^
Old Fri, Aug-09-19, 20:29
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 12,121
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 255/214/153 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 40%
Location: Massachusetts
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Found a couple podcasts re dr fung talking about kidney disease......and full blown kidney disease is not reversable, and its found not just in diabetics but also at the pre-diabetes level.

Why is this subject ignored....... how did I miss this on this forum??

Last edited by Ms Arielle : Sat, Aug-10-19 at 13:38.
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  #1267   ^
Old Sat, Aug-10-19, 10:57
CityGirl8 CityGirl8 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 856
 
Plan: Protein Power, IF
Stats: 238/204/145 Female 5'8"
BF:53.75%/46.6%/25%
Progress: 37%
Location: PNW
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GRB5111
If anyone knows of a clear statement as to when autophagy starts in humans in the absence of food, I'd be interested. As stated in the D'Agostino blog post, it would be nice to know how long it takes to benefit from optimal autophagy. I would be able to determine the necessary duration of an IF for maximum benefit.
I thought you might be interested in this talk from Dr. Nadir Ali on autophagy at the recent Ketofest. His talk starts at 47:00 and he's got a couple of slides on "when does autophagy start" at about 1:12:40.

In short, he's saying that it depends on a number of factors. If you are older, obese, sedentary, and eat a SAD diet it might take two to three days. If you are younger, leaner, more active, have good cholesterol, and eat a LCHF diet, then it might take 24 hours. You might need EF if you have severe health concerns to address like Alzheimer's, inflammation and high blood pressure, and severe insulin resistance.

He does mention a mouse study as well as some results from exercise related studies on autophagy in humans.

I still don't think it really answers your question definitively with a specific scientific study or two in humans, though.
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  #1268   ^
Old Sat, Aug-10-19, 12:26
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 3,107
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CityGirl8
I thought you might be interested in this talk from Dr. Nadir Ali on autophagy at the recent Ketofest. His talk starts at 47:00 and he's got a couple of slides on "when does autophagy start" at about 1:12:40.

In short, he's saying that it depends on a number of factors. If you are older, obese, sedentary, and eat a SAD diet it might take two to three days. If you are younger, leaner, more active, have good cholesterol, and eat a LCHF diet, then it might take 24 hours. You might need EF if you have severe health concerns to address like Alzheimer's, inflammation and high blood pressure, and severe insulin resistance.

He does mention a mouse study as well as some results from exercise related studies on autophagy in humans.

I still don't think it really answers your question definitively with a specific scientific study or two in humans, though.

Thanks, CG8. This is plausible and is consistent with Fung's observation. I agree that those who are low or very low carb likely experience autophagy sooner, and that it's a rising curve given the duration of a fast and the WOE of the one fasting. Yes, specific research will be enlightening, as most of what we have currently is anecdotal. I believe autophagy starts for me anywhere from 16-20 hours from the my last meal or when my glycogen stores are depleted. I know when I've done multi-day IFs, I no longer have any hunger after the 2nd day, and I'm also likely in full blown autophagy by that time. Be great to have confirming human research.
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  #1269   ^
Old Sun, Aug-11-19, 14:29
deirdra's Avatar
deirdra deirdra is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,002
 
Plan: HF/vLC/GF,CF,SF
Stats: 197/136/150 Female 66 inches
BF:
Progress: 130%
Location: Alberta
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What bothers me is that many granting agencies believe fasting is bad and won't fund studies on fasts longer than 16 hrs. Instead, researchers are coming up with "fast-mimicking" diets that are really just low-calorie diets with mini-meals/snacks throughout the day for 8-16 hrs. Even if very low carb, they will not simulate true fasts as they keep insulin pumping and growth hormone suppressed, making it impossible to get data on true fasts and autophagy.
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  #1270   ^
Old Sun, Aug-11-19, 16:08
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 12,121
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 255/214/153 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 40%
Location: Massachusetts
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Maybe Fung could raise the funds for a trial, or Diet Doctors.

The first battle apparently was to put to rest the "calorie is a calorie" theory. That study is done, just needs publishing...so it can be ripped apart, of course.

Im throwing my hat in with Fung after MUCH reading, hours of audio in terviews.......fasting is a normal process that we have viewed as starvation and three squares a day has become the mantra.

Pondering why rotties get cancer and pointers dont led me to IF in humans. I do think my rotties lived very long lives is because I didnt let them get fat, and they did a 48hr fast about once a week on the advicr of a trusted rottie owner. Pointers run and run, keeping weight on them is a challenge, but they too do 48 hr fasts ocassionally.

Fasting makess sense.
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  #1271   ^
Old Mon, Aug-12-19, 04:11
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 3,107
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deirdra
What bothers me is that many granting agencies believe fasting is bad and won't fund studies on fasts longer than 16 hrs. Instead, researchers are coming up with "fast-mimicking" diets that are really just low-calorie diets with mini-meals/snacks throughout the day for 8-16 hrs. Even if very low carb, they will not simulate true fasts as they keep insulin pumping and growth hormone suppressed, making it impossible to get data on true fasts and autophagy.

Well stated. This is exactly my concern about the "fast-mimicking" diet. Considering the positive health responses to a fast, why go to calorie deprivation and call it the same thing? Eating controlled, small portions may have some similarities with fasting, but would be torture for me. A simple approach is my preference.
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  #1272   ^
Old Mon, Aug-12-19, 08:05
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 13,740
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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Maybe because it might actually be the same thing? I'm not talking about constant, long term low calorie eating here. But intermittently eating lower calorie really is different from constantly eating lower calorie. What is it about fasting that (hopefully) prevents adaptation to lower calories, slowing of the metabolism? Arguably it's likely to be the higher calorie eating in between the fasting, and not the fasting itself. People talk about fasting not lowering the metabolism--this is true in studies where the fast itself is 24 hours, at most 48. When Cahill fasted young divinity students for a week, their metabolic rate went down to 1100 calories a day. Young guys in their twenties, their basal metabolic rates should have been at least 1600 calories a day, probably a bit more--that makes the reduction in metabolic rate at least comparable to what happened in the Minnesota (semi-) Starvation study. More recently we have the Matador study--that had a protocol with a couple weeks of lower calorie, a couple weeks of regular eating--and the result was a maintenance of metabolic rate. Short term fasting might not lower metabolic rate--but neither does short term calorie restriction.

Now, of course it's still different from just fasting, and that's something I want to see studied more. But I also want to see what Longo's up to, and more stuff like the Matador study as well. Showing the ins and outs of all this stuff, and benefits of various fasting versus various lower calorie protocols is going to need a comprehensive look at all these different approaches.
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  #1273   ^
Old Mon, Aug-12-19, 10:33
CityGirl8 CityGirl8 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 856
 
Plan: Protein Power, IF
Stats: 238/204/145 Female 5'8"
BF:53.75%/46.6%/25%
Progress: 37%
Location: PNW
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by deirdra
What bothers me is that many granting agencies believe fasting is bad and won't fund studies on fasts longer than 16 hrs. Instead, researchers are coming up with "fast-mimicking" diets that are really just low-calorie diets with mini-meals/snacks throughout the day for 8-16 hrs. Even if very low carb, they will not simulate true fasts as they keep insulin pumping and growth hormone suppressed, making it impossible to get data on true fasts and autophagy.
But the results of fasting-mimicking diets have been very similar to what they would expect from full fasting. They are getting excellent results for conditions where they are aiming for good rates of autophagy like cancer, PCOS, PCKS, etc.

While I would like to see some good studies of full fasting in humans, I also don't think we should be so dismissive of fasting-mimicking diets or jump to conclusions about autophagy having an on-off switch. All the "if you so much as lick a spoon while you're cooking, you'll stop autophagy cold" is apparently not true. And is apparently very far from true if you can still increase autophagy on a fasting-mimicking diet.

I know we don't have the studies, even in mice, to prove anything. But those kinds of results suggest to me that if you want weight loss, insulin very low or autophagy, you may be fine with a fasting-mimicking diet. If you want zero insulin and growth hormone increased, maybe not.
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  #1274   ^
Old Mon, Aug-12-19, 10:34
bluesinger's Avatar
bluesinger bluesinger is offline
Posts: 4,163
 
Plan: Atkins 72~Induction
Stats: 170/140/140 Female 62 inches
BF:24%
Progress: 100%
Location: Nevada Desert, USA
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I looked back through my calendar to my last fast, 6 days in May 2019.

Looking back on my J from those days is enlightening to me.

Anyway, the difference in my body between calorie restriction while eating LC and Fasting always shows more in my loss of belly fat than on the scale. Guess that's because I'm in maintenance. During that Fast my blood ketones were very high.

I'm also interested in autophagy because of my advanced age, but can see no visual changes in my skin, hair, nails or anything else on the outside of my body. (That is, other than the near-constant acceleration in deterioration which, sadly, will not change.)
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  #1275   ^
Old Mon, Aug-12-19, 11:43
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 12,121
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 255/214/153 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 40%
Location: Massachusetts
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Glenda, one point of interest to me rrguarding fasting is bumping up the growth hormone. Im new to fasting but there seems to be little on how to use fasting, lengths and how often.

I can only draw rough conclusions from a story dr fung told of a t2d at the point of loosing his foot due a sore that would not heal. Patient fasted 7 days, then 36 h fasts over the next two weeks. Voila, sore healed.
Your program maybe more effective than you think....

Last edited by Ms Arielle : Mon, Aug-12-19 at 12:24.
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