So I've never been a good sleeper, but low carb seems to really exacerbate my insomnia issues. The first two weeks on 50-60 grams, I would only sleep for 2-4 hours at a time, and spent a good part of the night trying to get to sleep again. On top of feeling wired, and having a hard time getting to sleep.

So I added back carbs to the evening meal, which cured that problem pretty quickly, but is a slow way to lose weight. Over the next few weeks I cranked down the carbs and seemed to be doing okay, thought I had the insomnia problem licked! But it came back again. Sleeping pills were only giving me 4-5 hours of sleep, and I can't keep on with them (been through dependence and it is no fun).

The last time I tried melatonin it was a disaster--took 5 mg extended release, slept maybe two awful hours, and had panic attacks. This happened 2 nights in a row (guess I'm a slow learner!). It took me a year and a half to get desperate and nervy enough to try it again. This time I took 1 mg for two nights in a row. It still hit me like a hammer, and I was very groggy the next day, but I slept.

But the past week I have had fantastic sleep! (without any help!)---most nights straight through, very deep and restful. This is extremely unusual for me, on any diet or sleep aid. I had so much energy earlier today, I felt like a popcorn popper--is this what normal people feel like? My working theory is that my cortisol levels were through the roof, and the melatonin has knocked them way down. So I'm very hopeful that I've found a way to deal with my insomnia issues.

If anyone here is a long-term melatonin user, I'd like to hear their experience. I'm also very interested in using Montmorency cherry (a natural source). Another supplement of interest to me is Seriphos, but I'm having a hard time finding much info on this. Also GABA--as the benzos I've used for so long apparently increase GABA.

I really think that lowish carb is a much healthier diet for me, and I want to stick with this WOE, but I have to get my sleep issues ironed out if I want to continue with this.

I did read not too long ago that no one should take more than 3 mg.
I do take it from time to time and recently ran out of the 3mg so I've taken 5mg and did OK.
It doesn't knock me out but just lets me Stop thinking so I can sleep.

I just wanted to update so that if anyone is looking for answers (like me!) they might get some ideas of where to start.

I've been experimenting with melatonin, and I think the answer is going to be a very low dose supplement, probably Montmorency cherry juice concentrate. I currently have the dried cherries, but they have a ton of sugar in them, so haven't taken the recommended amount (1/4 cup). OTC melatonin seems to come in 1mg doses, and 1/2 a pill (.5 mg) is still much too strong for me. The pattern seems to be that I sleep poorly the first night after taking .5 mg, but sleep fantastic for the next several days until the dose wears off. But still a bit groggy during the day.

The other thing I have done is wean myself completely off of the amitryptililine (Elavil), that I have been on (12-25mg) for the last 15 plus years! I think it was causing heart palpitations and actually increasing my insomnia problems at this point. After a few days of severe digestive upset and a few other withdrawal symptoms, I seem to be doing much better. I'm pretty excited about actually getting off the stuff, and it certainly did not help the weight battle. My IBS (also treated with Elavil) is doing much better on a very low grain/low carb diet.

I'm going to research the connection between insomnia and a low carb diet. I believe I read somewhere that a ketogenic diet increases cortisol, which could certainly cause sleep issues. I'll post more when I know more about the connection, and possible ways to decrease cortisol (such as melatonin).

Here have been a number of threads on this forum about insominia when in ketosis over the years, many ideas offered, including having some carbs in the evening, magnesium, etc.

http://forum.lowcarber.org/archive/...p/t-406151.html
http://forum.lowcarber.org/archive/...p/t-451420.html
http://forum.lowcarber.org/archive/...p/t-439700.html
http://forum.lowcarber.org/archive/...p/t-432611.html

Put insomnia in advanced search to find many more.


Trader Joe's has a chewable 1/2 mg. that works well for me. Usually have no problem going to sleep, but wake up after 4 hours. Pop it in mouth, go back to sleep easier.

I recommend Lights Out: Sugar, Sleep, and Survival. That helped me understand hormone cascades and also neurotransmitters with respect to carbs in the diet.

Insomnia is a major problem for me too on low carb. A couple things I've done is, if I'm on the computer in the evening -- and sometimes I just can't resist -- use the Flux program https://justgetflux.com/ to filter out blue light. I use these amber glasses too: http://www.amazon.com/Uvex-S1933X-E...g/dp/B000USRG90

I found this to be an interesting article:

GABA and Serotonin Deficiency: The Brain Quiz

http://primaldocs.com/opinion/gaba-...the-brain-quiz/

I'm going to try that Passion Flower Glycerite the next time I order supplements. http://www.vitacost.com/eclectic-in...-flower-2-fl-oz

Funny you should say that, I just downloaded the program before you posted. I like it so far. I've also been checking out the light-blocking glasses, and looking into a light bulb that doesn't emit the blue rays.

Janet--I've gotten some good leads from googling this forum. That is how I first learned about magnesium, and also Seriphos (though that seems to be a dead end for me).

I did look up some info on the book, sounds interesting, but apparently poorly written. I'll have to find it at a library somewhere and take a look at it in person. Having a biochemistry background, I am fascinated by all this.

Dr. Eades once suggested saving your carbs to have just before bed time. I take half a antihistamine.

I sleep much more lightly on VLC, but I've gotten used to it. I have some herbal teas that help, my favorite is linden flower, it works quickly.

But my dream life on VLC is almost nonexistent, I don't know why. I used to have interesting technicolor dreams and now, zip.

For a while I was having something with more carbs before bedtime, like a baked potato or some chocolate -- and it would always lead to a night of more dreaming. Something about carbs on the brain and dreams, I wonder what it is?

But I don't want to do that now, I've adapted to a very-low-carb routine with deep ketosis and resumed weight loss.

In my experience dreams track with rise and fall of insulin and serotonin, from carbs.
I think dreams come with a sine wave of insulin/serotonin.

If I had very low carb and moderate protein, insulin is always always low, serotonin never rises, and no dreams.

If I have a wad of carbs at dinner, insulin and serotonin rise, and I get good dreams. then they fall again in my 14 hour overnight fast.

In the really bad old days, insulin was high all the time, serotonin too, and dreams went away again.

There's more about neurotransmitters, hormones, and carbs in "Lights Out: Sugar, Sleep, and Survival."

I just wanted to post an update on my sleeping issues, and what is working/not working at this point, in the hopes that it might be helpful information for others with sleeping issues, as insomnia can be hell.

Melatonin supplements proved to be a bust, and in fact put me into a bad "sleep hole" for a few days that I had to climb out of. Once I understood how natural melatonin is produced in the body (very tiny amounts, continuously over many hours) I saw that I was trying to make changes in a very delicate, fine-tuned system with a sledgehammer. Obviously melatonin is part of the equation, but I had to figure out another way to harness it.

I gave up on the attempt to wean off of amitryptiline, and am currently on a dose of 6 mg per night. In the future, I will need to taper off of it very slowly, as I have been on it so long.

So I've been working on ways to enhance the natural melatonin production in my body, and conversely cut back on cortisol production at inappropriate times. For the last five days I've been using "blue blocker" goggles for the two hours before bedtime (8-10 pm). I have to say so far, I am quite pleased with the results. I'm sure it is a conditioned response at this point, but as soon as I put them on, I feel very relaxed, on the edge of drowsy. I fall asleep almost immediately when my head hits the pillow, and my sleep is getting progressively better. Only a couple of wake-ups, I fall back to sleep quickly, and overall sleep time is more (8 to 8 1/2 hours?). Since I am using very obtrusive ski goggles at this point, I have to hide from the world, and it will be great to get my sunglasses soon. I've also installed f.lux on my computer, and replaced my bedroom light with a non blue-light emitting bulb.

On the advice of a naturopathic pharmacist, I increased my progesterone cream from about 5mg to 10 mg (still a very tiny amount). I'm feeling remarkably calm and an overall sense of well-being ("happy" seems too trite a word). She also suggested lavender oil as a replacement for my beloved benzodiazephine, and I'm glad to report that it does seem to give a remarkably benzo-like reduction in anxiety level, though it is very mild. Currently I don't need it, but having that as a back up, rather than the benzo, would be great.

As far as diet, I haven't changed much. Still at a moderate carb level of about 50g/day. Breakfast and lunch are usually quite low carb, dinner is where the carbs are at. I also skip breakfast about twice a week. I'm not sure at this point if I want to attempt decreasing carbs further--probably not. First off would be removing grains completely (though I eat very little now), and removing problematic dairy products, in order to lose weight. I'm just starting to research dietary ways to support melatonin production.

I remember more dreams when I'm towards the ketogenic end of things.

It may just be coincidence, but when I added an evening walk to my daily routine, I started sleeping better. For the first few months of this WOE, I didn't sleep great -- but it was OK. Then one day, I just could not shut my brain down at night. I'd lay there wide awake for hours and if I was lucky, I'd catch a few hours of sleep just before dawn. Sometimes I didn't sleep at all. I also noticed that I'd get fidgety during the day if I sat around too long -- highly unusual for someone who is still 380 pounds! I felt like I had energy to burn and needed to get up and use it. So it was then that I started walking and it became a habit very quickly. That was in late May 2014. The insomnia stopped and I started sleeping better and deeper than I've ever slept. My sleeping pattern changed to that of a 'morning person' for the first time ever. My system kind of synced up with the sunrise and I was fully awake and ready to go at daybreak. I've been that way ever since. I like it - but I still find it very strange. The first 50 years of my life I was a stay up late and sleep in on weekends type of guy. This morning person guy I've become still kinda freaks me out. The change was so sudden. Again - I don't know if the walking routine helped with the sleeping problems or if my 'need to get out and move' just coincidentally started at the same time my insomnia ended. But that is what happened - so I thought I'd put it here as a possible solution.

BTW: I walk just about every day and try to get in at least 2 miles. I've kind of become addicted to it and often get 3 or 4 miles in.

While I have always been a morning person and walk early in the day (getting sun near dawn supposedly helps set circadian rhythm), Dr Ron Rosedale is a proponent of the "take at least a 20 minute walk AFTER dinner" plan and it has certainly worked for you. His reason is more to burn the glucose from dinner (even veggies provide some) and reset the leptin hormone, adjust hunger and metabolism, but I can see those then helping sleep. Interesting.

I am actually experiencing some sleep disturbance lately, although eating keto has improved my sleep in the past. In one way, my sleep is extremely regular, I pretty much pass out at ten pm whether I want to or not. But I keep waking up at 3 or 4 to pee, and also because I'm thirsty, and sometimes I'll have trouble getting back to sleep after that. A catheter and a water-drip, and my troubles would be gone.