I have a question for all of you (well, those of you who are following a CKD) - Why? Why not just go with a "TKD". I feel that this would promote a greater amount of fat-loss as more time is spent in ketosis. Also, you don't have to bother with those stupid carb-up's. Yes, they are fun...but, they can spin out of control and you have to worry about fat spilling over etc. etc. etc. Hell, diets aren't suppose to be fun. I will admit that I am pretty anti-CKD and pro TKD...at this point. I will also confess that when I did attempt a CKD I almost always f**ked up while carbing up (I ate way too many carbs...and fat...it ended up looking like a cheat day). I just can't figure out why the TKD is not as popular as the CKD. Is it because it doesn't offer the freedom of the CKD, (i.e. the carb up's on the weekend) while the TKD is limited to just pre-workout carbs? Or, is it because you are stronger on a CKD? I can tell you that those pre-workout carbs don't do S**T. However, I'm not in this for strength ...I just want to get ripped (don't we all). Well, that's my 2...maybe 3 cents.

Good question.
For myself, I use fitday to track calories and ratios so I guess I am not too concerned about going over the fat/crab ratios on carb day.
I just had my first carb fest and I only did 24 hours. On Sunday, I went for my fastes 2 mile run ever. Was it cuz of the carb up or my motivation or? Maybe all of it.

Is it possible to have feet in both camps? For example, I am only going to carb up every 10-14 days. The remaining in ketosis.

My goal is to lose fat, see pictures:
http://community.webshots.com/user/chantel143

The TKD diet probably isn't as popular because there is no carb up days and I would think most people like that "break". -

I did 1 Body for Life challenge and at around week 8 or so, I stopped taking a free day because like you once mentioned, it set me back. I felt more in control without it but then my carbs were from 35-75 grams so maybe that had something to do with my energy.

After you posted what the TKD plan was, I tried to imagine myself doing it and my only apprehension is "could" I do it? I mean what if I wanted to have a piece of birthday cake for an occassion? Would this plan be too ambitious for me? I hate to fail in other words and tried to realistically see myself do this for 12 weeks or so. But on another note, I may be cutting myself short on this. I mean, you are right, dieting is not supposed to be fun and if fat loss is my goal, maybe the CKD is setting me back.

More food for thought.

So, you do not carb up but prior to working out (weights only) you pop a mouth full of sweet tarts? What about coffee? Wouldn't a cup of strong black coffee do the same thing?

I hope more people answer this- it is an interesting topic.

-My concern with the carb-up doesn't concern getting the right amount of carbohydrates and fat. I know the ratio's, it's just that once I get my hands on some carb's ...all hell breaks loose. This is just the case for me personally; if you can stick to the proper ratio's more power to you. Anyways, I'm betting that those extra carbohydrates helped energize you for that 2 mile run.



-This would definitely hasten fat-loss on a CKD. The idea of doing the carb-up on the weekend is to fit it (the carb-up) into the typical work-week. If you can schedule your CKD wherein you carb-up every 10-14 days- by all means do it!



-Agreed.



-Don't get me wrong...the CKD is a good diet. Wouldn't you much rather stick to a diet which you can adhere to- rather than following a strict diet (like a TKD) for a few weeks and just giving up completely because it's too demanding? If you think you "have what it takes" to perform a TKD, do it. BUT, if you think that the CKD is more realistic and you KNOW you'll be able to stick with it- stick with it.



-You must understand that the idea of taking in pre-workout carbohydrates is not necessarily based on improving performance (which it does for some; it's only a "bonus"). Carbohydrates allow better muscle fiber recruitment- in turn preventing fatigue. The main goal of pre-workout carbohydrates is to promote post-workout glycogen synthesis while only interrupting ketosis for a short period of time.

((-You must understand that the idea of taking in pre-workout carbohydrates is not necessarily based on improving performance (which it does for some; it's only a "bonus"). Carbohydrates allow better muscle fiber recruitment- in turn preventing fatigue. The main goal of pre-workout carbohydrates is to promote post-workout glycogen synthesis while only interrupting ketosis for a short period of time.))

Zeus,
I see. I did not understand that. I get it now.

Is this your first go around with the TKD? If not, what were your results on it before?

I wonder also if you know if an occassional Diet Coke or Diet Rite would cause a person to get kicked out of ketosis?
I guess this is a personal thing, right? Each body responds differant?

Finally, if I do weights in the am and then do a cardio session right after, do I wait an hour for a protien shake or do I get one in as soon as I finish the cardio? I am still ccnfused on the importance of eating what, when. I suppose it is all a timing issue to get feed the muscles and not lose muscle.

Any thoughts?

tia

I use a CKD because it works for me.

If it ain't broke, then don't try to fix it.

But then again, I am pretty much anti-TKD, but to each his own.

I like the idea of supercompensation on the weekends, which the TKD lacks, since total depletion never truly occurs. I feel my muscles get fuller when I carb-up.

When one looks at the design of the CKD, in its true form, yoi will see that it is very specific and very regimented as to what you have to do each day -- workouts and nutrition.

If you think a CKD is easy, you aren't doing it by the book. It is one of the most structured and "un-fun" diets around.

But, it is the most effective diet I have ever been on.

In my opinion, it is the perfect fat loss/muscle sparing plan available.

Fat loss is pushed ahead at light speed. Strength is maintained due to the Monday workout when glycogen is high. Due to the keto diet, muscle is spared due to the high protein/fat intake. Hormone levels are optimized.

Due to the lengthy carb-up, T3 levels are never compromised. the muscles store more glycogen in response to depletion, which in turn enables you to push harder come Monday -- hence, improved performance.

Anyway, THAT is why I do a CKD.

-This is my first time using the "TKD" for an extended period of time. I tinkered with it for 4 weeks and very much liked the results.



-You're right- each body does respond differently. However, Diet Rite is sweetened with "Splenda" whereas Diet Coke is sweetened with "Aspartame" (which, I think, has a better chance of kicking you out of ketosis). If you decide to have an occasional soda- go with Diet Rite.



-I do the exact same thing as you (weights in the a.m., followed by a session of cardio right after). I have also wondered if I should wait or immediately consume a protein shake. However, since fat-loss is our goal...I'd wait an hour [if someone else could elaborate on this, please do- I could be wrong here].

I started CKD this week to try and break out of a 2 month stall and to improve my workouts.

I had a great workout last night and was able to do an extra set on all of my routines.

Although I gained 8lbs during carb-up, today I lost 3lbs. If I can continue the loss and get down to 10lb loss by Friday then I will continue with CKD.


Bill

Good luck on the CKD, keep us posted too.

I gained 2 pounds on my carb up but I only carbed up 24 hours.
I lost those 2 plus 2 more. I have a lot of fat to lose so I hope this works. I feel great on it.

I am glad you posted that question, Zeus, because I often wonder the same thing myself. I have been seriously thinking about the CKD for a while, but am afraid of losing control on the carb up. Right now I am following a not completely strict TKD and actually enjoying the way I eat. Whenever I bring too many carbs into the picture I lose any and every sense of moderation and end up eating everything.

I am somehow afraid that the carbs will prevent me from losing fat, despite everything I've read from people who know a) know WAY more than I will ever know about this and b) are successful using this diet.

Since you have been following a TKD, can you tell me, are you super strict except immediately before or after a workout? What kind of carb plan do you follow and what have the results been for you?

I've seen good results in muscle growth with my TKD but unfortunately minimal fat loss. Maybe CKD is the way to go?
But then I generally consume small amounts of carbs throughout the whole day, with a concentration before the workout, rather than zero carbs all day, and a concentration before the workout.

Meg

-I follow the TKD in a very strict manner. The only time I ingest carbohydrates is specifically before training (5 rolls of 'Sweet Tarts'). Other than that- my diet looks similiar to that of the 'Atkins Diet' or any other SKD (Standard Ketogenic Diet). The results so far have been promising ...however, I do not notice an increase in muscle mass nor do I expect it. If you want to see what I eat in a typical day- head on over to the '$ for Zeus' thread and check it out for yourself.



-The minimal fat-loss is due to the fact you consume small amounts of carbohydrates throughout the day. I would atleast give the TKD a fair try before you say you're not getting productive results in terms of fat-loss. You need to cut out all carbohydrates and only ingest them before working out. Also, if you're more concerned with building muscle than losing fat- you shouldn't be following any type of ketogenic diet. It may be possible to put on a few pounds of muscle mass while on a CKD/TKD...but it is very unlikely. The purpose of these diets is to maintain muscle mass (not increase it) while stripping away body-fat.

This is true. This time around on the CKD, I have lost 15.3 lbs of fat and gained 1.3 lbs. lean mass ... All in all a success, and I am not done yet. I am running a CKD until the end of August.

Since last year at this time (following a bulk-and-cut), I have added 17.3 lbs. lean mass, and lost 5 lbs. of fat. So, I have become bigger and leaner .... again, when the final results are in at the end of August I wil have a clearer picture.

But what Zeus said is on the mark. Any ketogenic diet is a way for you to maintain muscle mass while stripping away fat.

To build, you will need to take in a slight excess of calories. Your body will need the raw materials to build muscle, right? It can't build anything if you are eating at or just below maintenance.

-Very impressive. I think I read somewhere (on a different forum) that you were going to compete in the near future? If so, how is the contest preparation going...or, when are you going to start preparing for it? You can just disregard this post if I'm mistaken.

You read right.

I am planning to compete next summer, in later summer/fall.

There is one this summer, but I don't feel I am muscular enough yet to pull it off, even though it is a local show.

As far as contest prep goes, I am all planned out for the next year, but what most consider the prep, the last 12 weeks, I am leaving up to a professional. I already have my nutrition guy lined up to dial me in for the last 16 weeks, and I have convinced a former Mr. New Jersey to help me with posing, again, when it comes time.

For now, I am leaning out until the end of August,

Then, I am going into a mass phase until January 1 ,

Then I will start my early stages of contest prep by using my own METABOLISM book, and the program outlined in it.

When I get the exact contest date (Mr. South Jersey 2003), I will keep with the METABOLISM plan until I am 16 weeks out.

That's when I will turn myself over to the ones who know about getting someone ready for a contest. I am good at fat loss, and I can train athletes for peak performance, but I am not going to act like I know all about contest prep.

I have read alot on it, but I would rather just have someone who has coached MANY competitors take over the diet and training programming for me at that point, since I am sure I won't be in the happiest of moods.

When all is said and done, I would like to come in at a ripped 230 for the first time I get onstage. Then I will see how I stack up.

Sounds good. When the time 'comes'...keep me posted as to how everything is going. I'd be very interested to see how things turn out for you. I know this is a bit premature, but, best of luck to you.

Trainer Dan, in your response to "Why CKD" you mentioned that the T3 levels are not compromised on a CKD because of the lengthy carb up. Can you explain that for me? I am interested in how these things work.

Thanks!
Meg