I consider myself an intermediate weight trainer as I've been lifting weights for about 5 years now, and have studied all the proper ways to do it (though have never had a personal trainer). I did BFL, and still do that type of workout. I'm feeling really lousy lately -- could be the workout, could be the eating, could be something "female," -- who knows? But, with all the experienced weight lifters out there, I thought I might rule out whether my workout is causing my fatigue. Mind you, I'm not at all fatigued during the workout. I can still do the full workout, and am even upping the weights on certain moves.

Ok, here's what I do (bear in mind I might not call these moves by their correct names):

Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays: High-intensity interval cardio ala BFL

2 minutes at 2.5 mph
1 minute at 3 mph
1 minute at 3.5
1 minute at 4
1 minute at 4.5
Repeat this 3 more times; on the fourth time, I tack on 1 minute at 5 mph.

Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Saturdays: Weight training plus cardio

Leg extensions: 12 at 40 lbs, 10 at 50 lbs, 8 at 60 lbs, 6 at 70 lbs
Hamstring curls: 12 at 40 lbs, 10 at 50 lbs, 8 at 60 lbs, 6 at 70 lbs
Squats: 12 at 16 lbs, 8 at 20 lbs, 8 at 24 lbs, 6 at 30 lbs
Calf raises: 12 at 16 lbs, 8 at 20 lbs, 8 at 24 lbs, 6 at 30 lbs
Aductor lifts: 12 at 5 lbs, 10 at 5 lbs, 8 at 5 lbs, 6 at 5 lbs
Abductor lifts: 12 at 5 lbs, 10 at 5 lbs, 8 at 5 lbs, 6 at 5 lbs

Standing straight arm lat pulldowns: 12 at 30 lbs, 10 at 40 lbs, 8 at 50 lbs, 6 at 60 lbs
Tricep pulldowns: 12 at 30 lbs, 10 at 40 lbs, 8 at 50 lbs, 6 at 60 lbs
Sitting lat pulldowns: 12 at 30 lbs, 10 at 40 lbs, 8 at 50 lbs, 6 at 60 lbs

Shoulder presses: 12 at 10 lbs, 10 at 16 lbs, 8 at 20 lbs, 6 at 24 lbs
Arnolds: 12 at 10 lbs, 10 at 16 lbs, 8 at 20 lbs, 6 at 24 lbs
Bicep curls: 12 at 10 lbs, 10 at 16 lbs, 8 at 20 lbs, 6 at 24 lbs

Chest presses: 12 at 30 lbs, 10 at 40 lbs, 8 at 50 lbs, 6 at 60 lbs
Butterflys: 12 at 30 lbs, 10 at 40 lbs, 8 at 50 lbs, 6 at 60 lbs
Resisted crunches: 24 at 30 lbs, 20 at 40 lbs, 16 at 50 lbs, 12 at 60 lbs

I follow this up with 30 minutes on the treadmill at 2.5 mph.

So, what do you think? I've been doing this for 2 weeks now. I feel great when I'm doing it, but very sleepy (not weak) for the rest of the day.

I should also add that I get up at 4:00 am to fit this in. Then I go to work and don't get home until usually 6:30. I'm in bed at 9:00.

Thoughts?

PS: I just turned 50 years old, and I'm at around 164 at the moment. I might have something female going on. I'm bloated constantly, gassy, and feel like "everything that's going in isn't coming out" if you know what I mean.

I'm eating mostly protein and fat, with carbs kept down to around 20 to 30 most days.

Hi Bawdy,

I think your program is maybe a little too ambitious.

I would suggest that you stop with cardio afther the weight training, and divide the weight exercises on a two or threeday split. That way the body has more time for the very important bodybuilding factor 'REST'!

The weights seem a little light for someone so involved in exercise, maybe you could check how much better a program of steadily light increase in weight can benefit you.

Bawdy, how long is your total exercise session on your lifting days? Anything in excess of 45-60minutes, and your cortisol levels supposedly rise---you might want to research this further.

Also, I find that I need more net carbs on lifting days.....the meals immediately before and immediately after are the best time for these extra carbs. I bet you this is what is most directly causing your fatigue and your, uhm, other troubles.

Finally, along the lines of what Watcher wrote....I would look into condensing the lifting routine a bit...that's alot of volume, and some of those exercises are redundant Ex--abducter/adductor---if you do heavy squats, these muscle s get worked indirectly. Maybe just one lat exercise, and arnies/shoulder presses--pick one or the other.

Interesting responses. The lower-body workout takes around 20 minutes, and the upper-body workout takes 40 minutes. The cardio is not stressing at all (at 2.5 mph, it's a leisurely stroll).

The poundage is all I can handle. With the BFL method, you do decreasing number of reps in each set, but increase the weight. By the last set (of 6), you're lifting at your maximum -- like there's no way you could do even 1 more rep or pound added. I guess there are several schools of thought.

The redundancy is interesting. But how is the adductor/abductor redundant? With one I'm working my outer thighs, and the other I'm working my inner thighs. I just figured this was providing a more rounded workout. But I guess I can see how the squats can work these indirectly. Though I don't do heavy squats. My thighs are big enough, thank you very much! That's why I'm not using much weight down there.

And I should do EITHER the Arnie's OR the shoulder presses? YIPPEE!!!!! I hate those shoulder presses. They just don't feel natural to me.

As for the lat exercises, I know they're all supposed to work the lats, but with the standing straight-arm pull down, it feels like I'm working my abs as well, and not just indirectly. I can feel the muscle work. But ok, I can drop one of them.

Now, one more question for Watcher. You mentioned that "maybe you could check how much better a program of steadily light increase in weight can benefit you." Can you give me an example? I've been doing this on and off for several years, and when I work, I really isolate and try to work the muscle in isolation.

My Bowflex can increase in these pound increments: 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 . . .

I have two dumbbells each in 5, 8, 10, 12, 15, 20, 25, and 30.

Thanks for your time in responding to my questions. You've given me a lot to think about.

Yesterday I did without the cardio after the lifting, and this morning I skipped the cardio altogether. Maybe I will go back to upper on one day, cardio the next, lower the next, cardio the next, and keep repeating (with one day off per week).

Bawdy, if you'll do a cut-and-paste into the beyondlowcarb forum, where you're also a member, you will get scads of feedback--most of it enlightening.

Just my $.02

Best, Sona

I did the BFL program my first challenge and found that 20-30g was simply not enough carbs to keep me energized. I ended up increasing them to almost 50g per day and somewhere in the neighborhood of 2200-2700 claories -and STILL lost weight consistently and no longer felt tired and sluggish. You use a majority of these carbs for your workouts so no harm done.

It is a very intense plan and you need fuel to maintain that intensity.

I would, however recommend doing the entire BFL program. The way it is designed- upper body. lower body alternating days, gives your body adequate rest time. I think the beginner program of alternating cardio and weights every other day is not a bad idea. (Cardio is every day (pre-weights) in the advanced program but still only 20mHIIT.) I don't think cardio after your workout is necessary. You are getting a good cardio pump just from the workout itself (as long as you follow the 1 minute between sets and 2 minutes between movements rule)

Watcher, I just wanted to add that just because I said I've been weight training for about 5 years now, it in no way means it's been all the time. I start and stop. I always work up to about the level I'm at now (or maybe just a tad higher), and then drop the workouts for any number of stupid reasons.

Sona, thanks for the tip on the other board. I haven't posted there in eons, and only a couple times when I did. (Did that make sense?)

Twins Mama, thanks for your comments. You're right, I probably don't eat enough carbs. The thing is, whenever I start adding in grains (like oatmeal and whole-grain breads) I start craving more and more. I seem to be able to tolerate a bit of sweetness here and there without triggering cravings, but not grains.

So maybe I should increase carbs a bit by adding a little fruit? What would you suggest? I really don't agree with the nutrition plan in BFL.

Actually, I did very well with BFL when I did my first challenge. What ruined it for me was that I started listening to the advice of a lot of people to eat oatmeal (prot-meal -- protein powder added to oatmeal) and grains, and adding one free day per week (which turned into several free meals, at least, several times a week). I spiraled out of control. Well, that's not really true. Since that time I've been going up and down the same 10 pounds.

OK. Decision made.

I'm going back BFL, but not their nutrition. I'll add more carbs, to 50 a day to start. Lots of protein, moderate fat. I'll do the BFL routine of alternating days of upper body, HIIT, lower body, HIIT, upper body, rest, etc.

But still, Twins Mama, what would you suggest for upping the carbs? Do you think I should up the carbs on lifting days and scale back a bit on cardio days?

This is what I do. However, I also had trouble with oatmeal and grains.........even if consumed directly pre- and post- workout, they make me feel sluggish and sleepy for the rest of the day. So, I am doing a TKD, which is high GI carbs directly pre-, during, and post lifting. I have a small portion of fruit (ex, 1 peach, or half an apple) with my breakfast eggs about an hour-1.5hrs prior to lifting, and then 1 roll of smarties as I'm writing up my workout, then 2 more rolls as I lift, and then the final roll with a protein shake immediately after. The smarties are 6g carbs (from dextrose) each, and my shake has another 5.5g dextrose, as well as 17g protein. So that's ~30g fast acting carbs around my workout. Then I eat lunch (protein+fat+low gi veggies) about an hour after, then dinner (same mix as lunch) about 3-4hrs after that, and then finally a pre-bed snack of ~half cup of cottage cheese, whipped w/either strawberries or s/f jello. I've been eating this way for a few weeks now, and I am feeling great, and losing fat. The smarties I've been doing for about a month now, and MAN! have my workouts improved. More intense and energized......makes me think the dextrose carbs are getting in and out of my blood stream quick enough not to create trouble, and then of course I'm eating good, real food the rest of the day.

Re the abductor/adductors.......when I was a member of a gym long ago, this was one of my favorite machines. Looked funny, felt great, However, I've since "learned" that squats are more efficient at getting both inner and outer thigh muscles, and instead of making your legs look "wider", they actually tighten them up and create "depth", if that makes sense.

If your workouts are only in the 20-40' time frame, and you like doing the abd/add's, then keep them! They won't screw you up---they're just not as important as the larger compund moves (squat, deads, bench).

HTH! Lisa

Dane, one more question (yea, right!).

I have to admit I smirked when I read about the Smarties (probably my favorite candy, by the way -- not a fan of chocolate), but hey, if it works, it works.

I'm wondering, though, how this will fit in with my day. I'm willing to make some adjustments, but within certain limits because of work.

Let's ignore when I wake up each day.

I have to be to work no later than 8:00. This is a concession, because I've always tried to be there at 7:00 in the past. It takes 90 minutes to get to work (I have to drop my dog off at Day Care on the way). Then I work until 5:00, and it takes another 90 minutes to get home.

So, from 6:30 am to 6:30 pm (best case scenario), I'm booked. When I get home, I like to relax for a few minutes at least before making dinner, which usually happens around 7:30 or later. Not much time to fit in a workout between dinner and going to bed.

That leaves the morning. It takes me about 45 minutes to shower and do my makeup and hair. That brings us to 5:45 am. I need to have my workout done by 5:45 am (5:30 would be better).

I'm more than willing to get up at 4:00, and have done so for years.

But how do I fit in the eating that you suggest? I'm not challenging you, I want to make this work I'm trying to see how. Any ideas?

I always upped my carbs with a double serving of protein shake after my workouts. I never really got into the high GI after workouts and preferred to counter the cortisol with glutamine instead. That way I get more bang for my buck- glutamine helps with the soreness and cortisol, the shake adds more carbs at the best time to burn them, and gives me more protein ( I was averaging about 200g per day). Adding some heavy cream to the shake works too and makes it creamier. Adding my Udos oil helped with calories and got the EFAs in. My protein shakes were an essential part of my program. Also, having a glass of water with about 10g glutamine mixed in will help to start to control your cortisol BEFORE you start your workout.

I also would eat higher carb veggies, like artichokes (my favorite), that are also high in fiber. I have a weakness for berries too and would occasionaly add them to my post workout shake or eat them as a snack.

You could try adding more carbs on weight days only, and see how you feel after cardio, but I think it's very important that you DO add more carbs on weight days for sure. (I did both cardio and weights 6 days per week so didn't need to cycle.)

Morning Bawdy!
There are as many, many ways of blending diet and training,as there are people, and what works for me, may not work for you. I tried copying Built's style of eating, which is lower GI carbs before and after lifting, as she cannot handle high GI. Welp, as I said earlier, makes me sleepy. For me, high GI carbs get in and processed quickly. I tee-hee'd at the use of smarties too (and it must be smarties, pixie sticks, or some other dextrose based candy, not sucrose based), but I was getting good results with plain dextrose tablets. I love smarties anyway, so when I went back to FL last month, I took the opportunity and stocked up.

My sleep patterns, kids' schedules, etc., are such that a morning routine is what I do, and it can only fit in during the 11am-12:15pm window. So, I just rearranged my eating to accomodate it. Built (she's a good example, I think, ) works all day, like you, but she has time in the evening, so she works out then, and eats a later dinner. All the reading and research I have done has convinced me that there are no real advantages to WHEN you exercise, so long as you DO IT.

So!! What I would do, if I were you, and on your schedule, is the following...... I'd get up at 4am, and immed. guzzle a protein shake in water, and either make sure the shake had dextrose in it, or eat a roll of smarties with it. Then drive to the gym, eating another roll of smarties, giving the protein and dex a chance to hit my system, and therefore be available for use. Do the workout, and then immed, after, I'd guzzle down another scoop of protein powder (that I had pre-measured in a jar, just add water), and eat 1-2 more rolls of smarties. If I did some cardio after lifting, then I would wait and have the shake/dex immed. after that. BTW-----water water water, both immed after rising, before, during, after workout. Yes, I float,

Then, I'd hop in my car, go home, and have breakfast. I like fat and protien, maybe a little carb (up to 20g) for breakfast, but you want to wait about 45-60' after your last dextrose ingestion, before eating lotsa fat.

Note: on cardio only days, I would guzzle a scoop of low carb pp right outta bed, but no added dex. No dex at all, no more anything except water, until I got home and made breakfast. Then life as usual. There are some who say that fasted cardio first thing in the morning will burn the most fat, and they are probably right, but most things I have read have said the amount extra is minimal......more important is the fact that I feel like crap if I try to exercise fasted, so my intensity isn't there, so my cardio workout would suffer, thereby nullifying any benefits of no food in the system, As always, YMMV.

Probably you know this, but in case you don't---the purpose of eating a "fast" carb like dextrose, is it is quickly absorbed into your bloodstream, as is whey protein powder. These nutrients are available for your body in roughly 20-30', so if your body is exercising, it will use the nutrients rather than store them. After exercise, you spike your insulin again with the dex, as well as dump some more "fast" protein in there. Now insulin "drives" the protein and blood glucose to where it's needed......your recovering muscles, and not to the fat cells. If you eat fat soon after the dex/protein combination, not only might some of this fat get "driven" into the fat cells, but more importantly, it slows down the absorption of the glucose and protein, which is not what you want, post exercise. So, I wouldn't add cream to a post workout shake. If you were having a protein shake as a breakfast substitute, and NOT exercising soon after, then adding cream to a low carb protein powder would be just fine. Protein and fat in a meal, and a little lower GI carb=fine. Protein and carbs of any GI=fine. Higher GI carbs and fat=of course, not fine.

If you decide to experiment with this, keep in mind you may have to adjust the amount of dextrose you eat. 4 rolls is only 24g, but you might do better with 2 rolls total (12-18g), in which case I would do one before and one after. Just depends on how good your body is at clearing extra blood glucose. You might find that you can't handle it all, that you find yourself with carb cravings, or other funky IR symptoms. Luckily for me, I am not that sensitive; it takes quite a bit of sugar before I am a zombie.

Finally......once again, this is just what I have condensed for *me* as something that is working great for *me*. It might work great for you, too!

One more thing......Twins Mama mentions glutamine.......If I could find it here, I would take it, as it is supposed to help with muscle soreness and recovery. (Don't know about how it affects cortisol....can't hurt, anyway.) Cottage cheese is naturally high in L-Glutamine, plus casein, a slow-release protein, so that's why I like it as a bedtime snack. Creatine is the only other supplement that has been proven to help, but I can't find that either. Yet. My pp does have some, though, whew.

Yikes, that's a lot to think about.

Yesterday, on the advice of a good cyberfriend (Danakins), I downloaded Tom Venuto's "Burn the Fat, Feed the Muscle." Some say it's similar to BFL, with some minor/major differences.

I'm about a third of the way through it, and have so many questions spinning around in my head. It's 5 or 6 meals a day. According to the calculations, my maintaining caloric need is 1442, and to lose I need to drop it by 15% to 1200. That's not much. Turns out to be 240 calories per meal (every 3 hours). Also, for the "endomorph" body type (which I defnitely fall into), I should eat around 40% carbs, 40% protein, and 20% fat. That calculates to 120 grams each of carbs and protein. 120 grams of carbs?????? That's 6 times what I normally eat!

I'm really struggling with that one. I'll finish all the reading and give it a shot, though. I have definitely come to the conclusion that I'm eating too little for the workouts I want to do.

Today is supposed to be Day 1 of the new program, but I won't be 100% on for a couple days. I'll just follow the general principles until I finish the book and then follow it to the letter. Looks like I'll be spending a lot of quality time with FitDay for a while!

Oh, and by the way, I'm very lucky in that I don't have to drive to any gym (especially since the closest one is over an hour away!). In my own "gym" (in the extra room next to our bedroom) we have a Bowflex, a treadmill, a stationary bike, a Nordic-Trak, a Total Gym, free weights (dumbbells and disc weights), a weight bench, and an incline bench.

So basically I have no excuse not to be buff!

Thanks again for all your good advice. I'll be printing out this thread for study.

It's a PITA figuring out what works for you, but once you get it, WOW! Good luck in your search!