The post, “tell me more about stalls Doreen & others” got me to thinking...

The following blah, blah about eating low-carb substitutes for high-carb food is from my experience with being a die-hard addict.

When you think about or eat substitutes, your body goes through the same physiological process as if you were eating or thinking about the “real thing”. Anticipation, a little insulin is released, you eat and your body goes through its programmed paces. Your body is programmed behave this way. You cannot stop it. The carbs are low but it’s too late! Insulin has already done its work.

If you have depended upon carbs in the past to see you through difficult or happy times, or any times at all, depending upon or the overuse of “legal treats” has you substituting one addiction for another. The cycle is never broken. If you can stick with “whole food” low-carb, you will break the physical cycle of carb dependency. As for the psychological, well that’s a whole other ball game.

Just musings here, but it is definitely true for me. YMMV.

Karen

Karen, I deleted a previous reply I had posted to this. It was little more than a long-winded rant, and all I did was agree and expand on your ruminations. I think your words are accurate and eloquent enough for folks to do that on their own.

Just wanted to say thanks for your wisdom and insight. I need it, and look forward to it each and every day.

And, I don't think your words are blah, blah, blah. Yada-yada, or blurb maybe --- but blah???? Don't think so ..

love from Doreen

Thanks so much Doreen!

Carb addiction is something I think about everyday and I like to talk about it too, hoping it might ring true for someone else.

Ditto on your posts. I learn so much from you and you say it so well. I'm a sucker for a swell turn of phrase.

I'd like to hear your expansions and rantings. It would probably help me!

How about blurb, blurb blurb instead of blah, blah, blah?

XO

Karen

P.S. I don't remember who said "the unexamined life is not worth living", but I say it to myself frequently. Great words to live by!

Hi Karen

Thanks for the response, I had a horrible feeling that the hard word was coming but of course you are quite right. If you're right off sweets, you're never liable to fall off the wagon because they'll no longer hold any appeal.

Are there any articles linking or on this site, explaining more about the 'insulin' reaction to legal treats??

Also I looked up your recipe page and they are superb. I cant wait to make some.

However I found out today (after various episodes since beginning Atkins) that I have gallstones on top of everything else. I love meat and cheese and assume that they're out the picture now. Do you know anything about it and what's good to eat?? I presume fish and chicken so is it time to introduce pretend breads (nutless?) and things?? Presume others here must have gallstones and have some experience modifying the diet.

Also will I still lose if I undertake a low fat, low carb, high protein diet or will it be slower?

Thanks for your help.

Nicola

hi Nicola,

Don't know if you had the chance to read my reply to your previous post about CCL and stalling (?) ... I'll try to address the gallstone problem here, though ..

First, obesity itself is a risk factor, as you know. Also, rapid weight loss can aggravate an already present gallbladder disease, usually from very low calorie, lowFAT diets. I have heard anecdotally that extremely lowFAT dieting (less than 20% of total calories from fat) will trigger gallstones --- in fact, two of my nursing colleagues who lost over 50 lbs. each developed gallstones requiring surgery within 6 months of losing their weight on a lowfat diet.

Here's what happens - the gallbladder is basically just a storage receptacle for bile, which is produced in the liver. When fat is eaten and reaches the small intestine, the gallbladder responds by contracting -- "squirting" the bile through the bile duct into the intestine to digest the fat. It's estimated that nearly 40% of us have some gallstones, but they're so tiny that they're easily flushed out with the force of the contraction or "squirt". If the diet is very low FAT, not a lot of bile is required, and the gallbag doesn't have to contract very much. This allows the acids, sterols and minerals in the bile to "pool", thus providing opportunity for the tiny, microscopic debris to accumulate and form into bigger stones. And then one day, some fat is eaten and the gallbladder tries to contract, and it can't because there's a stone lodged in there somewhere, and YEOWWWCH, pain results. Or worse scenario, the stone is freed and gets squirted into the bile duct, which then becomes blocked, and even more Pain & Agony results, as well as the risk of the bile duct rupturing, which is very serious indeed!

Now, I'm not a doctor, just a nurse, so you need to follow your physicians advice. But some general recommendations are -

1. Lose your weight gradually and steadily; aim for losses of no more than 1 or 2 lbs a week. In other words, keep to the upper limits of your CCL.
   
2. Eat some fat. The best thing would be to eat smaller meals, more frequently, to avoid a big load on the gallbladder. Try to avoid meals and snacks that are just carb only -- ie, have some meat or cheese with your lowcarb fruit, or some full-fat yogurt (sugar-free, of course). If you choose to eat lowcarb muffins, bread and the like, ALWAYS eat it with some fat-containing protein. If you eat a meal or snack without some fat in it, the gallbladder won't contract and flush itself out.
   
3. Your query about avoiding saturated fat is a good one. It would be better to eat less animal fat overall, choosing fish, fowl, eggs, tofu, etc more often, and red meats, cheese and cream less often. However, adding essential Omega-3 fatty acids in the form of flax or fish oils would be beneficial, and in my opinion, therapeutic for inhibiting the production of gallstones. Also olive oil, avocados, and nuts (but not peanuts, which are a legume) are highest in monounsaturates, which will have a beneficial effect on bile and cholesterol production.

On the subject of insulin-response triggered by eating artificially sweetened "legal" treats, I believe the Hellers have some comments in their "Carbohydrate Addicts" books. I think the response is indirect, in that eating a sweet-tasting food causes certain EMOTIONAL triggers, which lead to surges in neuro-hormones like serotonin, endorphins, etc..... and this sets up a cascade of physical events in the body -- like an adrenalin "rush", and this is what stimulates insulin.

Anyway, hope this helps ..

Doreen

Great post Doreen, as usual

One comment I have on the gradual weight loss is in regards to what is "gradual". 2 lbs for a 100 lbs person may be a lot, while for a 400 lbs person it would be very moderate. I would say 1-2% is more accurate in defining gradual weight loss.

Wa'il

Right you are Wa'il, thanks. In this case, since Nicola has indicated she already has gallstones, it would be best for her and others in similar situation to stick to the LOWER rate of loss, or 1% as you indicated. As opposed to "gradual" loss for someone who has no gallbladder pathology.

I guess I should have made that clearer in my post...

Doreen

Thanks Nicola!

Doreen has covered your question excellently. I never knew that was how a gall bladder worked.

I would give Protein Power a read. It's a great book. Explains stuff clearly and has chapters on motivation and menu suggestions. You can eat a bit of fruit, "lite" breads, etc. Still low carb, but not quite as hard core as Atkins.

Karen

Thanks all once again.

As usual heaps more info than from the Doctor's brief run down. Particularly the differentiation between Saturated and Unsaturated Fats as he just said Fats and I was wondering how I was going to cope without even nuts.

Losing weight rapidly definitely does play a part (35lbs in a little under 4 weeks) but in hindsight I'm sure I've had them for some time and have put the other very occassional (less violent ) attacks down to some strange form of indigestion. It has probably been aggravated by all the meat and cheese and the weight loss. Sad to have to slow it down but it makes the diet even easier (more carbs) and in any event, like you have previously said, its not a diet but a permanent thing so if it takes time, I have plenty of time to do it in. Anyway I'm sure life is much nicer with rather than without a gallbladder.

Also in a backward way, its proof that the diet has been working!!Also they checked all my bloods to be sure it wasnt a heart problem and whilst not specific, he said I had no risk factors. I take this to mean that the bloods were fine (and they never have been for the last five years) and my blood pressure is now lower than what it was when I was a lot younger and at my correct weight. Dont let anybody say this woe doesnt work (at least not for nearly everyone). I am now waiting on my repeat GTT and I'm expecting a dramatic improvement there as well!

Once again thanks for the advice, I'm off shopping for a range of culinary accessories and as we have great fish here, off to make some of Karen's wonderful fish dishes!!

Nicola

Karen,

I appreciated the eloquent way you expressed yourself regarding substitutes, in my case, substitutes for sugar.

It helps me to read of other people's experiences with the substances which, for myself, have and always will be addictive for me. Reading of your experiences helps me to stay on course.

Thanks,

jan

Karen, I really appreciate all your messages about carb addiction. I also appreciate how calm and steady and kind you are in giving that message (I recall a post where you kept at it, very nicely, trying to get people to see this problem through the addiction lens). For me, I may have said 'sugar addict" and "flour addict" last year in a half-joking way, just using the terms because there was nothing more convenient...but these past couple of months (really the time after my lapse back into full-fledged carb abuse), I have begun to understand the truth of saying "carb addiction"--it's physiological and psychological and every bit as serious as a cocaine addiction (if cheaper--lol). I'm not saying everyone reading this board suffers from it, but I surely do, and I feel I'm making great strides in dealing with it as such. I can hardly believe I can say this now, but I'm suddenly grateful for my lifelong weight problem, because it is hating being fat (in a world where fat women are so hated) that finally led me to think about carb addiction, and getting off carbs then struggling to stay off that finally made me understand that in one sense, the addiction is just the symptom. A lifetime of self-medication with carbs is finally turning around, and I'm amazed at the self-discovery that has been part of it.

Enough babbling about me--this started off as a thank you to Karen!

Oh, and it was Socrates who said it.

Karen

"When you think about or eat substitutes, your body goes through the same physiological process as if you were eating or thinking about the “real thing”. "


You slightly worried me that just thinking about food can affect my metabolism.

Please tell me that effect is minimal. I have just been thinking about a a giant pizza and dough balls followed by a creme brulee and a few petit fours with a glass of port. I must have put on a few pounds at least

More seriously there is a post from me on the health threads about my own gallbladder experience and others. Not sure how to connect these two threads.

Not necessarily. My musings were mostly on me and what can potentially happen to other addicts. If I think about a big bowl of ice cream and get all dewy eyed about it, or eat artificial sweeteners, my body goes through the same paces as if I had actually eaten sugar. It's something I discovered through self observation, and listening to others on the board. For me AS are low-carb methadone, but YMMV.

nrussel started on one subject and moved into speaking of her own gall-bladder attack. The two were unrelated and Doreen gave the ins-and outs of why it can happen after switching from low fat to low carb.

Karen

Karen,

As ever your musings are thought provoking. I hope you did not mind the light hearted comment.

The original thread that Karen was referring to, Tell me more about stalls Doreen & others was originally posted back in April 2001. The member was pondering over the meaning of stalls, and the body's metabolism slowing over time as weight is lost and how it responds to carbs and sugar.

It's worthwhile reading that thread again, especially for someone who's worried about stalling and looking for ways to overcome it.

Doreen