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  #1   ^
Old Thu, Oct-11-18, 06:59
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is online now
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Default "Ideal" protein to help seniors rebuild lost muscle

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releas...81009135938.htm

Quote:
While exercise buffs have long used protein supplements to gain muscle, new research suggests one protein source in particular, whey protein, is most effective for seniors struggling to rebuild muscle lost from inactivity associated with illness or long hospital stays.


Quote:
While exercise buffs have long used protein supplements to gain muscle, new research from McMaster University suggests one protein source in particular, whey protein, is most effective for seniors struggling to rebuild muscle lost from inactivity associated with illness or long hospital stays.

The study, published online in The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, compared the impact of different forms of protein supplements on older adults, a growing population challenged by the loss of muscle and strength, or sarcopenia, which in turn can affect balance, gait and the ability to perform the simple tasks of everyday life.

Researchers found that protein did not stop lean muscle loss caused by inactivity, however, whey supplements helped to rebuild muscle once the participants activities resumed.

"The important message here is that not all proteins are created equal. Whey is one of the highest quality proteins and is ideal for older persons," says Stuart Phillips, senior author on the paper and a professor of kinesiology at McMaster.

Researchers set out to compare the impact of whey versus collagen protein on muscle loss during periods of inactivity and then recovery.

Whey is considered a high-quality or complete protein, meaning it is rich in all essential amino acids and is higher in leucine, one of the essential amino acids the body cannot make itself and therefore, must derive from food.

Collagen peptides, by comparison, are much lower in their leucine content, lack or are low in essential amino acids.

For the study, researchers recruited men and women who were non-smokers, non-diabetic and between the ages of 65 and 80 years old. One group of subjects consumed whey protein, the other collagen peptides, throughout the study.

For a five-week period their diet was controlled, including a two-week time frame where their daily steps were restricted to 750 per day and their calorie intake reduced by 500 calories per day, conditions that might mimic what older people often experience during a hospital stay.

Participants returned to normal activity levels during a one-week recovery period.

The team had predicted that the collagen peptide group would experience a significantly greater muscle loss than the whey protein group, but that didn't happen. Both groups lost the same amount of muscle.

"While we already know that complete protein sources are more potent for stimulating building processes we were surprised to discover that after two weeks of limiting steps among the participants, there were no apparent differences in muscle loss between the two groups," says Sara Oikawa the lead author and a graduate student in the Department of Kinesiology at McMaster.

While protein was ineffective in mitigating muscle loss, say researchers, when participants returned to normal, muscle-building activity, the whey group recovered more skeletal muscle.

"When we consider measures that can be taken to help seniors as they age, it's clear that whey is an important ingredient. Conversely, we should avoid collagen in formulations targeting older people," says Oikawa.

In future research, Oikawa plans to focus on women specifically, who tend to experience greater difficulties in rebuilding strength.


So, why the war zone? They take a protein known to be incomplete, compare it to a complete protein, and then declare that one complete protein to be the master of the universe. By this logic I'm the world wrestling champion--compared to my 4 year old nephew. I'm being a little presumptuous here, we've never actually fought.

No problem with the idea that protein quality matters, or that whey is of higher quality than collagen.

I think a main takeaway from the study is to remain active. Or at least avoid inactivity.

Probably nothing wrong with supplementing collagen, for most people. It shouldn't be a major contributor to your protein requirement. For people targeting a "moderate" protein intake, mostly sticking to more complete proteins probably makes sense.

Since this is the war zone, I'll throw in something pithy about Ray Peat's idea that we should eat more collagen and less complete proteins. Ray Peat is a buffoon.
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  #2   ^
Old Thu, Oct-11-18, 07:19
cotonpal's Avatar
cotonpal cotonpal is online now
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I saw this article yesterday and had the same response you did, Teaser. Comparing whey to collagen, that makes no sense. Oh well, I suppose it might help boost sales of whey protein. This elderly body will stick with real meat.
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  #3   ^
Old Thu, Oct-11-18, 09:16
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is online now
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Quote:
Researchers found that protein did not stop lean muscle loss caused by inactivity, however, whey supplements helped to rebuild muscle once the participants activities resumed.


WTH??? FIrst part of the sentence mentions "protein" and "inactivity" then second section specifies "whey supplements" and "activites"---two changes.

I was expecting to see the miraculous when protein increasing muscle in the inactive participants. Not this nonsense.
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  #4   ^
Old Thu, Oct-11-18, 10:46
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GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
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Sounds like a marketing pitch sponsored by the Dairy Council. Would have been a more level playing field if they compared Whey to meat protein. Some supplements that are isolates of naturally occurring proteins don't always provide what is needed, as isolation removes other important protein components.

And that's why there's this issue:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17093159
MSPI (Whey) or soluble milk protein is digested very rapidly and causes other issues:
Quote:
CONCLUSIONS:

Our results confirm the major role of kinetics in dietary nitrogen postprandial utilization and highlight the paradox of MSPI, which, despite its high Protein Digestibility Corrected Amino Acid Score, ensures a rate of amino acid delivery that is too rapid to sustain the anabolic requirement during the postprandial period. Milk proteins had the best nutritional quality, which suggested a synergistic effect between soluble proteins and caseins.


Love the Ray Peat comment.
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  #5   ^
Old Thu, Oct-11-18, 10:57
LCer4Life's Avatar
LCer4Life LCer4Life is offline
 
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“Since this is the war zone, I'll throw in something pithy about Ray Peat's idea that we should eat more collagen and less complete proteins. Ray Peat is a buffoon. “

Agree! 😁
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  #6   ^
Old Thu, Oct-11-18, 19:44
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bluesinger bluesinger is offline
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This subject is timely for me personally, as I am unable to eat enough protein. Just can't eat enough. Period. So this affects my protein intake.

For supplementation, I have both whey (MetRX PLus) and collagen (Premium Collagen Peptide Powder From Grass Fed Beef.) I can utilize more of the collagen because it has no bulk. Even added to coffee, there's no "thickening" feature so there's room in my stomach. Harder for me to consume the MetRX.
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  #7   ^
Old Thu, Oct-11-18, 21:16
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deirdra deirdra is offline
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Have you ever tried egg white protein powder? You may find it less bulky than whey.
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  #8   ^
Old Thu, Oct-11-18, 21:22
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bluesinger bluesinger is offline
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Plan: Atkins 72~Induction
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I've not tried the egg white protein powder. Something in eggs distresses my digestive tract, but it's probably the yolks. Don't know. When I use the whey protein powder, it's part of meal substitution.
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  #9   ^
Old Tue, Oct-16-18, 04:37
M Levac M Levac is offline
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Whey used to be waste, now it's a supplement cuz protein. Bran is the same, was waste, now gud for ya cuz fiber.

As with any other supplement, if there's an effect, there must be a deficiency to begin with. Therefore, check the overall diet cuz deficient. Consider going low-carb. We start with a crap diet of crap, go low-carb, everything gud for reels. That crap diet of crap mustn't be food. Add whey, feelz gud, diet must be crap. Start with crap diet of crap, add collagen crap, still crap.

So, ya, Teaser, that's no gud logic. Warzooooned!!! (use Torgue's voice for that, it's a Borderlands reference)

Incidentally, dietary protein on its own causes muscle and other tissue growth independently of activity. It could be the insulin through inhibition of proteolysis and stimulation of proteosynthesis, but it could be just the influx of excess protein that enters the on-going protein synthesis, a tipping point of sorts. The idea here is that muscle growth occurs continuously, myostatin inhibits muscle growth, follistatin inhibits myostatin, and then throughout there's protein supply which modulates the potency of those mechanisms especially on the low side but also likely on the high side. Or it could be some signaling by some amino acids or other stuff found in meat for example.
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  #10   ^
Old Tue, Oct-16-18, 06:59
bluesinger's Avatar
bluesinger bluesinger is offline
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Plan: Atkins 72~Induction
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I tracked this back to the source. Here is the actual clinical trial:
https://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/...03285737&rank=1

Please note:
Sponsor:McMaster University
Collaborator:National Dairy Council
Information provided by (Responsible Party):McMaster University

For those interested in How We Age. (the science)
https://www.the-scientist.com/features/how-we-age-35872

This article also addresses the idea of quantity or quality of life. As one of the "elderly" I can speak to the subject. Because of my ongoing good health, I can expect to live at least another 20 years. But do I want to? The part of me which thinks is curious. I'd like to watch the unfolding of what the future holds in technical advances. Maybe one of those clinical studies will give the answer to the breaking down of DNA sequences which cause the errors which bring about aging.

It's too late for me not to age LOL, but I'm more interested in the quality of my life. It's up to me, and I believe that ketogenesis is the best way to stave off disease and exercise is the best way to my personal enjoyment of life.
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  #11   ^
Old Tue, Oct-16-18, 10:42
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GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
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Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesinger
This article also addresses the idea of quantity or quality of life. As one of the "elderly" I can speak to the subject. Because of my ongoing good health, I can expect to live at least another 20 years. But do I want to? The part of me which thinks is curious. I'd like to watch the unfolding of what the future holds in technical advances. Maybe one of those clinical studies will give the answer to the breaking down of DNA sequences which cause the errors which bring about aging.

It's too late for me not to age LOL, but I'm more interested in the quality of my life. It's up to me, and I believe that ketogenesis is the best way to stave off disease and exercise is the best way to my personal enjoyment of life.

Very well described, as longevity without quality of life is pointless. That's my current challenge. How do we live a productive, active and engaged life up to the very end? I've seen too many people including family members go through things that they never anticipated or planned for, but the physicians involved suggested all sorts of treatments to keep them alive. Simply staying alive for a long time misses the point. Living a long high-quality existence where one is vital, engaged, and active up to the end is the goal. Ideally, the graph of life quality should remain steady in very slow, controlled decline for most of the later duration of lifespan and then drop like a cliff at the very end. Strict ketogenesis and exercise are my ways of supporting this as well.
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  #12   ^
Old Mon, Jul-22-19, 12:45
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is online now
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pl-ZhmD7K5Q

Shawn Baker and Zach Bitter interview Keith Barr, he's a muscle physiologist. A lot here on retaining or gaining lean muscle and bone mass as we get older. A lot of emphasis on protein timing, his prescription is 20 grams minimum per meal, meals three or four hours apart. Goes into how the catabolic period between meals primes the system to take advantage of the next protein load.

Also big on jumping as high as you can every day. Muscles require a heavy workload, bones and cartilage are more about impact, you don't really have to work up a sweat to improve bone mass.
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  #13   ^
Old Mon, Aug-05-19, 14:38
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
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Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
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Here's an informative video by Dr. Ted Naiman titled Protein vs Energy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsROBLqr-SE
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  #14   ^
Old Mon, Aug-05-19, 15:36
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is online now
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Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQ6xtn1aiP0

Quote:
Why 36 eggs is Better than a Steroid Cycle. The 3 Dozen Eggs a Day Diet by Vince Gironda


Maybe this one's a bit over the top.

But a better claim to being the 'ideal' protein by far.

And eggs makes me thing of this;

Quote:
Background. Age-related muscle loss (sarcopenia) is a prevalent condition associated with disability and mortality. Exercise and optimal nutrition are interventions to prevent and treat sarcopenia, yet little is known, outside of protein, of the effect of common nutrition recommendations and medication use on exercise-related muscle gain.

Methods. Forty-nine community-dwelling, 60- to 69-year-old men and women completed 2 weeks of nutrition education (American Dietetic Association recommendations) followed by 12 weeks of high intensity resistance exercise training (RET) with postexercise protein supplementation and 3×/wk dietary logs.

Results. We observed a dose-response relationship between dietary cholesterol (from food logs) and gains in lean mass that was not affected by variability in protein intake. Serum cholesterol and the serum cholesterol lowering agent statin were also independently associated with greater increases in lean mass. Dietary cholesterol was not associated with serum cholesterol or the significant reduction in blood pressure observed, but trends were observed for altered plasma C-reactive protein.

Conclusion. These data suggest that dietary and serum cholesterol contribute to the skeletal muscles' response to RET in this generally healthy older population and that some statins may improve this response.


The authors don't seem overly fond of statins. They suggest that if they increase lean muscle mass with weight training, it might be because the statins make it easier to damage the muscles and get a training effect... sort of a hormetic thing. But when they break down diet versus statin intake, you can see that while there's an increase in lean mass at higher dietary cholesterol with or without statins, there's a greater increase with higher dietary cholesterol and statin intake. Also--sometimes a stronger effect of weight training might be seen if something is causing strength and/or lean mass in the previously sedentary individuals to be less than it could be. So there's the question of just how sarcopenic people were going in, given differences in normal uncompromised muscle mass from person to person, maybe hard to judge.

https://academic.oup.com/biomedgero.../10/1164/568431
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