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  #181   ^
Old Fri, Apr-29-16, 13:28
katmeyster's Avatar
katmeyster katmeyster is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 918
 
Plan: Keto (LCHFMP) + IF
Stats: 265/188/150 Female 61 inches
BF:Highest weight 290
Progress: 67%
Location: Las Cruces, New Mexico
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I spend time on the diabetes forum because my husband is diabetic, and I'm insulin resistant and pre-diabetic. Or at least I was. Because after LCHF and IFing for two+ months, I got my fasting blood glucose test and it was 83! I've never had a result that low -- ever. Lipids all dropping as well. Let's hope everything continues in this direction.
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  #182   ^
Old Fri, Apr-29-16, 23:21
Justin Jor Justin Jor is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 184
 
Plan: Bernsteinish
Stats: 314/231/199 Male 6'1
BF:
Progress: 72%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
Is your doctor wanting you off it? My understanding is that it does not have much risk of causing a hypo, unless combined with some other glucose lowering medication. If you look at how type II diabetes normally develops, very often insulin will be elevated long before blood glucose is--you can have a perfect blood glucose, a great A1C, but still have insulin levels that are higher than ideal--so maybe there would still be a benefit to taking metformin, even if blood glucose is behaving. Of course this is a doctor thing, not a some guy on the internet thing.


Metformin is generally pretty good for you even aside from blood sugar (possibly because of the insulin sensitivity) and I don't intend to come off it when/if I get to the point very I could.
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  #183   ^
Old Sat, Apr-30-16, 02:03
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 14,608
 
Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
Stats: 220/125/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 136%
Location: USA
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Vinegar is known as "Nature's metformin" because of its ability to control blood sugars. I dilute a tablespoon in a glass of water and have it with meals.
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  #184   ^
Old Sat, Apr-30-16, 03:33
cotonpal's Avatar
cotonpal cotonpal is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 5,283
 
Plan: very low carb real food
Stats: 245/125/135 Female 62
BF:
Progress: 109%
Location: Vermont
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesinger
Poor Dr. Fung! How NOT to write a diet book. Aren't we glad he wrote it anyway.


Dr Fung has outdone himself here. Snarky, very funny and on point.

Jean
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  #185   ^
Old Sat, Apr-30-16, 07:12
MickiSue MickiSue is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 8,006
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 189/148.6/145 Female 5' 5"
BF:36%/28%/25%
Progress: 92%
Location: Twin Cities, MN
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I kind of love that man.
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  #186   ^
Old Sat, Apr-30-16, 07:35
CallmeAnn's Avatar
CallmeAnn CallmeAnn is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,728
 
Plan: HFLC/IF
Stats: 218/176/140 Female 5'4"
BF:27%
Progress: 54%
Location: Houston area
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JLx wrote: "In general, I like his big picture view of the problem as I don't find myself thinking, "but, whattaya 'bout ..." as I read, as everything fits. To my view anyway and I'd be interested in hearing any dissent. "
Well, I do find myself thinking this way but it's no different for this book than for any other. We read so many things, we need to be somewhat skeptical or we will be faced with trying contradictory approaches as if they are all equally valid. I read somewhere recently that the gut bacteria studies were falsified and that is now falling out of favor. Yes, fasting is not a new idea, so it's different but every new book claims to be getting back to 'ancient wisdom'.
My dissent is two cases within my family. My sister is fasting on a roughly 18/6 and finds it supremely easy and convenient. She eats sardines, tuna or salmon, a protein drink (pea protein rather than whey, in case that's relevant) mixed with a small amount of that green powder that is supposed to replace a whole day's vegetable intake, grass fed ground beef, some vegetable such as kale or broccoli to round out for the green powder because she doesn't get a whole day's worth, a serving of unsweetened full fat yogurt to mix with her liquid multi to make it more palatable, and maybe some eggs seasoned with turmeric and butter. This was her diet before she started fasting and yet she put on maybe five pounds and is stuck there. The fasting makes no difference.
The other question that bugs me is the issue of whether you will waste away from fasting. My husband fasted seven days while in the hospital with pancreatitis. He came home very wasted and has yet to regain his strength when doing his weights. He used to be phenomenally strong but now does good to bench over 125 pounds. He is working at it but it's very slow. The hospitalization was back in 2013. He is just now getting to where he can even try. He has diabetes and went back to lifting to help with his normalization efforts. I know Dr. Fung says that when he says fasting, he means up to 500 calories per day and DH's fast was total but to be weakened to this degree is strange to me.
I do the fasting despite these questions and I am still only losing about a pound a week.
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  #187   ^
Old Sat, Apr-30-16, 08:31
MickiSue MickiSue is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 8,006
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 189/148.6/145 Female 5' 5"
BF:36%/28%/25%
Progress: 92%
Location: Twin Cities, MN
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Ann, a fast d/t severe disease is different from a fast that is chosen, and can be supplemented with bone broth, etc.

Also, lying in a hospital bed can be severely detrimental to your ability to work out.

The fact that the imposed fast coincided with the loss of muscle is just that: coincidence, most likely. It's more probable that the pancreatic disease, which is very debilitating, led to the deconditioning. As well as his very slow improvement.

For your sister: was she overweight, normal weight, slightly underweight before she began this regimen? And, is she in her 40's 50's, 60's?

She doesn't seem to be eating a ton of calories. The goal (as I understand it) of IF is not so much to limit overall calories below sustenance levels, but to compress the window in which they're eaten.

Perhaps she's gone too low on calories, and her metabolism has slowed down?
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  #188   ^
Old Sat, Apr-30-16, 08:41
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 15,075
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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The gut bacteria/obesity connection has been shown by a number of research groups, only one group has been shamed (at least so far) for falsifying data. The retracted study is from 2014, the fecal transplant/obesity research begins long before then. You can't even tell by the retraction whether the real results failed to replicate earlier findings that fecal transplant from an obese animal caused weight gain, because the specific things that are listed as falsified are mostly about various hormone levels rather than weight gain.

One thing this does illustrate is that the idea of an unbiased researcher is just false. You don't have to be taking money from industry to have a horse in the race, there will generally be greater funding/career potential in some outcomes than in others.
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  #189   ^
Old Sun, May-01-16, 10:20
LauriSinge's Avatar
LauriSinge LauriSinge is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 59
 
Plan: Atkins '72
Stats: 265/165/145 Female 66 inches
BF:
Progress: 83%
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Hi, just watched section 4 of Fungs obesity videos, where he discusses how will fasting can reduce your insulin level. I cannot read the bottom of the chart to know whether this Improvement was seen at 4 weeks of alternate day fasting or 4 months. Anyone know? How long does it take for the benefit of alternate-day fasting to really affect your insulin levels?
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  #190   ^
Old Mon, May-02-16, 03:54
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
Posts: 13,370
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
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Hi Lauri, you can download the notes and slides to his lectures. If you mean the "fasting reduces plasma insulin" slide, it appears that is Day21&22. So last bar a fasting day, and 3 weeks after baseline, shows improvement (more than halving level)

Individual fasting serum insulin tests are highly variable, even for the same person. When I asked Dr Fung a while ago, he said he stopped using it except in one case. How long it would take you to reduce insulin depends, like BG, on many factors..how long IR, how high it was, how low in carbs, just the plain time factor involved (Butter Bob Briggs has a new video about Time)
Even knowing it may be be the best test, I still test mine about once a year since not an expensive test like Vit D. My oncologist bloodwork this year omitted it, but next year, with more studies on the insulin connection to cancer and I will insist it be added to my blood panel.
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  #191   ^
Old Tue, May-03-16, 20:00
LauriSinge's Avatar
LauriSinge LauriSinge is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 59
 
Plan: Atkins '72
Stats: 265/165/145 Female 66 inches
BF:
Progress: 83%
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Ok so I just finished my first 48 hour fast. Done 1)as a first step to a fasting plan, to lower insulin levels, and 2) to cut the "hold" that I feel like food has had on me lately.

But I feel very confused...is there any way to know what the best plan is? A one-meal-a-day, 23:1 plan? Fasting every other day? Fasting 2 days a week?

As I read, I *think* the one thing I'm understanding is that whatever plan you do, it's important not to end up with low calories every day, because that will lower your set point. I think I started doing that when I went to 20:4, just because I simply wasn't very hungry after fasting most of the day! So, am I right to think that I need to be sure I eat a decent amount of calories if I do the OMAD? or is it ok to have low calories on that one meal if you're not hungry, because you are fasting so much of the day?

My brain hurts!
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  #192   ^
Old Tue, May-03-16, 20:54
thud123's Avatar
thud123 thud123 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 7,422
 
Plan: P:E=>1 (Q3-22)
Stats: 168/100/82 Male 182cm
BF:
Progress: 79%
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nice work Lauri. I don't think there's a one size fits all for fasting. I would relax and try the different protocols you mentioned. Personally I found the 2 day (56hr) fast the least pleasant. It feels like I'm 'getting over the hump' in the morning and break fast. 3 day fasts (80hr) I like better and use them intermittently, usually ending on Saturday mornings. Longer for me get's to be a little tedious (up to 5 days for me) however I always feel terrific in the morning which is why I never end a fast in the evening. That's a personal preference.

Some people like Just_Jo and y0u have been eating one meal a day, every day, and that seems to work for them. If you look at what y0u eats you'll see a nice plate of protein and fats

My experience is limited here so perhaps more expert folks can help out but I'd hover around the protocols Dr. Fung has laid out for starters.

EDIT: After sleeping on this I thought of a couple things that might actually be helpful in addressing your question, "...is there any way to know what the best plan is?"

The things I tought of in no particular order are:

1) What is a frequency of fasting that works for your lifestyle and your loved ones. Fung has suggested that the "24hr" fast works well for this as you can eat one meal a day with your family.

2) How "metabolically challenged" are you? Loaded question right? Longer fasting periods or a more aggressive frequency may be in order.

3) What are your weight loss goals? How rapid do you need to get to those goals? This may determine length and frequency of fasts. I have no particular goal weight in mind so I'm just experimenting myself to see what works, working being, "do I feel better or worse after and during fasting"

4) How much body fat do you have and how tolerant is your body to fasting? I think you need to have a little extra body fat to fast. I suppose when you get to or near your ideal weight, longer fasting may take on different meaning i.e. ceremonial or "cleansing" or body reset or whatever the new new age catch phrase is at the time.

and lastly, I put weight back on after a fasting period. This is normal for me. The general outcome is weight going down over time. If you don't like to see the scale bounce up and get panicky or judgmental about it, fasting will provide an opportunity to work on those issue

Helpful? Who knows It looks like you are having fun learning, like me. Relax.

Last edited by thud123 : Wed, May-04-16 at 04:12.
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  #193   ^
Old Wed, May-04-16, 06:52
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 14,608
 
Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
Stats: 220/125/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 136%
Location: USA
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In addition, I would add that fasting should be easy.

My illness interfered with my ability to fast and so I just gutted it out. I don't think that's the right thing to do. Now that I'm better, I can see how much easier fasting is.

If it's easy to skip a particular meal, skip it. If going longer makes it easier, then long fasts once a week might be good. Right now, I'm having coffee in the morning and dinner at night with relative ease. So that's the right thing for me to do.
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  #194   ^
Old Fri, May-06-16, 04:50
boazy97 boazy97 is offline
New Member
Posts: 5
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 180/160/125 Female 61
BF:
Progress: 36%
Default Confused

I started IF last January. I am pre-diabetic. When I started my morning FBS were 112-125. I was able to get my FBS down to 98-105 during March and April.
I have lost only 9lbs but I keep trying though that is difficult in menopause. This past week my FBS has rose back to 113, 115, 117 even though I have not changed anything. I am doing 24 hour fast 3-4 times a week. Basically I eat just dinner and only lunch if really hungry which is rare except weekends are free. One thing that is constant is my BS readings at lunch to dinner are still lower than 4 months ago, they did not rise.
I am wondering if this DP coming back suddenly is a good thing? I have 50lbs to lose so will DP (Dawn Phen) be a normal thing on this journey?
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  #195   ^
Old Fri, May-06-16, 08:02
MickiSue MickiSue is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 8,006
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 189/148.6/145 Female 5' 5"
BF:36%/28%/25%
Progress: 92%
Location: Twin Cities, MN
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What level of carbs are you eating when you eat, boazy? I'm not familiar enough with the biochemistry of fasting to know for sure, but it seems to me that if you eat enough carbs at one sitting to spike insulin levels, that might have a rebound effect on BGs the next morning.

It's not just because you are menopausal that your weight loss has slowed. You are now down to 35 lbs left to lose, (CONGRATULATIONS!) and weight loss tends not to be as linear as we wish it were.

Even for people who started out with 100+ lbs to lose, at the end of the day, their averages are 1-2 lbs a week.

For me, a non-diabetic, at this stage, I seem to be more like 1-2 lbs a month.
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