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  #1   ^
Old Thu, Jul-25-19, 21:01
kathleen24 kathleen24 is offline
Monday came.
Posts: 4,408
Plan: my own
Stats: 275/130/155 Female 5'4"
BF:ummm . . . ?
Progress: 121%
Default Field/ground shift

Field/ground shift, for those who are not familiar with the phrase, refers to the change in perception that occurs when you are looking at the picture of the vase-no-it's-a-face-no-it's-a-vase, or the horse/beautiful woman, etc. Just a flutter of the eyelids and then you see the thing that was not visible before but now you can't unsee it.

Two things, first: signing on here today made me remember all the years I lurked around the pre-maintenance/maintenance forum with my nose pressed up against the window. How wonderful and amazing to walk in the front door, and yell, "Hi, I'm home, where is everybody?"

Second, I've been wanting to come on here and ask this question of those of you who have shifted a massive (you decide what constitutes massive) amount of weight to get here, and are in maintenance mode now. All and everyone welcome to pitch in on this thread and share their thoughts on this issue, btw. But my question for the people who have been living for at least a bit at their goal weight:
Is there anything for which you would give this up? Say, any amount of money, any material thing that you would take if it it meant having to go back to the way you were before and the struggle that entailed?

For me, I cannot think of anything that would persuade me to give this up, unless in some unlikely scenario the health or well-being of others was somehow concerned. And I can't go there for this mind-game, so I won't.
I expect that most people I've seen around here would feel the same way--not for a million dollars would I go back to living that way again.

Yet for those of us that slip and fall and keep on falling--and most of us have had those falls on the long road to here, at some point in the journey--it didn't take a million dollars. It started with a little too much cheese and then some corn chips because that's not wheat, right?, and then some extra thises and thats and dark chocolate because that's good for you, right?, and then one day it's a bowl of ice cream and we crash and burn and go face down in the food.

Only that was then and this is now.

But thinking about this gave me pause. It's like the very old and very sexist and very not-funny joke:
"Would you have sex with me for a million dollars?"
"Why, sir, I am flattered . . . "
"Would you do it for ten dollars?"
"What do you take me for?"
"We've already established that, now we're just haggling about the price."

Well, this is kind of a backwards version of the same thing. If we are NOT willing to give up living like this for a million dollars, why would we be willing to do it for some extra cheese, some corn chips, and a bowl of ice cream?
At least hold out for the million dollars . . .
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  #2   ^
Old Tue, Aug-20-19, 12:27
Mycie14's Avatar
Mycie14 Mycie14 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 703
Plan: Dr. Bernstein, IF
Stats: 200/155/155 Female 68
Progress: 100%
Location: Southern California


I just saw this. I really like the way you put this into perspective: we wouldn't be willing to sacrifice our improved health/weight loss for money (or at least not chump change!), but we have been willing to do it for just a little desert or a few chips.

I hit maintenance in 2015 after years and years of unsuccessful dieting. I thought I'd never go back to the way I was before. While I did not totally abandon the low carb ways which brought success, I did indeed sacrifice some of my health gains and weight loss for some stupid carbs here and there.

As I journey back towards maintenance, I am working on keeping focused on what I'm actually trading for mere bits of food.
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  #3   ^
Old Tue, Aug-20-19, 21:54
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 13,619
Plan: atkins
Stats: 255/214/153 Female 5'8"
Progress: 40%
Location: Massachusetts

Nose pressed against the glass.....
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  #4   ^
Old Wed, Aug-21-19, 01:04
Grav Grav is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,231
Plan: Banting
Stats: 302/187/187 Male 175cm
Progress: 100%
Location: New Zealand

Interesting discussion, surprised it hasn't taken off before now.

I've consciously dabbled in a few things during my maintenance years purely for experimental purposes, to see if I can tolerate them or not. If I can then they become part of the routine, if I can't then they don't. But to deliberately veer away from low carb altogether is another matter entirely.

I think my answer would depend on a few parameters. The shorter the term of the change, and the less the extent of the change (i.e. moderate carb over high carb), the more likely I'd be to consider it, I suppose. I wouldn't want to be the first to name a figure though, someone would have to come to me with a specific offer with specific conditions, and even then I imagine we'd have to negotiate. It's a hard one to imagine.

For a permanent change though, to quit low carb completely? The only reason I can think of to do that, would be if I found another WOE that worked even better.
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  #5   ^
Old Wed, Aug-21-19, 07:01
bluesinger's Avatar
bluesinger bluesinger is offline
Posts: 4,443
Plan: TheraKeto~Atkins72
Stats: 170/137/140 Female 62 inches
Progress: 110%
Location: Nevada Desert, USA

I started a thread here: Maintaining: First Time Ever, so I can track THAT beginning. I was so proud. Sat, Oct-21-17. I actually started out trying to maintain at my lowest weight (135), but found that untenable. This body is now in its 75th year, so a higher BMI is considered better for maintaining my status as a Super-ager.

Before I answer the question (and I will answer honestly) I beg you to remember that I used to be a working chef. I LOVE food, experimenting with food, rolling around in food, if you will. I lived in France and in Germany and have sampled really good regional foods. In Los Angeles, I've eaten in sampling restaurants of some of the best chefs in the world and been humbled by just how good food can be.

Now for the answer:
Yes, if I were diagnosed with a crippling disease which would kill me soon, I would happily resort to eating excellent carbs in all forms.

That is my price. Imminent death.
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  #6   ^
Old Wed, Aug-21-19, 08:48
khrussva's Avatar
khrussva khrussva is offline
Posts: 7,851
Plan: My own - < 30 net carbs
Stats: 440/219/210 Male 5' 11"
BF:Energy Unleashed
Progress: 96%
Location: Central Virginia - USA

Very nice post, Kathleen. That's an interesting topic and question.

Three years ago this month I was at my lowest weight on this journey - 190 pounds. After decades of obesity I felt like a skinny old man -- not all that comfortable in my own (loose) skin. The reality of it had not quite sunk in. Loosening up a bit on the rules that got me to that weight my first year of maintenance turned into a slow and steady climb back up to my original goal weight of 210 pounds. Since then I've been doing sort of a mini rollercoaster LCHF diet -- tightening up the diet to lose a few pounds only to get less attentive again and put some pounds back on. So maintenance has been a bumpy ride, bouncing up and down between 200 and 220 pounds.

The problem isn't the occasional slip up with carb loaded junk like a cookie, cake, pizza or French fries. I truly have accepted that those are not foods I cannot eat. They are the foods that broke my system and if I let them back into my diet all the success that I have had will be flushed down the toilet. My LCHF WOE is a lifestyle for life. I stay out of the junk and these days I'm rarely even tempted by it. But as you pointed out in your post, the problems starts with too much cheese. Well, not only cheese but also other OP foods that should be consumed in moderation or at least not be in my everyday food rotation. BP coffee, fat bombs, and LC cheesecake are more examples. Today if I eat at the same levels that I did the first few months of my LCHF journey I will gain weight. I can't eat that much anymore. Unfortunately my "Off Switch" is still unreliable. It breaks completely when I eat excessive carbs. Finding my boundaries has made that clear. I can't climb very high up the Atkins Carb Ladder. Only when I am strictly keeping the carbs very low will I make the right eating decisions consistently. Even eating healthy, whole, LCHF foods everyday my satiety cues cannot be trusted. I've come to accept that, too. I need to know when I've had enough and walk away from the plate when I've reached my limit. I do a much better job of that when I'm eating keto.

One other issue of note has been my high cholesterol and the resulting battle with my doctor over taking a statin. I am one of the select few who have extremely high LDL cholesterol eating a VLC/Keto diet. My doctor wants my LDL-C below 120. Eating Keto (<25 net carbs) my LDL-C usually exceeds 250. I've found that when I add back more carbs (say 50 to 60 net) my LDL will fall below 110. But eating that many carbs puts me in weight creep mode. In 2017 I had a CAC calcium scan and found that I had significant heart disease. My score was in the 91st percentile for my age - first in line for a heart attack. With that result my doctor wrote a statin prescription whether I wanted it or not. I refused to take it. And over the past 2 years I've altered between Keto and that 50 carb diet - depending on whether I'm focusing on weight loss or my LDL. This has put quite a strain on my doctor/patient relationship - especially on visits where my LDL is double what my doctor wants it to be. A few months ago I finally had my first follow-up CAC calcium scan. In the past 2 years the volume of calcium in my arteries has dropped by 54% (2017 score of 347 dropped to 158). That result put me at ease with my high cholesterol issue. I have some weight to lose, so I've decided to do keto level carbs again for the foreseeable future.

To answer your specific question, there is really nothing that I can think of that would lure me back to my old S.A.D. WOE. I've gotten quite used to the new 'fit and active' me. There is no going back. But if I knew that the world was soon coming to an end would I dabble in some foods that I consider off plan? Yes - more than likely. And if I were the main character in The Life of Pi -- adrift at sea in the lifeboat along with a tiger and a large box of crackers -- yes, I would eat the crackers. But I'd think really hard about how I might eat that tiger first.

Last edited by khrussva : Wed, Aug-21-19 at 09:14.
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  #7   ^
Old Sat, Aug-24-19, 13:22
amergin's Avatar
amergin amergin is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 277
Plan: Low carb, suff. protein
Stats: 115/103/95 Male 191cm
Progress: 60%
Location: dublin

Originally Posted by khrussva

One other issue of note has been my high cholesterol and the resulting battle with my doctor over taking a statin. I am one of the select few who have extremely high LDL cholesterol eating a VLC/Keto diet. My doctor wants my LDL-C below 120. Eating Keto (<25 net carbs) my LDL-C usually exceeds 250. I've found that when I add back more carbs (say 50 to 60 net) my LDL will fall below 110. But eating that many carbs puts me in weight creep mode. .......
......... This has put quite a strain on my doctor/patient relationship - especially on visits where my LDL is double what my doctor wants it to be.

Khrussva, Your lines above echo my own dealings with my most recent doc. (My previous doc has retired but was never very keen on the "guidance" on cholesterol numbers. He told me once the alarm limit was 7mmol when he started so he was never very worried by my occasional expeditions above 6mmol. Especially when my HDL and ratios were good.)
However the new guy is a numbers man so was reaching for the statins once i strayed over 6.
Luckily I then discovered Dave Feldman's protocol to "fix" the numbers. I tried it out on a private walk-in cholesterol test at a pharmacists and it worked, so I booked another official test through the doctor.
For three days I lived on as much full cream and boiled potatoes as I could stomach, then the 12 hour fast and the test.
The results were total cholesterol < 6 and a comment from my doc that there was no need for follow-up.
Immediately after the test I went back to full low-carb, so my chol was probably back at 6+ by the time my results were in.
I was tempted to tell all this to my doc and that his learned understanding of blood lipids was a total crock. But I said nought. My objective is to stay statin-free, and that has been achieved.

Would you consider trying the same to get your doc off your back?
The three day feed-up should be short enough to not cause a reversal of your progress to date.
It is a leap in the dark the first time and feels completely counter-intuitive so if you can get an anonymous try-out test, before one from the doc, it can reassure.
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  #8   ^
Old Sat, Aug-24-19, 19:38
bluesinger's Avatar
bluesinger bluesinger is offline
Posts: 4,443
Plan: TheraKeto~Atkins72
Stats: 170/137/140 Female 62 inches
Progress: 110%
Location: Nevada Desert, USA

I also followed the Feldman Protocol before my last lipids test. My numbers weren't perfect, but my ratios are perfect. Doctor still complained but she knows me pretty well and that I won't take statins. I'll have to eat more fat next time.
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  #9   ^
Old Sun, Sep-08-19, 13:53
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 14,041
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario

I hope I would give this up for something that worked better for me. But I'm not actively looking for it, I'm happy here.

The way I was before involved a lot more bipolar/schizophrenic lapses and physical pain etc., so the actual results, no I wouldn't trade. Anyways monkey's paw type deals never work out.
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  #10   ^
Old Sun, Sep-08-19, 14:23
Bob-a-rama's Avatar
Bob-a-rama Bob-a-rama is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,532
Plan: Keto (Atkins Induction)
Stats: 230/175/185 Male 5' 11"
Progress: 122%
Location: Florida

Maintaining? I have to stay on "induction" in Atkins' terms or gain.

I've been low carb for such a long time that it's easy to say "No" to the things that taste good but aren't good for me.

I'll hold out for the cool mil

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