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  #1276   ^
Old Mon, Aug-12-19, 11:54
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Posts: 13,761
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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I have seen intermittent fasting speed healing in a couple of studies. One involved heart surgery in rats, the rats fasting every other day healed faster. Maybe something to do with growth hormone, but the repeating theme where stem cells, sattelite cells, immune cells, basically not yet fully differentiated cells involved in regeneration are strengthened seems obviously relevant here. All very important to healing.
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  #1277   ^
Old Mon, Aug-12-19, 12:27
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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Posts: 12,372
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 255/214/153 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 40%
Location: Massachusetts
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Thanks T.....more to chew on.
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  #1278   ^
Old Mon, Aug-12-19, 18:08
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 3,125
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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Lots to learn with the hopes for the funding for unbiased studies to better understand how the metabolism is impacted positively and negatively from fasting and fast mimicking. Learning more about how to achieve positive health results from autophagy and when and under what conditions it becomes optimal is really the next set of information I'd like to have confirmed. IF is easy for me to adhere to, LC is easy for me to adhere to, fast-mimicking? It may be similar, but I would like to see the differences between a control group, a pure calorie restricted group, a fasting group, and a fat mimicking group for the basis of comparison. Tough to get these studies funded, as I don't believe Coca Cola, ADM, or General Foods are interested in supporting this type of research.
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  #1279   ^
Old Mon, Aug-12-19, 18:52
bluesinger's Avatar
bluesinger bluesinger is offline
Posts: 4,203
 
Plan: Atkins 72~Induction
Stats: 170/140/140 Female 62 inches
BF:24%
Progress: 100%
Location: Nevada Desert, USA
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The lack of controlled human testing is why I believe sharing our personal n=1 experiences are so important. The way any and all you mentioned (GRB5111) react inside my 74+ female body is probably totally different from the way a young male body will react to exactly the same protocols. My data may be useful to women in my age group. Maybe not, since one size doesn't fit all. Too many variables.
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  #1280   ^
Old Mon, Aug-12-19, 19:55
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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Posts: 12,372
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 255/214/153 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 40%
Location: Massachusetts
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Even when the studies get done, it will be years maybe decades before info reaches the medical doctors; I depend on the n=1 to hear new ideas, repeat ideas and the professionals like dr fung that put info out on the internet for all. Like all of us, my info comes from online, not my doctor.
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  #1281   ^
Old Mon, Aug-12-19, 23:40
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 3,125
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesinger
The lack of controlled human testing is why I believe sharing our personal n=1 experiences are so important. The way any and all you mentioned (GRB5111) react inside my 74+ female body is probably totally different from the way a young male body will react to exactly the same protocols. My data may be useful to women in my age group. Maybe not, since one size doesn't fit all. Too many variables.

Agree that for many us, nothing can replace what we learn through our n=1 experiences. My n=1 experiences are also inspired by research supporting certain approaches. That's how I learned the method to achieve ketosis. Based on my n=1, being in ketosis or burning fat as primary fuel is very good for me. From past experiences of IFs lasting for 4 days, I felt great, energetic, clear-headed. There's no doubt that I reaped the benefits of autophagy, and likely had higher levels of HGH, and BDNF. I'm trying to learn more, and one of the things I'd like to learn is how long does my IF have to be to get benefits from autophagy. Just something else to help with my n=1s. Yes, if I had done this stuff at age 21, I probably would have had a different experience.
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  #1282   ^
Old Fri, Aug-23-19, 07:14
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Posts: 13,761
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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https://www.sciencedaily.com/releas...90822113401.htm

One of the repeating themes looking at fasting is regeneration of various stem/progenitor type cell pools. Apparently stemness is a word.

Remember that thing where a ketogenic diet was going to devastate our gut lining, our gut bacteria "weren't that into us," etc.?


Quote:
Certain metabolites linked to stem cell function in the intestine

MIT biologists have discovered an unexpected effect of a ketogenic, or fat-rich, diet: They showed that high levels of ketone bodies, molecules produced by the breakdown of fat, help the intestine to maintain a large pool of adult stem cells, which are crucial for keeping the intestinal lining healthy.

Also--from a diabetes/insulin resistance angle, leaky gut/fatty liver/insulin resistance/type II seem to go together.

The researchers also found that intestinal stem cells produce unusually high levels of ketone bodies even in the absence of a high-fat diet. These ketone bodies activate a well-known signaling pathway called Notch, which has previously been shown to help regulate stem cell differentiation.

"Ketone bodies are one of the first examples of how a metabolite instructs stem cell fate in the intestine," says Omer Yilmaz, the Eisen and Chang Career Development Associate Professor of Biology and a member of MIT's Koch Institute for Integrative Cancer Research. "These ketone bodies, which are normally thought to play a critical role in energy maintenance during times of nutritional stress, engage the Notch pathway to enhance stem cell function. Changes in ketone body levels in different nutritional states or diets enable stem cells to adapt to different physiologies."

In a study of mice, the researchers found that a ketogenic diet gave intestinal stem cells a regenerative boost that made them better able to recover from damage to the intestinal lining, compared to the stem cells of mice on a regular diet.

Yilmaz is the senior author of the study, which appears in the Aug. 22 issue of Cell. MIT postdoc Chia-Wei Cheng is the paper's lead author.

An unexpected role

Adult stem cells, which can differentiate into many different cell types, are found in tissues throughout the body. These stem cells are particularly important in the intestine because the intestinal lining is replaced every few days. Yilmaz' lab has previously shown that fasting enhances stem cell function in aged mice, and that a high-fat diet can stimulate rapid growth of stem cell populations in the intestine.

In this study, the research team wanted to study the possible role of metabolism in the function of intestinal stem cells. By analyzing gene expression data, Cheng discovered that several enzymes involved in the production of ketone bodies are more abundant in intestinal stem cells than in other types of cells.

When a very high-fat diet is consumed, cells use these enzymes to break down fat into ketone bodies, which the body can use for fuel in the absence of carbohydrates. However, because these enzymes are so active in intestinal stem cells, these cells have unusually high ketone body levels even when a normal diet is consumed.

To their surprise, the researchers found that the ketones stimulate the Notch signaling pathway, which is known to be critical for regulating stem cell functions such as regenerating damaged tissue.

"Intestinal stem cells can generate ketone bodies by themselves, and use them to sustain their own stemness through fine-tuning a hardwired developmental pathway that controls cell lineage and fate," Cheng says.

In mice, the researchers showed that a ketogenic diet enhanced this effect, and mice on such a diet were better able to regenerate new intestinal tissue. When the researchers fed the mice a high-sugar diet, they saw the opposite effect: Ketone production and stem cell function both declined.

Stem cell function

The study helps to answer some questions raised by Yilmaz' previous work showing that both fasting and high-fat diets enhance intestinal stem cell function. The new findings suggest that stimulating ketogenesis through any kind of diet that limits carbohydrate intake helps promote stem cell proliferation.

"Ketone bodies become highly induced in the intestine during periods of food deprivation and play an important role in the process of preserving and enhancing stem cell activity," Yilmaz says. "When food isn't readily available, it might be that the intestine needs to preserve stem cell function so that when nutrients become replete, you have a pool of very active stem cells that can go on to repopulate the cells of the intestine."

The findings suggest that a ketogenic diet, which would drive ketone body production in the intestine, might be helpful for repairing damage to the intestinal lining, which can occur in cancer patients receiving radiation or chemotherapy treatments, Yilmaz says.

The researchers now plan to study whether adult stem cells in other types of tissue use ketone bodies to regulate their function. Another key question is whether ketone-induced stem cell activity could be linked to cancer development, because there is evidence that some tumors in the intestines and other tissues arise from stem cells.

"If an intervention drives stem cell proliferation, a population of cells that serve as the origin of some tumors, could such an intervention possibly elevate cancer risk? That's something we want to understand," Yilmaz says. "What role do these ketone bodies play in the early steps of tumor formation, and can driving this pathway too much, either through diet or small molecule mimetics, impact cancer formation? We just don't know the answer to those questions."
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  #1283   ^
Old Fri, Aug-23-19, 07:37
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 13,761
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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I guess there's that last bit about cancer for people to latch on to.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5650369/

Quote:
Fasting inhibits colorectal cancer growth by reducing M2 polarization of tumor-associated macrophages


If we're worried about elevated stemness-->cancer, the people most likely to suffer an increased cancer burden from this would be the very young, least likely the very old... I think this is a fairly specific problem that might come up. But in general, a more robust immune system, healthier mitochondria--not stem, but sort of stemmy if you have a healthier but smaller pool of mitochondria after a fast, that then increases in population. Mouse longevity studies with fasting will be having these effects on stem cell populations. Mouse longevity studies are largely anti-cancer studies, since mice don't normally do much in the way of cardiovascular disease unless they're genetically altered in some way.
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  #1284   ^
Old Tue, Sep-03-19, 05:59
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
To Good Health!
Posts: 11,220
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
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You know how I often raved about the thoroughness and organization of the OCN FB page files? Bummer:

Quote:
For legal and copyright reasons, the OCN files are no longer available.
Please refer to the books The Obesity Code, The Diabetes Code, The Complete Guide to Fasting
and The Longevity Solution.
Many of the writings of Dr. Fung, Megan Ramos and the IDM Coaches can be found on the IDM
blog at www.idmprogram.com/blog
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  #1285   ^
Old Tue, Sep-03-19, 07:14
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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Posts: 12,372
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 255/214/153 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 40%
Location: Massachusetts
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Still absorbing Teasers posts.....

Quote:
The findings suggest that a ketogenic diet, which would drive ketone body production in the intestine, might be helpful for repairing damage to the intestinal lining, which can occur in cancer patients receiving radiation or chemotherapy treatments, Yilmaz says.


Regarding this point, after my mother received chemo abd radiation for her SECOND bout of breast cancer, her fingernails stopped growing. For over a year!!!

Makes me ask how the whole body is affected by such treatment??
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  #1286   ^
Old Tue, Sep-03-19, 11:38
bluesinger's Avatar
bluesinger bluesinger is offline
Posts: 4,203
 
Plan: Atkins 72~Induction
Stats: 170/140/140 Female 62 inches
BF:24%
Progress: 100%
Location: Nevada Desert, USA
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Chemo is poison. I've personally seen people die because of it, die despite it, and survive because of it. Whether or not to have it is a very personal choice.
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  #1287   ^
Old Tue, Sep-03-19, 12:42
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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Posts: 12,372
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 255/214/153 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 40%
Location: Massachusetts
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Yes, a very personal choice. Unfortinately other choices are not forthcoming. Patients are in the dark about options because not every cancer doctor is up to date.

ie. My mother was not told about fasting to enhance the treatment effect.

Ie My mother did a new protocol, cancer undetectable, then standard treatment, all on advice of her doctor.

She searches no further than her idols.
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  #1288   ^
Old Fri, Sep-27-19, 11:21
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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Posts: 12,372
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 255/214/153 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 40%
Location: Massachusetts
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Dr Fung--- delving into insulin and cancer and PCOS etc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQsMRjAwcFo
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  #1289   ^
Old Wed, Oct-02-19, 09:13
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Posts: 13,761
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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https://www.sciencedaily.com/releas...90930114546.htm

Quote:
Type 2 diabetes remission possible with 'achievable' weight loss

People who achieve weight loss of 10% or more in the first five years following diagnosis with type 2 diabetes have the greatest chance of seeing their disease go into remission, according to a study led by the University of Cambridge.

The findings suggest that it is possible to recover from the disease without intensive lifestyle interventions or extreme calorie restrictions.

Type 2 diabetes affects 400 million people worldwide and increases the risk of heart disease, stroke, blindness and amputations. While the disease can be managed through a combination of positive lifestyle changes and medication, it is also possible for the high blood glucose levels that define diabetes to return to normal -- through significant calorie restriction and weight loss. An intensive low-calorie diet involving a total daily intake of 700 calories (less than one cheeseburger) for 8 weeks has been associated with remission in almost nine out of ten people with recently diagnosed diabetes and in a half of people with longstanding disease.

However, there is little evidence to show whether the same effect can be achieved by people undergoing less intensive interventions, which are more feasible and potentially scalable to the wider population. To answer this question, a team led by researchers at the University of Cambridge studied data from the ADDITION-Cambridge trial, a prospective cohort study of 867 people with newly diagnosed diabetes aged 40 and 69 years recruited from general practices in the eastern region.

The research was funded by Wellcome, the Medical Research Council and the National Institute for Health Research.

The researchers found that 257 participants (30%) participants were in remission at five-year follow-up. People who achieved weight loss of 10% or more within the first five years after diagnosis were more than twice as likely to go into remission compared to people who maintained the same weight.

"We've known for some time now that it's possible to send diabetes into remission using fairly drastic measures such as intensive weight loss programmes and extreme calorie restriction," says Dr Hajira Dambha-Miller from the Department of Public Health and Primary Care.

"These interventions can be very challenging to individuals and difficult to achieve. But, our results suggest that it may be possible to get rid of diabetes, for at least five years, with a more modest weight loss of 10%. This will be more motivating and hence more achievable for many people."

Senior author Professor Simon Griffin of the MRC Epidemiology Unit added: "This reinforces the importance of managing one's weight, which can be achieved through changes in diet and increasing physical activity. Type 2 diabetes, while a chronic disease, can lead to significant complications, but as our study shows, can be controlled and even reversed."



So you can get a third of the effectiveness with a weaker approach... but I'd like to see how this breaks down. If you look at "personal fat threshold"--some people get in trouble at ten percent overweight, some at fifty or a hundred--diabetes-wise. If a three hundred pound person lost 30 pounds, that's a lot of potential fat storage freed up compared to what they're likely to be eating in a day. Or if a 150 pound person lost 15 pounds--that might bring them down to very low body fat levels, that's likely bringing them well below that personal fat threshold.

But okay--a person reaching the personal fat threshold where subcutaneous fat starts to be resistant to further growth, and ectopic fat depots (kidney, liver, etc) start to develop hasn't necessarily stopped growing their subcutaneous fat, it's just sort of slowed down. So for one person, that ten percent fat loss could bring them back under that threshold--but not for another person.


Quote:
"These interventions can be very challenging to individuals and difficult to achieve. But, our results suggest that it may be possible to get rid of diabetes, for at least five years, with a more modest weight loss of 10%. This will be more motivating and hence more achievable for many people."


Maybe... but it might be less motivating for a lot of people. "Do this, and a third of you will be successful..." or "do this and 90 percent will be successful." Do you feel lucky?

Quote:
Our findings should inform discussions with people who have newly diagnosed Type 2 diabetes as motivation towards remission of the disease without restrictive and sometimes unachievable calorie restrictions.


https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi....1111/dme.14122

"Restrictive." "Unachievable." I think--letting people know that they don't have to go all in for some benefit is reasonable. Like--just because somebody can't bring themself to stop smoking entirely, that doesn't mean cutting smoking in half won't have some benefit. You shouldn't discourage somebody from doing some, it's not all or nothing. But that doesn't mean you should describe cutting out smoking entirely in negative terms. Also--I think people should have a little respect for what their patients might be capable of. Don't read to them from the LIttle Engine that Can't at every opportunity.

In the paper itself--HbA1c actually went down more in the non-remission group--it's just that they started higher than the remission group. So--starting closer to the finish line to start with helped people win the race.
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  #1290   ^
Old Wed, Oct-02-19, 10:48
CityGirl8 CityGirl8 is offline
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Posts: 856
 
Plan: Protein Power, IF
Stats: 238/204/145 Female 5'8"
BF:53.75%/46.6%/25%
Progress: 37%
Location: PNW
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
Maybe... but it might be less motivating for a lot of people. "Do this, and a third of you will be successful..." or "do this and 90 percent will be successful." Do you feel lucky?
I feel more like that's saying "30% of people will only need to lose 10% of their weight to make a significant change. You might be one of those people. But you might be one of the 70% who is not and after losing 10%, you might need to continue to make changes. So start with the 10% and see where you get."

My bigger question is really whether the cause and effect logic is holding up here. My understanding from the science is that obesity doesn't cause T2D, rather that T2D causes obesity. So if you control glucose and insulin and begin to heal T2D then you'll lose weight.

So, all these people who think their diabetes is getting better because they lost 10% of their body weight, maybe it's really that they're lost weight because their diabetes is better.
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