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  #16   ^
Old Tue, Mar-03-15, 18:23
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
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Unlike a lot of the other alternatives, ketogenic diet has been studied in brain cancer and found to be a viable alternative:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17313687

The point of my title was that there's evidence for a ketogenic diet having a positive effect. There isn't any for the Gerson diet.
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  #17   ^
Old Tue, Mar-03-15, 18:25
M Levac M Levac is offline
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Plan: VLC, mostly meat
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Actually, the idea of KD to fight cancer has recently changed. It's now understood that insulin signaling is a primary effect rather than just glucose-vs-ketones. We discussed this here:

http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=447278
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  #18   ^
Old Tue, Mar-03-15, 18:42
M Levac M Levac is offline
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Plan: VLC, mostly meat
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Quote:
In the end, as with many hyped cancer cures, the ketogenic diet might be helpful for some tumors and almost certainly won’t be helpful for others.

But detrimental for none.

The hypothesis about KD and cancer isn't just that it fights cancer, it's also that it returns us to good health, just as it does when we don't have cancer. So even if there's no direct effect against cancer, there's certainly a direct effect on the rest of the body.

It's possible doc Gorski refers to that KD they developed and prescribe and it's so hard to stick to cuz it's really really really not that good. Well, KD can also refer to a regular diet that is just totally devoid of carbs. We can eat that easy, if we can eat that and carbs easy.
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  #19   ^
Old Tue, Mar-03-15, 22:04
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GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
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Plan: Very LC, Higher Protein
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While it's still in the infancy stage, KD does have some positive results when used with traditional care. I've been reading Seyfried and his many proteges, one of whom, Adrienne Scheck, is featured in the following video. I found it fascinating, and if they could get around the standards of care protocol that functions as the gatekeeper for cancer treatment, it might get even more interesting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3VQlWWDtiw
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  #20   ^
Old Wed, Mar-04-15, 07:34
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
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Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
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I've always seen a major barrier to low carb coming from a totally unscientific point of view: the perceived virtue of different food choices.

Fruit and vegetables: good! Meat: bad! Watery, no-fat, salad dressing: good! Full fat blue cheese salad dressing: bad! Dry whole grain bread: virtuous! Pat of butter: indulgent!

And so forth.

It's totally unscientific, this notion that what the body wants, what gives it pleasure, is wrong. The body prefers the steak with a pat of butter because it's better for the body. We've been shaped by evolution to do what gives us pleasure, because that encourages us to eat healthy things, reproduce, and cooperate with our fellow humans.

And that's why so many "health" regimens turn into these body-subduing mortification rituals. Look at Pritikin. But not for long... he fell into a deep depression and took his own life, his regimen of very low fat did not help his cancer, and talk about a diet that's hard to stick to.
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  #21   ^
Old Wed, Mar-04-15, 09:12
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Lulumae Lulumae is offline
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Plan: Atkins, sort of
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I read up a bit on the case of Jessica A. on a site called Science Based Medicine. http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org...jess-ainscough/
It's certainly a sad story. Why all that stuff would help you beat cancer is hard to fathom.
Anecdotally, I made contact with an old friend about 18 months ago whom I hadn't seen for many, many years. He had had a lung out to treat lung cancer and had recently learned that he had a brain tumour. I suggested a ketogenic diet and he went and discussed it with his oncologist, who had no objection, so he tried it. A few weeks later he died. I guess it was too late, supposing it would ever have helped.
I am sure anyone suffering from cancer is anxious to find non invasive, non-mutilating and non-toxic ways to fight it and we can only hope that research comes up with something less scary than current protocols one day soon.
I follow Terry Wahl's communications about her paleo-based diet as a way of helping to combat the symptoms of MS and it is hard not to be impressed. The impact of a low carb diet on general health seems hard to deny.
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  #22   ^
Old Wed, Mar-04-15, 09:16
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bkloots bkloots is offline
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Plan: LC--Atkins
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Quote:
Look at Pritikin.
Once upon a time, I had a beloved pastor. He had a heart attack in his 50s, and thereafter was prescribed a Pritikin diet. He looked like a corpse for the next several years, and then died of another heart attack. It's possible his family thinks he didn't do the diet correctly. I think the diet killed him. One of his daughters must be following it still--because she looks like a corpse! But her heart must be in better shape to begin with, because she isn't dead yet.

I always think of him when I hear mention of Pritikin. I may be all wrong, but I can't help being mad about it.
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  #23   ^
Old Wed, Mar-04-15, 09:17
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Whofan Whofan is offline
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When I lived in West Palm Beach I had a friend who LOVED the Hippocrates Institute. It was a live-in facility but you were allowed to go there for lunch and lectures on Saturdays, as I recall. I went with her once and sat in the dining room with terribly frail, sick people all eating raw vegetables and drinking wheatgrass. She absolutely swore by this place and told me stories of people who were carried in on stretchers but were able to walk out on their own after a few weeks of raw food and colonics.

At the time I was a vegan and open-minded to this way of thinking but not any more. I do think the Institute believes in their approach and have had some success. Certainly a diet of raw organic vegetables would help people who otherwise eat the SAD and Reese's Peanut Butter Cups.

Werebear: I too admire you for standing up to the medical profession. I worry about being browbeaten by them at a time when one is already emotionally and physically depleted. So glad that it ended well for you.
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  #24   ^
Old Wed, Mar-04-15, 09:22
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teaser teaser is offline
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Plan: mostly milkfat
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I'm sorry about your friend.

That's the thing, whether a diet approach is effective or not, sometimes it's just too late.

Thomas Seyfried and D'Agostino have both looked at a raw vegan approach, I think it was the Hippocrates Institute--and said they saw real survival benefits. I don't think that's the Gerson Therapy though. Dr. Seyfried puts it down to calorie restriction. But it's possible to do a fairly low-carbohydrate, vegan diet with lots of green veggies, nuts, coconut, cocoa, etc. Even the lack of animal protein contributes, since both protein and carbohydrate are factors in glucose and insulin production. That might reduce the amount of calorie restriction necessary to see a benefit.
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  #25   ^
Old Wed, Mar-04-15, 09:37
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WereBear WereBear is offline
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Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
That's the thing, whether a diet approach is effective or not, sometimes it's just too late.


That's a very good point: we should really be talking about prevention, ideally. Because I've been eating low carb for a dozen years now, kept all my weight off except for that last 10-20 pounds that keeps bouncing around, and I once thought that made me bulletproof.

Except I've been dealing with a very severe illness (which is finally improving over the last six months) and I believe it had its roots in the decades of poor nutrition and dieting attempts that has been my life between childhood and low carb.

The good news, though, is that I'm convinced that without low carb, I'd be far worse off. And I believe that goes for everyone here who is trying to improve their health with their dietary choices.
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  #26   ^
Old Wed, Mar-04-15, 09:48
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Oldbird Oldbird is offline
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Plan: Low carb.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JLx
As some one who has survived not just a cancer scare but a cancer certainty, (endometrial, Stage III) I object to anyone saying what someone else "should" have done.

I hope to unholy hell that if I subsequently die from recurrent cancer, people here aren't talking about me later: "Wasn't she the one who talked about eating fruit, even bananas? What an idiot. She should have been zero carb."

While meanwhile, in another community, perhaps they'd be saying, "Did she ever go to church? She should have been more positive and praying more''.

Or how about, "She was too fat most of her life. Why didn't she just eat less and move more"?

Engaging in hypotheticals about one's own choices and how cancer curative they would hypothetically be may be reassuring, but it's just whistling past the graveyard, imo.

In the link posted on Science Based Medicine, the gist was that Jessica Ainscough's best bet for survival was early radical, disfiguring surgery that the surgeon commenting admitted he himself would have thought twice about.

She put her faith in her body's ability to heal itself with an influx of nutrients and other less straightforward but seemingly harmless interventions, not such an unpromising choice, imo, since cancer seems so mysterious and has been known to lend itself to spontaneous remission. One of the first books I read when I was diagnosed was Gilda Radner's. She did the same thing at the end, just as sadly and ineffectively.

In another discussion on Science Based Medicine, btw, that same surgeon would almost certainly not agree that she "should have gone ketogenic" instead.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org...versus-science/

Ketogenic diet does not “beat chemo for almost all cancers”



I had the recommended treatment: surgery, radiation and chemotherapy. The former was certainly necessary as I was bleeding profusely. The latter two may have been "overkill" but who can say? Anyway, so far, so good; 3 years.
Excellent post JLx, may I wish you well.

I count my many blessings.
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  #27   ^
Old Wed, Mar-04-15, 10:16
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GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
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Plan: Very LC, Higher Protein
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Location: Herndon, VA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JLx
As some one who has survived not just a cancer scare but a cancer certainty, (endometrial, Stage III) I object to anyone saying what someone else "should" have done.

I hope to unholy hell that if I subsequently die from recurrent cancer, people here aren't talking about me later: "Wasn't she the one who talked about eating fruit, even bananas? What an idiot. She should have been zero carb."

While meanwhile, in another community, perhaps they'd be saying, "Did she ever go to church? She should have been more positive and praying more''.

Or how about, "She was too fat most of her life. Why didn't she just eat less and move more"?

Engaging in hypotheticals about one's own choices and how cancer curative they would hypothetically be may be reassuring, but it's just whistling past the graveyard, imo.

In the link posted on Science Based Medicine, the gist was that Jessica Ainscough's best bet for survival was early radical, disfiguring surgery that the surgeon commenting admitted he himself would have thought twice about.

She put her faith in her body's ability to heal itself with an influx of nutrients and other less straightforward but seemingly harmless interventions, not such an unpromising choice, imo, since cancer seems so mysterious and has been known to lend itself to spontaneous remission. One of the first books I read when I was diagnosed was Gilda Radner's. She did the same thing at the end, just as sadly and ineffectively.

In another discussion on Science Based Medicine, btw, that same surgeon would almost certainly not agree that she "should have gone ketogenic" instead.

Having experienced the trials of cancer with a few close family members and a friend, I understand that this is the ultimate "one size does not fit all." Not sure anyone was saying outright that Jessica should have done something else. Mainly, given the news of her passing and her attempts to fight this foe naturally, we were wondering whether there are other protocols not yet tried extensively on humans that might help in the future. In the instance where we have learned about how cancer survives primarily using glucose for fuel, it gave us something to wonder about how a ketogenic approach might have a role in future treatment. There is little conclusive evidence at this time. More needs to be done. Unfortunately, the brevity of posts on a forum prevent us from thoroughly stating our feelings and leave posts open to a wide range of interpretations. No disrespect for anyone and their loved ones going through these trials was intended.
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  #28   ^
Old Wed, Mar-04-15, 11:53
Bonnie OFS Bonnie OFS is offline
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My slow Internet won't let me read Science Blogs today, but apparently Brian Clement is facing charges of some sort.

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2...alth-institute/

The feeling that more should have/could have been done is really common after a death, especially cancer as it isn't really understood. When my grandfather died from cancer (don't know what kind) my mother lamented that she should have fed him more carrot juice - this was in 1971 & carrot juice was the natural cure of the day. When mom was dying of cancer I was ready to kill the doctor who kept telling her, "Don't worry - it's a slow-growing cancer." Until suddenly it wasn't & it was too late for surgery.

We know a man who is dying of cancer & finally gave up on all the quackery & trips to Mexico for a "cure." What's sad is that he is relatively young (50s) and there was a real possibility that conventional cancer treatments might have helped. Another victim of quackery - daughter of a woman we know - used Gerson therapy along with conventional medicine. But her cancer was too far gone for anything to help.
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  #29   ^
Old Wed, Mar-04-15, 12:50
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teaser teaser is offline
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Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
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Dr. Jackie Campisi has a video about her experience at Hippocrates, it's on that blog Bonnie posted. The blogger disagrees with her claims that Hippocrates actually did her any good, but I found this comment she made about her pre-Hippocrates attempts at a raw vegan diet interesting;

Quote:
"we started eating fruits and vegetables and lots of healthy things but we didn't know that the combination of those things and the sugars in fruits could be so detrimental"


The dangerous quackery here might be in that these treatments are sometimes used instead of conventional care, rather than that they're used at all. Some cancers are very treatable, skipping these treatments in favour of any kind of low sugar, low calorie diet, rather than using them in conjunction with diet just doesn't make sense.
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  #30   ^
Old Wed, Mar-04-15, 13:49
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mike_d mike_d is offline
Grease is the word!
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Plan: PSMF/IF
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Location: Alamo city, Texas
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SBM also espouses
Quote:
Eat a variety of foods. Not too much. Mostly plants.
Shades of PCRM?

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org...ing/#more-33133

Last edited by mike_d : Wed, Mar-04-15 at 15:46.
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