Okay, I admit it, I don’t know everything. I was reading some “keto” recipes to The Hubs and he asked “what is keto?” I answered that it’s basically LCHF with a reimagined label.

But then I got to thinking maybe I don’t understand it, and I hate it when I don’t know something I think I should know.

Any insight/wisdom? Thank you.

lol, I think you've got it.

Atkins oks eating more meat rather than binge on the forbitten foods.

But ulitmately, extra fat makes the system work better.

Remeber at the time that the original book was written, fats were a four letter word. IMO he made his diet acceptable by saying fill up on meats. Which is still valid.

He also recommends serving up meals with plenty of fats and oils, so I dont really see LC as different than keto.

Because both are keto!

Atkins said the more fats we ate, the more weight loss resulted. In reality, eating until satiated is not enough for many. FOllowing a carefully counted proportion of meats, fats and carbs is necessary to get the desired weight loss.

Atkins mentions counting calories too for those that need it and FF.

Just remember that the difference between one who is LCHF and one who is pursuing a ketogenic approach can be small, but a keto approach emphasizes burning our own body fat as primary fuel over glucose by encouraging the natural production of ketones by eating a very limited amount of carbs. Ketones provide fuel for our bodies in the absence of consumed carbs (exogenous sugars converted to glucose), in fact, all cells in our bodies can use ketones for fuel with the exception of red blood cells (erythrocytes). When humans strictly limit the carbs consumed, ketones are produced as a substitute to satisfy energy requirements. This is a natural process that is common during sleep when glucose stores run low unless one overloads on carbs. Note that glucose is never completely absent, as we are also adept at making glucose from protein and fat, but the production of ketones is also active during these times.

I'll state first that I have not read an Atkins book. Can you point out in a book and page where he said this? Or is it more of a general idea he had?

Back to Ketogenic Diet, from what I have read on the internets and here on this forum a KD was originally used as a treatment for some stubborn forms of childhood epilepsy.

From our infallible, trusted source, other than Facebook; Wikipedia -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketogenic_diet



The buzz word "Keto" seems to have taken on a whole Meme now and can mean just about anything

I think that might be why I put my diet as "ketosis." Some keto groups tsk the idea of chasing ketones. Which I'm fine with, but then, why call it keto?

I feel better/maintain better on a ketogenic diet. But I don't know if that's because it's ketogenic, or for any number of other biochemical etc. changes that are going to occur alongside the ketones when I eat at ketogenic ratios. For me, basic low carb without worrying fat/protein ratios makes more sense for however far it takes you, once you're there, you can figure out whether being extra fussy in one way or another is worth it.

Thud, I have several copies and have given away copies and now wish I had not. There is a LOT in his books, and each edition was rewritten a little or a lot, but the title did not change. It's like reading an encyclopedia--and Im not up to do that right now. If I find it though, I will let you know.

This website summarized some of the differences, but he could have stopped right at the first box.



https://ketogenic.com/faq/what-is-t...ketogenic-diet/

The Atkins Induction phase is a Ketogenic Diet, and if you stick with that type of plan, as done with Dr Westman's clinic Diet, you will continue to be in ketosis.

The Charlie Foundation has a good summary of five types of Ketogenic diets, starting with the strict 4:1 ratio version used for epilepsy.
https://charliefoundation.org

I hope thread hijacks are ok. I just wondered I have measurable urine ketones up to 50 net carbs per day. Does that mean that it's still a ketogenic diet for me? If so wouldn't that make ketogenic diet a relative term?

When my thyroid levels were low my dr had me eating 1000cal and 10 carbs a day for a month. I didn't lose any weight. If insulin isn't the cause in that case what causes a hypothyroid person to not lose weight?

Yup, if it keeps you in ketosis, for you it's a ketogenic diet. You can still talk about how ketogenic the diet is, all else equal, induction will be more ketogenic than 50 grams of carb a day in any one individual, etc.

Speaking of going off-topic--there are mouse studies where researchers knock out glucagon or glucagon signalling in type 1 diabetic mice. These mice make no insulin, they should waste away. Knock out glucagon, and they don't. Insulin isn't just a storage/anabolic hormone, it's also an anti-catabolic hormone. Keep insulin the same but lower thyroid or leptin, and things shift more towards net fat storage.

Wait, did they give the rats insulin? Can you link study, i'd love to read more about it.

I once threw myself (a type 1) into diabetic ketoacidosis, with normal blood sugar. I was stressed and eating very little (and was lowcarb), plus using an experimental drug that lowered blood sugar by extracting it through kidneys. It turned out drug caused dka in some typs 1s, as needing almost no insulin causes dka (even if blood sugar isn't elevated). It's rare to have this occur, but it can happen in right circumstances.
For example, even if my blood sugar is a little low during intense exercise, if I discontinue insulin for more than 2 hours, I have to eat carbs to use a little insulin, or risk dka....
Endurance athletes with type 1 are most common way this can occur.

teaser you are amazing!

http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/content/60/2/391



They don't have zero insulin, just very low levels.

I have seen enough attempts at defining a ketogenic diet to conclude there is no definitive answer. In my mind, any diet that shifts your body to using ketones as its primary fuel is ketogenic. However, ketones as a primary fuel is not the same as the presence of ketones. As an example, I did a test on myself where I increased carbs to about 80 to 100g per day, and cut fat. That resulted in eating about 1000 to 1200 calories per day for a couple weeks. Because my calorie intake was less than my calories used, my body had to make up the difference by creating ketones from stored fat. During those weeks of eating low calorie, I was surprised to see a more consistent presence of breath and urine ketones than I measured eating low carb "keto". Even so, the ketones were only supplemental to the primary fuel of glucose, so I would not consider that a ketogenic diet. Those couple weeks not only convinced me that low calorie was much harder than low carb, but also gave me a better understanding of how ketones are used.

Thanks for link!
When I went dka i had very low level of insulin, but not zero.... When I am doing endurance events that can last 12-16 hours, then I will stop insulin and eat about 15g carb to use insulin, if blood sugar is still hovering at low end after 2 hours of no insulin.

But yes. Makes sense rats had even just a little insulin on board.... I'm type 1, we actually do make some insulin. The beta cells are still produced, but immune system destroys them. in fact, some times cells are produced faster than body kills them, and we experience "honeymoons" where suddenly we need less insulin, as a result .

I assumed when they made rats diabetic, they were able to kill all bets cells, so they made ZERO insulin.

Again, thank you!

Good thoughts.

Ya, a distinction should be made between a diet that is high fat and low carb to the point it encourages the body to keep a detectable amount of ketones in the blood vs. a starvation diet where the body must burn fat and as a consequence has ketones in the blood. I would not call the later a "keto diet" even if the definitive measure of ketosis is satisfied.

Of course there is the confounding case where one is low carb and high calorie to the point that hunger is satisfied, calories eaten are below the metabolic rate and body fat is being burned. That is the case where all us dieters want to be.

Frankly I think this is a discussion born by the fact that there really aren't enough nouns to go around between the dieters, performance athletes, epilepsy treaters, etc. etc. and a lack of scientific information.