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  #121   ^
Old Sun, Jan-06-19, 05:25
s93uv3h's Avatar
s93uv3h s93uv3h is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,540
 
Plan: Atkins & IF / TRE
Stats: 000/014.5/015 Male 5' 10"
BF:
Progress: 97%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
Similar to the protein table in NANY, Phinney at Virta coverts the protein formulas into how many Ounces of say meat, to eat as a man or woman at a certain weight. Net down it is a very wide range, so didn’t think about it much following NANY.
When I started using a tracker 8 months into weight loss, found it is unlikely I would be above or below the wide range given (except fasting).
https://blog.virtahealth.com/how-much-protein-on-keto/
^ That's a great article and explains a lot. But how does an average person compute this? Take this excerpt from the Why we don’t use ‘macros’ or ‘percentages’ to guide your protein intake para:

For example, let’s say that a 5’6” woman with a reference weight of 60 kg starts out at 82 kg (180 lbs) and eats 1300 kcal per day (about a 1000 kcal/day deficit). Her recommended daily protein intake would be 1.5 X 60 = 90 g/day, totaling 360 kcal.

What does that look like in real food? How did this 5'6" woman plan this meal, what foods did she gather? What web site did she go to to come to this ? You NEVER get this explanation. They NEVER show you the steps to achieve this 1.5 X 60 = 90 g/day, totaling 360 kcal. NOT ONCE have I seen / read an example of protein being coupled with a REAL FOOD menu.

[ caps for emphasis, not yelling lol ]

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  #122   ^
Old Mon, Jan-07-19, 04:27
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 11,479
 
Plan: Keto/DrWestman/IF/DrFung
Stats: 222/172/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 94%
Location: NC
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This may confuse further since Ted Naiman is one of the higher protein guys, but he puts food graphics next to his P:E ratio. Something like his memes help?
http://burnfatnotsugar.com/ProteinEnergy.html.

Since Dr Westman keeps the program so simple, and believes in humans innate ability to get the amount of protein they need, I did nothing more than:
Goal to Eat 14oz (my target amount at 1.5kg per K LBM), eat whatever I like, say 2 eggs, 6oz can salmon for lunch, 6 Oz beef for dinner = 14 Oz protein. If I went over or under, and I went over often in the first couple of years, no worries, still in a pretty wide range.
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  #123   ^
Old Mon, Jan-07-19, 05:02
s93uv3h's Avatar
s93uv3h s93uv3h is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,540
 
Plan: Atkins & IF / TRE
Stats: 000/014.5/015 Male 5' 10"
BF:
Progress: 97%
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^ I like simple.

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  #124   ^
Old Mon, Jan-07-19, 08:05
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 3,426
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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When I first started going very low carb, I spent a lot of time calculating optimum protein, particularly after reading Phinney and Volek's protein lifestyle recommendations. I realized that the range of protein consumption for me was very forgiving with some of Bikman's and Naiman's recent studies and recommendations making a lot of sense. This WOL only works for me when it's simple. I no longer spend time calculating macros in detail, especially protein. While I try to stay in ketosis and be in fat burning mode most of the time (that's when I feel and perform best), I no longer worry about gluconeogenesis due to protein consumption, as it takes a lot to move me out of fat burning mode. I truly believe protein consumption is very forgiving if you're eating clean and consistently with everything else.
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  #125   ^
Old Mon, Jan-07-19, 08:47
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 13,851
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 255/214/153 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 40%
Location: Massachusetts
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I too dont worry about too much protein. IT is better for me to fill up on protein a nd fat than the alternatives. Meaning, better to eat up on meats and fats first to better decrease the chance of cruising the kitchen for carby foods.
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  #126   ^
Old Mon, Jan-07-19, 09:20
s93uv3h's Avatar
s93uv3h s93uv3h is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,540
 
Plan: Atkins & IF / TRE
Stats: 000/014.5/015 Male 5' 10"
BF:
Progress: 97%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GRB5111
When I first started going very low carb, I spent a lot of time calculating optimum protein, particularly after reading Phinney and Volek's protein lifestyle recommendations. I realized that the range of protein consumption for me was very forgiving with some of Bikman's and Naiman's recent studies and recommendations making a lot of sense. This WOL only works for me when it's simple. I no longer spend time calculating macros in detail, especially protein. While I try to stay in ketosis and be in fat burning mode most of the time (that's when I feel and perform best), I no longer worry about gluconeogenesis due to protein consumption, as it takes a lot to move me out of fat burning mode. I truly believe protein consumption is very forgiving if you're eating clean and consistently with everything else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ms Arielle
I too dont worry about too much protein. IT is better for me to fill up on protein a nd fat than the alternatives. Meaning, better to eat up on meats and fats first to better decrease the chance of cruising the kitchen for carby foods.
Great advice - thanks!

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  #127   ^
Old Tue, Feb-26-19, 16:03
s93uv3h's Avatar
s93uv3h s93uv3h is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,540
 
Plan: Atkins & IF / TRE
Stats: 000/014.5/015 Male 5' 10"
BF:
Progress: 97%
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Three lined up, ready to go:

The Longevity Solution: Rediscovering Centuries-Old Secrets to a Healthy, Long Life, Jason Fung, James Dinicolantonio (2019)

Brain Food: The Surprising Science of Eating for Cognitive Power, Lisa Mosconi (2018)

The Great American Health Hoax: The Surprising Truth about How Modern Medicine Keeps You Sick--How to Choose a Healthier, Happier, and Disease-Free Life, Raymond Francis (2015)
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  #128   ^
Old Tue, Feb-26-19, 17:57
LCer4Life's Avatar
LCer4Life LCer4Life is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 672
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 155/128/125 Female 63
BF:33.2/28.7%/24%
Progress: 90%
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I am presently reading Grain Brain (2018) by Dr. David Perlmutter. It is a wealth of information. Really enjoying it. I just ordered last week The Hormone Fix’s: Burn Fat Naturally, Boost Energy, Sleep Better, and Stop Hot Flashes, the Keto Way by Dr. Anna Cabeca. It is a Keto Green approach. Saw on Dr. Perlmutter page.
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  #129   ^
Old Thu, Feb-28-19, 08:38
s93uv3h's Avatar
s93uv3h s93uv3h is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,540
 
Plan: Atkins & IF / TRE
Stats: 000/014.5/015 Male 5' 10"
BF:
Progress: 97%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s93uv3h
The Longevity Solution: Rediscovering Centuries-Old Secrets to a Healthy, Long Life, Dr. Jason Fung, Dr. James Dinicolantonio (2019)
Finished this yesterday.

Very similar to Valter Longo's The Longevity Diet.

A few long chapters on protein:

chapter 4 dietary protein
chapter 5 plant versus animal protein
chapter 6 the optimal amount of protein

Same old story, they throw grams per kilogram of body weight at you but don't tell you what it is. Or how to look it up. Or how to compute it. Or what it looks like in the real world - how many eggs, pork chops, burger patties, oz of nuts is that anyway? It's a mystery. I have yet to see an article, study, book, blog post, forum thread, etc, that shows what 0.8 gram per kilogram per day looks like in a menu with real food listed. The 0.8 gram per kilogram per day btw is the rda set by the Institute of Medicine of the National "Academy of Sciences to meet minimum requirements.

Lots on performance eating, which is something new for Fung, from the past books I've read of his.

Great chapter on salt - reading it, you don't need to read Dr. James Dinicolantonio's The Salt Fix lol.

Great chapter on fasting (of course).

Great chapters on red wine and coffee and tea.

Quite a few product placement buy this brand with web site listed lol.

He takes a few shots at Atkins in the protein section. I just ignored it and moved on.

At the end, in the full plan for healthy aging chapter, under step 5 eat more natural fats, they say:

To reduce the oxidation of the omega-6 and cholesterol in eggs, you should cook them over easy of over medium; do not scramble them.

...Never heard that before.

It's printed on the same heavy paper (equals a heavy book!) with lots of pics, so the 222 pages (to the end notes / references) are really less than that with all of the blank pages. That's why it was a quick read!

I have a library and don't need my own reference copy (I have Longo's book ).

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  #130   ^
Old Thu, Feb-28-19, 11:58
CityGirl8 CityGirl8 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 856
 
Plan: Protein Power, IF
Stats: 238/204/145 Female 5'8"
BF:53.75%/46.6%/25%
Progress: 37%
Location: PNW
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s93uv3h
Same old story, they throw grams per kilogram of body weight at you but don't tell you what it is. Or how to look it up. Or how to compute it. Or what it looks like in the real world - how many eggs, pork chops, burger patties, oz of nuts is that anyway? It's a mystery. I have yet to see an article, study, book, blog post, forum thread, etc, that shows what 0.8 gram per kilogram per day looks like in a menu with real food listed. The 0.8 gram per kilogram per day btw is the rda set by the Institute of Medicine of the National "Academy of Sciences to meet minimum requirements.

...He takes a few shots at Atkins in the protein section. I just ignored it and moved on.
Dr. Fung recommends a very low amount of protein compared to most other doctors. His advice has some relevance, depending on what your goals are. In a blog post about protein, he says "Remember, that if you want to lose weight, you should be eating less protein [than recommended] so that you can break some down." Basically, his argument is that if you under eat protein while losing weight, your body will naturally catabolized excess skin, etc. For his weight loss patients, he recommends 0.6g/kg of body weight (total, not lean mass), instead of the 0.8g for maintenance. I think his argument makes sense, but I'm not sure about his numbers.
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  #131   ^
Old Thu, Feb-28-19, 12:51
Meme#1's Avatar
Meme#1 Meme#1 is offline
Posts: 12,367
 
Plan: Atkins DANDR
Stats: 210/194/160 Female 5'4"
BF:
Progress: 32%
Location: Texas
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Quote:
Since Dr Westman keeps the program so simple, and believes in humans innate ability to get the amount of protein they need, I did nothing more than:
Goal to Eat 14oz (my target amount at 1.5kg per K LBM), eat whatever I like, say 2 eggs, 6oz can salmon for lunch, 6 Oz beef for dinner = 14 Oz protein. If I went over or under, and I went over often in the first couple of years, no worries, still in a pretty wide range.


This is exactly where my protein ends up almost every day....
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  #132   ^
Old Thu, Feb-28-19, 14:57
s93uv3h's Avatar
s93uv3h s93uv3h is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,540
 
Plan: Atkins & IF / TRE
Stats: 000/014.5/015 Male 5' 10"
BF:
Progress: 97%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CityGirl8
Dr. Fung recommends a very low amount of protein compared to most other doctors. His advice has some relevance, depending on what your goals are. In a blog post about protein, he says "Remember, that if you want to lose weight, you should be eating less protein [than recommended] so that you can break some down." Basically, his argument is that if you under eat protein while losing weight, your body will naturally catabolized excess skin, etc. For his weight loss patients, he recommends 0.6g/kg of body weight (total, not lean mass), instead of the 0.8g for maintenance. I think his argument makes sense, but I'm not sure about his numbers.
you have to be able to know how much of something is satisfactory - what is looks like, how to plan for it (menu, ingredients, etc.), before you can add to it, or cut some out. how many pork chops? how many eggs? it's a mystery.

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  #133   ^
Old Thu, Feb-28-19, 15:03
deirdra's Avatar
deirdra deirdra is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,087
 
Plan: HF/vLC/GF,CF,SF
Stats: 197/136/150 Female 66 inches
BF:
Progress: 130%
Location: Alberta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CityGirl8
Dr. Fung recommends a very low amount of protein. In a blog post about protein
Fung is one of the few who makes it clear that when he says "body weight" he is talking about total current body weight. Rosedale and others say "body weight" but mean "lean body mass" (which could be half of an obese person's total weight). Others mean "ideal weight". In Rosedale's talk it wasn't until the Q&A, after he was done confusing people with "body weight" that he clarified what weight he actually used in the calculation. 0.6, 0.8, 1.0, 1.2, 1.5 can all be reasonable depending on what weight you are using; if the person is sedentary or very active; and lean, fat or obese.
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  #134   ^
Old Thu, Feb-28-19, 16:59
CityGirl8 CityGirl8 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 856
 
Plan: Protein Power, IF
Stats: 238/204/145 Female 5'8"
BF:53.75%/46.6%/25%
Progress: 37%
Location: PNW
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s93uv3h
you have to be able to know how much of something is satisfactory - what is looks like, how to plan for it (menu, ingredients, etc.), before you can add to it, or cut some out. how many pork chops? how many eggs? it's a mystery.

Well, I use a food tracker and a scale (or divide up the amount on a package of meat that's already weighed to how many serving I'm making out of it). If you do this consistently at home, you'll get enough practice to eyeball it when you're eating out. Knowing some general rules of thumb, like there are roughly 7g of protein in an ounce of meat, is helpful, too.

But I don't think there's an easy answer to questions like "How many pork chops?" How big are the pork chops? How thick? Are they 2-inch-thick chops that you cut yourself from the loin? Or 3/4-inch bone-in chops?

This is what those graphics with the deck of cards and the palm of your hand comparisons are trying to get at.
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  #135   ^
Old Thu, Feb-28-19, 17:26
s93uv3h's Avatar
s93uv3h s93uv3h is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,540
 
Plan: Atkins & IF / TRE
Stats: 000/014.5/015 Male 5' 10"
BF:
Progress: 97%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CityGirl8
Knowing some general rules of thumb, like there are roughly 7g of protein in an ounce of meat, is helpful, too.
...now that is helpful - Thank you!

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