Fruit is supposed to be only 2 servings a day-- families hear 5 servings of fruits and vegies and then load up on 5+ fruits. Legumes-- even Dr Amen is cautious about these; better to put in the occasionally catagory; and he's a brain doctor. And you know where " whole grains" can go!

Ya, propaganda.

Many years ago scientists were amazed that the Inuits (then called Eskimos) ate a diet almost entirely of saturated fat with a little protein and no carbs but yet managed to avoid heart attacks and cancer -- that is until they were introduced to the S.A.D.

Sounds like evidence that Keto is good for us and we don't need fruit and legumes.

But I do think taking a mega-multivitamin that supplies the nutrients that fruits and legumes offer without the carbs is probably a good bet. It might be healthier, and if not, the worst effect would be expensive urine.

Bob

I agree Bob. HOWEVER, the Inuit ate a pesticide free whale back in the day. Today, the carcasses are considered a bio hazard. AND all their meats had high levels of vitamins like C, and others because of the food chain starting with plankton, algae, kelp and moss and lichen. Grass fed basically.

We dont NEEd legumes and fruits, but Im now concerned that because their level of pesticide is significantly lower, that is all the more reason the government will continue to push meatless.

But the legumes and fruits fill the dirty dozen and then some. They are laced with herbicides and pesticides thanks to factory farming.

There is no safe way to eat anymore. The safest would be 100% organic and that's expensive.

Even then the groundwater, tap water, and bottled water are full of the same toxins and poisons.

The food isn't the problem, corporate farming is. At least that's how I see it.

I eat mostly 100% grass-fed organic beef, avoid chicken, and am careful about the pork I buy. That seems to me the best way to keep the pesticide levels under control.

But we all have a right to do it the way we feel is best.

Bob

I no longer think so. I'm a fan of supplements, but don't see the point of a mega-vitamin when we really don't know the upper range, only the lower. It's set to prevent diseases of malnutrition that they knew about last century. So it's like sprinkling baking soda on the cat litter instead of cleaning it

Doesn't hurt, but doesn't do nearly enough.

And it's all about absorption to me now, thanks to the work of Dr. Ede. A lab reading showing the level of a nutrient is not at all the same as how much of that nutrient my body can use. As one happy carnivore exulted: "Supplement magnesium? On this diet, my body is swimming in it."

After doing very well with Keto, I take K2/D3, 4k daily of niacin, b complex, and 5g of C. And, often, pregnenolone, especially for sleep.

But that's it! Mind you, I took enough supplements to "fill up my storage" and then some. But I think it all helped to bring me to a better place today.

Regarding animal fat and pesticide use, I still follow Dr. Jack Kruse's Epi-Paleo Plan, which features lots of seafood. Many people tested and found they didn't have any signs of this in their body, however. Perhaps our understanding of such contamination is only from a population of SAD eaters. Perhaps it accumulates differently than it does in a population of Keto eaters.

Small fish are more economical. I look for wild caught. I buy grassfed hamburger and organic ground pork. Sure, sometimes the budget is about basic and cheap, but I won't buy any other kind of hamburger Quality being way too inconsistent.

And yes, factory farming should be illegal, for millions and millions of reasons.

Which is why I have really dug in on gardening. To learn how to produce chemical free produce.

Started fall onions a few weeks ago; kale still going strong, but need to start new ones; almost time to start fall lettuces. With a bit of sluthing on the internet easy to find vegies that will grow nearly all year long, even if its really just dormant like in a refrigerator. Trying to get a 10 x10 green house up.

I wish I could.

I live on an ancient sand dune, 32' high (a mountain in Florida), between a protected wetlands park and a salt water estuary. The "soil" is made of white, sterile, sugar sand. Not much grows here, I plant native vegetation and non-invasive plants that do well with almost no nutrients and an extended dry season.

I'll spoil a plant for a year or two with water, but then it's on it's own, if it doesn't make it, it doesn't belong here. I couldn't even get a coconut palm to grow. I did plant quite a few Live Oak, Poinciana, Sea Grape, Gumbo Limbo and a few other trees to help add oxygen and sequester CO2 to help offset deforestation in my own way. Ferns under the trees keep them happy plus I get a lot of shade.

We get a lot of rain in the Summer and from November through April very little, so whatever we plant has to live under those conditions.

To grow crops would need a lot of fertilizer, which would run downhill into the wetlands and an already in trouble estuary (where the baby fish breed). To protect the estuary there is a fertilizer ban where I live all summer anyway, so I couldn't if I wanted to (and I don't want to, the fish have to live too).

I compost, but we don't create enough waste to do much up here on the sugar sand.

I agree small fish, low mercury varieties, only wild caught, and I shy away from Pacific fish due to the radiation.

I support small farms and other businesses as much a possible, but in today's world, that's difficult to do for many products.

To get back on thread, is the keto diet good for you?

Who knows?

You read so much info with pseudo-scientific sound study names that are written with an agenda it's difficult to know what to believe. You have to do your homework, choose one, and hope it's right.

I chose keto decades ago (it was called Atkins Induction back then) and so far it seems to be working. I don't get sick, I'm on zero medications, and a heart doc says I have the heart/circulatory system of someone 20 years my junior. So It seems good for me.

But if one diet worked for everybody, there would only need to be one diet book.

Bob

Bob, many people use pots to grow food plants. Keeps the valuable soil contained; and others are going to hydroponics.

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Im all for keto if that works for you; for others it is vegetarian. IMHO it all comes down to what the body needs to be healthy.

I never forgot one of Dr Atkins examples of a patient that was tall and trim to the point of thin as I remember the story. He had a heart attack. Drove home health is MORE than obesity. IT is about the inner health of the body, and good food is the main source of good health. Learning what is "good food" has been the challenge.... too many fingers in the pie. I think Ive got it now...... for now, until more info comes down the pipeline.

Yes, if there was one diet that worked for everyone, there would only need to be one diet book.

Sometimes it's funny how for the same species how different bodies have different nutritional needs and sensitivities.

I have two married vegan friends. They eat the same thing and about the same amount as far as I can tell. They work together and have pretty much the same activity level. One is overweight and the other slim.

Hmmm, growing in a pot or hydroponics. That is definitely food for thought. Thanks!

Bob

Bob,

Like you I've been eating to ketosis for a long time. 1972 in fact. I'm in extremely good health and (I think) older than you. I've come to the conclusion that older people need to eat even more fat than younger ones.
Can't claim to have stuck strictly to Plan all these years. I'm only human.

My body needs to eat to ketosis. Period. If I get sick, I'll post it in my J.

Another possibility you might consider is Square Foot Gardening, a concept that Mel Bartholomew wrote a book about in the early 80's, but he's written at least one updated book since then - seems that he eventually came up with a soil mix that minimizes the need for watering, and eliminates the need for fertilizer. You can google Square Foot Gardening, and read an overview of the system on wikipedia.



I remember having two 4'X4' planting beds at one place we lived back in the mid-80's, and even though they didn't provide an abundance of vegetables (primarily due to the varieties I chose to plant at the time), I was surprised at how much those small plots produced, especially compared to how little time was involved in caring for them.

Thanks, but it'll have to be pots.

I don't want anything running off into the lagoon.

In the summer we get torrential rains, sometimes a couple of inches in an hour, then the sun comes out and bakes us again.

During the T-Storms I can see water rushing down the road to the lagoon like a small river.

I just haven't figured out if there is anything I'd eat that I can grow in pots yet. Too busy working to put that much time in it.

I'm supposed to be retired but I need that reason to live, and for me the reason is to play music and to write music software. I'm writing some software now, and it's very time consuming. But IMO better than watching TV (which I haven't done since the late 1980s)

It's probably late in the season to start growing anyway so I have time for research for next year. I like the idea of growing food. It just seems right.

I don't eat much in the way of veggies. Perhaps peanuts?

Even salads put weight on me and all I put on for dressing is red wine vinegar and olive oil. I'm the only person in my family under 300 pounds and I have to work at that.

Bob

Interesting to hear I'm not the only one who has trouble with weight gain from vegetables. Low carb ones. The "experts" can debate what they want about diet, but for myself there's no question that a low carb diet is best for control of diabetes because I'd be declared T2 diabetic if I didn't avoid nearly all carbs.

Bob, maybe an herb garden.... ?? To spice up your meats. Chives, scallions, parsley.....ginger....

Florida is where most grow over the winter and not in the summer. Too hot in the summer.

Good idea.

A lot of he winter vegetables grown in Florida are basically hydroponic in the ground.

They plow up fields of a limestone called "Miami OOlite" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami_Limestone add lots of water and fertilizer and feed much of the country.

Where I grew up, near Ft. Lauderdale they use drained former Everglades swampland. But as more and more people move into the area, the farming areas are giving way to urban sprawl. There aren't many of those left.

Bob